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The Possibility Of Worgen Children Discussion Thread.
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Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
- The transformation was caused by the scythe of elune, when belryssa took the fang of goldrinn and attached it to her scythe, and the druids of the pack who used the wolf form tried to use it to control goldrinns fury, and instead were transformed into humanoid wolves, the first worgen. This would both argue against it being a druid form, but more akin to a mutation, and also could be argued that this shows that goldrinn was behind the curse, and, as an ancient, they could be seen as his "children race", similar to agamaggan the boar god creating the quilboar. Um....no; the Alpha wanted his new people to be stronger, more powerful, and greater then they were, and have the fury of the Pack form completely under their control....the Scythe of Elune also had that little unfortunate side effect of making all of the Worgen after the Alpha become his own personal brain washed servants. The actual Druid form was the Wolf form of the Pack; a form that Malfurion himself could not control and needed Cenarius to put the beat down on him to get out of it.
Edit:
Recap of the actual Curse of the Worgen comics.
As for the topic: we honestly won't know for a good long time, since it hasn't been clear if this is a blood curse or not: If it isn't, then the only new Worgen will be showing up is if they undergo either being bitten or ingesting the blood of another Worgen. If it is a blood curse, then any child born to a worgen parent will have it within them, and will either emerge when they are first born, or show up later in life.
And I thought they weren't able to be raised in undeath, by the Valk's at least, because they weren't human anymore and the Val'kyr can't work their magic on them. But there were a few actual dead worgen raised up by 'pure' necromancy(aka CoD/Lich King magic), so that aspect should still work on them even now.
Post by
867472
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Post by
Morec0
For the portion of this that involves the Nature of the Worgen Curse (Blood Curse over Magic) I'd like to direct some attention
here if at all possible
(Not trying to necro, just bringing up old information for a new discussion).
I think that the Curse, though the years and the fact that it was indeed rooted in nature magic, is not magical in nature to the fullest extent, but while there is indeed some magic involved it is a very physical and DNA-related thing. The bitten-player character seems to mistake the signs of the Curse for an infection, the discoloration specifically could cause this, and the fact that it took a good deal of time for it to make a full effect (which is not the case with such things as polymorph). The magic of it is still strong enough to make their ressurection difficult, clearly, but not strong enough to make it impossible - see DK's.
As for worgen assimilating humans, I think that it just hasn't been touched upon in-game yet. The possibility that there is a group of Gilneans that sees what happened to them as a form of evolution (not used in that exact phrasing, maybe, but you get the idea) and not only embrace it but attempt to convince others to do the same. If anything, it would be interesting for RPing.
All in all, I think the Worgen Curse is something like the HIV virus; spread through bodily fluids. This would mean that not only would the child of a worgen be a worgen, but the uninfected parent could also be at risk of contracting the curse. This could explain how blood transfers it as well.
If I've missed anything do tell so I can give it some thought.
Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Interestingly though, while I can't find the link now, this official cataclysm strategy guide said that modern day worgen are quote "the descendants of the original worgen who were sealed in the emerald dream". Which implies there has been some mating going on in the emerald dream, and this is from an official cataclysm guide in a magazine by blizzard. Could have been something just put in...since the Worgen(read the transformed Night Elves) in the Dreams were all locked away in a type of stasis, so there wouldn't have been any actual mating happening. They can be considered to be descendants since they have the same Curse as the first generation of them; doesn't have to be actual genetic relations.
Edit: Also, don't forget, the new lore; in this case Curse of the Worgen, would trump something written for a strategy guide.
Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
. It's a question of, would the child be born in human form, or would they, being born as worgen, not have a human form at all, since they were never human to begin with?
I don't think the worgen species will officially start until a male and female worgen mate, and successfully give birth to worgen offspring. If this happens, then they are officially a new species. Interestingly though, while I can't find the link now, this official cataclysm strategy guide said that modern day worgen are quote "the descendants of the original worgen who were sealed in the emerald dream". Which implies there has been some mating going on in the emerald dream, and this is from an official cataclysm guide in a magazine by blizzard.
Also I'll take a look at that link.
While short-lived, the thread gives a few interesting thoughts.
As for the children's form, however, I think that untill there have been a few generation matings (going back to what you said about species) and a few "purebred" (as pure as the worgen will get, that is) are created, the base genetics for them will be human. Therefor I can see them being born as human,
maybe
with a few worgen characteristics (harier, some wolf-like features), but untill they hit puberty and their hormones trigger the Curse's genetics (something I belive I touch upon in the linked thread) they will not transform.
As for mating in the dream, there could have been some sleep... *ahem*"walking" involved. This is more of tongue-in-cheek speculation, of course. But I wouldn't see it as impossible that there was some mating, they were druids themselves - albeit mindless ones - so there may have been some level of control over their bodies they learned to maintain. (again, though, tongue-in-cheek, unbaised speculation)
Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
For the Dream, I don't think so Morec, since the Worgen who escaped before the Alpha(Argual's group) were woken up out of the stasis and went into a mindless state, which is what made it easy for them to be manipulated at first....and why they went bad so quickly.
There's also the fact that Gilnean version of the Curse is very much diluted compared to the one that existed in the path: When a Night Elf was bitten by the Alpha or one of his transformed by the Scythe of Elune worgen, the transformation into a Worgen was instant, rather then drawn out and taking days like it did in the starting zone. Those who were bitten were also completely under the control of the Alpha, where the Gilneans can still be themselves.
It's also entirely possible the Curse has to be 'accepted'; aka being bitten or willing ingesting the Blood of a Worgen, and may not be able to be passed along through genetics. As said, will have to wait till we actually learn the truth there.
Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
you raised some valid points but you made a critical mistake here
However, in the same ask the cdev, they said that the worgen curse is both nature and holy magic in origin (holy from elune, nature from goldrinn?) and this is also why they are
unable to be raised into undeath
.
wrong wrong wrong.
This is a common mistake derived from the silverpine quest-chains. Worgens are NOT immune to undeath, or plagues or even diseases.
A: They are not immune to plagues because after they won the battle for gilneas city (Where liam dies) the forsaken retaliated by bombing the entire city with blight. If they were immune to it, they would had stayed there, but they left, knowing fully well that they'd die if they breathed that crap.
And B: they are not immune to being raised into undeath because Undead Worgen DO exist, both in the old (now removed) silverpine, grizzly hills, and the player worgen DK. The reason those refugees from hillsbrad took worgen blood to prevent being risen as forsaken by the val'kyr was because the val'kyr can only raise humans as undead. That's it really.
As I've explained in other posts, Val'kyrs can only ress Vrykuls, and those who descend from them (Humans), the other races are immune to their resurrection. This is commented on this
quest
. Therefore, those refugees taking the blood, didn't became immune to undeath, they simply stopped being human, and thus became immune to VALKYR-INDUCED undeath. After all, the alliance did sent non-human SI:7 operatives to pyrewood village, because they knew the valks wound't be able to ress them if they died, but does that mean those dwarves, gnomes, and night elves are immune to undeath? we know they aren't.
TL;DR Being a worgen, makes you stop being human, and thus makes you immune to the val'kyr magic, that can only affect vrykuls and humans, but worgens are still very much susceptible to the standard undeath like the other races
Edit:
Also, judging by the silverpine blood drinking quest, it seems that worgen who became worgen from non-feral worgen, are automatically non-feral upon being cursed, which may mean the children of non feral worgen would be non-feral upon birth.
also wrong. Being a worgen makes someone quite crazy in the head. But if you noticed, those people in fenris island didn't actually drank directly from a cut being made into crowley, they drank vials. For all we know, those vials could had simply had worgen blood laced with Krennan's Elixir. However this elixir isn't permanent, and unless they keep drinking it, they will go nuts again. This is seen by the bloodpack worgens, who can be seen in hillsbrad, and in the alliance-version of the shadowfang keep.
Look at them and they BARELY act civilized, they almost dont wear clothes, walk on all 4 legs all the time, stalk forsaken troops and civilians alike, and in shadowfang keep, Ivar has a hard time keeping them in leash. (One of them even salivates when ivar mentions the word "Bone"
All in all, when you are a worgen you NEED krennan's elixir to remain sane, untill you've done the ritual of elune, (wich only the alliance-worgens do) that allows you to be sane enough to even go back to human for a while.
Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
What I meant was just valkyr undeath is what they're immune to, since their powers have weakened from the death of the lich king.
ermm..... wrong bro'
Valks are not weaker due to the lich king being dead. Even when he was alive, valks could only ress vrykull, that's all they've been able to do, and since humans are descended from vrykuls, they can ress humans as well, but only those 2 races. They "could" ress other races (they did brought sylvannas back to life) but doing so requires a magic so potent, that it takes their unlives to cast it, so its not wise to force them to do that save for critical individuals.
Hmm, but the bloodfang worgen seem pretty sane to me, they do talk, and do work with the stormpike without going berserk and attacking them mindlessly. They're less civilized sure, but they're sane.
I don't know how they're sane since as far as I know they didn't do the ritual, but they appear to be sane, but less civilized then gilnean worgen.
they are almost animalistic bro' you can see that if you did the horde quests in hillsbrad (and I Dont mean read the quest-text in wowpedia, actually do the quests and fight them) they act almost like animals instead of people.
While you see gilnean worgens dressed up in tuxedos, with top hats, monocles, and drinking british tea, bloodpack worgens are walking on all 4 at all times, are barely clothed with ragged pants and no shirts, salivate at the mention of bones, and overall act less like what they used to be (Humans) and more like what they are (Wolf humanoids)
That's a clear mental degradation from what they descend from, since they ARE former gilnean citizens. And what is the main diference between the bloodpack worgen and gilnean worgen? that the latter took krennan's elixir, and later did the ritual of elune, while the former did not.
That in itself was my main point, you stated that because the hillsbrad refugees drank worgen blood and didn't go crazy, all worgens can be sane from day 1. I pointed out that they drank VIALS of blood, for all we know those vials could have worgen blood laced with krennan's elixir, and they did the ritual later. Being a worgen still makes you quite animalistic if you dont take precautions.
Just look at the lycantroth worshipers in hyjal, they too act like animals.
Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Yes I was just saying they're still sane in the sense that they are not going to mindlessly attack their own allies and random people. Also weren't the lycantroth worshipers in hyjal corrupted by the dark version of goldrinn, lycanoth?
They are still sane enough that they can tell friend from foe, but their mental health is degrading, after all, they were humans, standard average humans, but almost nothing on their behaviour remans human. This indicates that unless they drink krennan's elixir, or undergo the ritual of elune, their mental health will continue to degrade untill they are fully feral worgens incapable of telling the diference between friend and foe.
as for the lycantroth worshippers, they are feral due to being worgens for prolonged periods of time without elixirs, or rituals. The fact that they worship a corrupt entity has little to do with it, as you can see other twilight hammer members worshiping other corrupt beings (Like the worshipers of aku'mai) without acting feral like animals.
so far, the only sane worgens in azeroth (Read: Worgens that dont act like animals, but as actual civilized human beings) are those of the alliance, because at the moment of infection they are administered the elixir, and later undergo the ritual of elune.
But the worgen curse in itself degrades the mind of those affected by it, turning them slowly into animalistic beings. It wont happen overnight, after all, the druids of the scyte dind't went wacko from day 1 to day 2, but it will happen eventually untill they either drink the elixir, or undergo the ritual.
also, when responding to posts made by other users, you dont have to quote the entire post. Just quote the segment you wish to point out.
by using the and the commands, and copy&pasting the specific part of a post you wish to respond to.
Post by
867472
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
So if that's true, that someone's going to need to give those bloodfang the druid ritual before they go crazy. I assume they will get the ritual done, crowley will obviously tell them that they can't go much longer without the ritual, or else they will lose their sanity.
the problem is: they want nothing to do with the alliance and SPECIALLY crowley. See, the alliance worgens and the bloodpack worgens made, an alliance of sorts (in another horde quest, which is why you really should do them) (
this quest
to be acurate)
this is extra evidenced by a line said by Ivar Bloodfang in that quest. He said:
I will prepare the pack. It will take some time to gather them all, but we will join...
for now
.
That "for now" ended the moment the Gilnean Liberation Front surrendered to the forsaken at the end of the battle for Silverpine
However, after sylvannas forced the alliance forces in silverpine to surrender, Ivar saw that as a betrayal of crowley, and thus broke off from the alliance ranks. Therefore, while the rest of the Gilnean Liberation Front, and the 7th Legion, are there in the gilnean peninsula engaged in a stalemate war with the Forsaken Forces, the Bloodpack worgens fled to Hillsbrad where they began to do hit-and-run tactics against the forsaken, and they tried to forge an official alliance with the stormpike dwarves, but this one too went south, since their plans were stolen, and their army bombed to hell.
As of this point, the bloodpack worgens are independant of the alliance, they wont attack alliance citizens simply due to the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but they don't exactly hold the alliance in the highest terms posible. For them, its simply more profitable to remain independant (as the 2 times they've joined forces with alliance troops, they've lost men)
Because of that, its unlikely that they will listen to anything the alliance tells them to do, and are even more likely to see stuff like the elixir, and the ritual as mere weakness. After all, they fully 100% embrace their curse, and love it.
if anything I foresee them becoming fully feral at some point later on and will have to be dealt with.
Post by
Adamsm
Most of the Bloodfang pack is already fairly feral; other then Ivar the Alpha, most of the rest of them don't speak out loud...and weren't the Bloodfang pack what was left of the original feral Worgens of Silverpine, with the addition of some of the survivors of Pyrewood?
Post by
Rankkor
@adamsm:
My point exactly. A few posts above, soldrethar said that "it seems that worgen who became worgen from non-feral worgen, are automatically non-feral upon being cursed" but my point remains, that regardless of who infects you, (Feral worgen, or non-feral) unless you drink the elixir or undergo the ritual of elune, the curse of the worgen will slowly degenerate you into a savage feral being over time.
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