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Most Desirable Tank
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Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Problimatic
Again, to throw proof of opinion or Skill vs class, same fight in our raid, did it just fine with a DK.
Its like asking whats the best class. All subjective. Everyones experience is different. I'm not at all saying that they are all equal, so don't take it like that either.
Unfortunately by complicated numbermathz it has been shown that death knights aren't as good of tanks at higher difficulty levels as other tanks. Despite the blood shield and death strike healing, the way our mastery works with active mitigation, in comparison to mastery of the other tanks with passive mitigation, Death Knights are often miles behind, and will fall further behind at further gear levels. Thats not to say you can't do something with a death knight tanking, but the simple fact is other tanks are better for the higher levels of raids. In 5 mans, Death Knights are possibly the best tanks, with the fact that the damage is so low, and a dk that overgears the instance will likely be overhealing extremely often just maintaining a blood shield. However unfortunately in the higher tiers of raiding death knights are further behind. Blizzard finally acknowledged it but unfortunately they aren't going to be doing anything about it other than possibly be making other tanks more like death knights in the way they tank in the future (Which is dumb.) The sad fact is, it isn't an opinion that death knights are inferior tanks in the grand scheme of things, it has been proven by many people who went through the time to do a ridiculous amount of math to show their class was behind others in terms of viability.
Post by
691268
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Problimatic
Again, to throw proof of opinion or Skill vs class, same fight in our raid, did it just fine with a DK.
Its like asking whats the best class. All subjective. Everyones experience is different. I'm not at all saying that they are all equal, so don't take it like that either.
Unfortunately by complicated numbermathz it has been shown that death knights aren't as good of tanks at higher difficulty levels as other tanks. Despite the blood shield and death strike healing, the way our mastery works with active mitigation, in comparison to mastery of the other tanks with passive mitigation, Death Knights are often miles behind, and will fall further behind at further gear levels. Thats not to say you can't do something with a death knight tanking, but the simple fact is other tanks are better for the higher levels of raids. In 5 mans, Death Knights are possibly the best tanks, with the fact that the damage is so low, and a dk that overgears the instance will likely be overhealing extremely often just maintaining a blood shield. However unfortunately in the higher tiers of raiding death knights are further behind. Blizzard finally acknowledged it but unfortunately they aren't going to be doing anything about it other than possibly be making other tanks more like death knights in the way they tank in the future (Which is dumb.) The sad fact is, it isn't an opinion that death knights are inferior tanks in the grand scheme of things, it has been proven by many people who went through the time to do a ridiculous amount of math to show their class was behind others in terms of viability.
Yall are totally missing the point. Our MT is a DK and has np problems at all. So that fact right there completely disprooves any correlation of DKs not being "up to par" for current level content. It comes down to who can play the class better.
Did you read that at all? Number evidence proving they aren't AS VIABLE. I am not saying they aren't viable. But when people are just looking for max progression and they have the option of a skilled death knight tank and an equally skilled paladin tank, 9 times out of 10 the paladin will get the position if all they care about is progression. I didn't say it was impossible to progress with a dk, simply that dks are just not quite as good of tank and numbers prove it. Use all the anecdotal evidence you wish stating one dk tank in a raid somehow proves that death knighs due to mechanics aren't behind other tanks. If you would like once the WoW site forums are back up I can find an old thread completely detailing how due to the scaling of stats alone death knights are behind other tanks, but apparently actual evidence doesn't matter. (I am not saying DKs can't tank current content, I am saying they are behind other tanks. Our first Beth'tilac kill on the first week of 4.2 was done with 2 dk tanks since both our normal tanks decided to not show up for whatever reason and people went on alts. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it doesn't mean that dks are up to par with other tanks for progression.)
Post by
691268
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Problimatic
Not even considering the fact that you have to use the death strikes properly timed in order to maximize your mitigation:
This
shows that in comparison to other tanks our mastery is severely behind other tanks. I'm not saying death knights "could be behind" as you put it. They are behind, and there is no way to get around it. They will fall even further behind as gear levels progress further. That said a good death knight is still better than a bad paladin. However you can't defeat actual mathematics with anecdotal evidence. Many prominent members of the Death Knight tanking community have actually rerolled to other classes in order to be more effective because of the lack of help from Blizzard in regards to changing Death Knight tanking. Unless you can supply some new revised sort of numbers that proves that even throuch maximizing one's survivability you don't fall behind other tanks based on gear levels, you don't have any evidence at all.
Post by
Thror
Prot paladins are honestly the best... DKs sadly are the worst... but a tank is a tank, especially for 5 mans, and you should be playing for fun =)
Eh, while you are pretty much right, I would not advise to use that kind of wording. "The best" and "the worst" are loose terms and there is a gap between them. People that read your post and do not understand the matter deeply could fill in the gaps with whatever speculation, and come to incorrect conclusions.
While Paladins are relatively on top, they are only on top in some situations, with Druids and Warriors pretty much at the same tier.
Post by
Ashelia
Prot paladins are honestly the best... DKs sadly are the worst... but a tank is a tank, especially for 5 mans, and you should be playing for fun =)
Eh, while you are pretty much right, I would not advise to use that kind of wording. "The best" and "the worst" are loose terms and there is a gap between them. People that read your post and do not understand the matter deeply could fill in the gaps with whatever speculation, and come to incorrect conclusions.
While Paladins are relatively on top, they are only on top in some situations, with Druids and Warriors pretty much at the same tier.
Considering most people have read my post and decided that DKs are somehow amazing--and that I have no clue what I'm talking about, that I'm putting down their class, and/or building this horrible opinion from anecdotal evidence--I really don't think this is an issue or that I have special abilities to make people only regard what I'm saying in a certain way. No one is walking away with this even thinking paladins are "the best," let alone thinking that means never roll a DK or warrior.
And as I've said like twenty times (but no one seems to want to acknowledge), play what you want to play, it's not like it matters if your class is .1% less as good on a certain fight or if it has a different role. Though, like I said, DKs are far below the other three, which are more in the .1% range of each other.
Of course, DKs are also GOOD for certain fights...every tank has their niche. But the original post was *what tank should I play* if I wanted to be the most in demand and consistently on top--I think people are forgetting this.(##RESPBREAK##)2##DELIM##Ashelia##DELIM##
Post by
Porcell
Many prominent members of the Death Knight tanking community have actually rerolled to other classes in order to be more effective because of the lack of help from Blizzard in regards to changing Death Knight tanking.
Who?
I find it hard to believe that long-time DK tanks, who are presumably good at what they do, are saying "We suck, I'm not going to use my DK anymore and I'm going to level up a warrior."
I mean, really? Are people -actually- doing this, or are they just saying they are.
Post by
Problimatic
Many prominent members of the Death Knight tanking community have actually rerolled to other classes in order to be more effective because of the lack of help from Blizzard in regards to changing Death Knight tanking.
Who?
I find it hard to believe that long-time DK tanks, who are presumably good at what they do, are saying "We suck, I'm not going to use my DK anymore and I'm going to level up a warrior."
I mean, really? Are people -actually- doing this, or are they just saying they are.
The person that comes to mind off the top of my head is someone named Communism who has tried getting DK tanking fixed since the cataclysm beta, and had a thread cap in a matter of hours on the tanking forum when he publicly said he had rerolled a warrior since he was tired of Blizzard not fixing the DK tanking problems. There were many in the thread that said they were also thinking of rerolling another class, but that doesn't neccessarily mean everyone did. (This was a few months ago so the details are a bit foggy, but I remember the thread capping fairly quickly. I didn't actually post in it so I can't just look at my posting history and find it.) I'm sure others have done the same, but people who play the dk class just to play the dk class and enjoy it aren't going to reroll for it. The person I was thinking of was thinking in terms of what was best for his guild, which was either dps on his death knight that he had tanked through all of wrath with, or make a new tank for his guild to have the slightly easier time progressing. (I personally still play my death knight as my main character because I love to play the death knight style despite the changes. Though I decided last tier to raid with my shaman, and have decided to take a temporary break from raiding due to irl things so I'm not 100% in the loop about things anymore.)
Post by
Porcell
The person that comes to mind off the top of my head is someone named Communism who has tried getting DK tanking fixed since the cataclysm beta, and had a thread cap in a matter of hours on the tanking forum when he publicly said he had rerolled a warrior since he was tired of Blizzard not fixing the DK tanking problems.
Not sure what the thread cap is. His thread hit 18 pages over 4 days for a total of 350+ posts.
And he's raided Firelands at least five weeks on his DK.
It's not much of "Communism's Last Stand" when you don't pull the trigger and follow through on the threat.
Post by
Problimatic
The person that comes to mind off the top of my head is someone named Communism who has tried getting DK tanking fixed since the cataclysm beta, and had a thread cap in a matter of hours on the tanking forum when he publicly said he had rerolled a warrior since he was tired of Blizzard not fixing the DK tanking problems.
Not sure what the thread cap is. His thread hit 18 pages over 4 days for a total of 350+ posts.
And he's raided Firelands at least five weeks on his DK.
It's not much of "Communism's Last Stand" when you don't pull the trigger and follow through on the threat.
Ah I was going off of mostly memory, the thread cap is 501 posts so apparently it wasn't as much as I remembered. I do know it was on the popular threads on the main page of the forums. Though looking at his warrior alt, it does have more progression than his dk
(Warrior armory)
so it appears he did live up to the switch though. He might have been dps for all I know or in an alt run or something on his dk. I'm not saying that its worth rerolling to a different class but technically speaking dk tanks are a fraction behind others.
Post by
Ashelia
A lot of DKs have wanted to reroll, or are sticking it out because of achieves and nothing else. Same stuff happened in WotLK with H: LK. DKs talked a lot, didn't end up doing it but were miserable until after they got the kill.
It sucks when your class is not as optimal as another for progression--and it seems to happen to DKs/shamans a lot.(##RESPBREAK##)2##DELIM##Ashelia##DELIM##
Post by
Axyn80
A lot of DKs have wanted to reroll, or are sticking it out because of achieves and nothing else. Same stuff happened in WotLK with H: LK. DKs talked a lot, didn't end up doing it but were miserable until after they got the kill.
It sucks when your class is not as optimal as another for progression--and it seems to happen to DKs/shamans a lot.
DK's were just engineered badly in a way. They weren't given shields, and unlike Bear Tanks, they weren't given loads of extra health and an extremely high rate to dodge to compensate for it. They got dodge
and
parry, so of course Blizzard can't make their dodge extremely high. So they got a bit creative and decided to give them a unique mastery ability, to soak up all the damage. And that makes DKs their own unique tanks in some way, but they also miss out on high levels of dodge or a shield, which gives armor + other stats + blocking ability.
Luck of the draw in some ways. Just gotta be the best you can be and hope it's enough. If not, then you're out of luck for a bit. Maybe then it's a good time to have a back up alt at 85 and geared... Which I usually don't like. Having to give up your main because they can't work in a situation is just bad planning on Blizzard's part. But... I'll stop here cause my post is turning into ranting.
Post by
508201
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
212676
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
KingdomKnight
"Bring the player, not the class." Play whichever you are the most comfortable with. Undeniably, you will come back to this.
Post by
DraconisAerius
Druids, cause Paragon used one on H:Rag world first. And really, who doesn't wana look at that big hairy bum all day long?
Post by
Orranis
In 5 mans, DK's reign supreme. In nerfed tier-11, I'd probably say the same, but it's much more of a blurry line. After that it's a slow descent and eventually a huge pit.
All in all, it really depends what you're doing. When it comes to EH, a block capped Paladin is best, followed by a Bear and then a Warrior, with Death Knights far behind. Utility has Paladins in front once more, followed by Warriors, Bears, with Death Knights at the back again. Overall mitigation is a really blurry line between Paladins, Warriors, and Bears, with Death Knights following not too far behind.
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