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Everyone should tank like a Blood DK......wait?
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Post by
382074
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
If he were to attempt the same thing now even with better gear it wouldn't go over nearly as well. (Dark succor + stacking blood shields in unholy presence was OP in low damage sitations, thus why as soon as 4.1 came out it didn't work anymore.)
killing both may be a problem, but Ozruk is very much possible without a healer. On my Blood DK, playing with a full house of friends, 3 of them had to go eat, so me, the tank, and a Hunter friend were left to boredom right before Ozruk. In pure boredom, and with 355 itemlevel I pulled him, and we 2-manned him no problem. Neither of us died, and it never really felt like things were going to hell. I used the basic tanking style - DS as much as possible, and a huge use of CDs, just like I always do. It took a while, but never did we have any serious issue.
One of the friends in the group were trying to gear up his dps off-spec. His tank gear is itemlevel 374. His immediate response when he came back and we had 2-manned it was something along the lines of "#$%^ing DKs. Balance: Non-existant." and it's true. DKs are obscenely OP at 5-mans, but below par in some raid encounters. Whenever I heal, I always cheer when I see a DK, because it means the run will go a lot smoother. Warriors, Paladins, Druids... doesn't matter. They can't top a DK at their best. Of course, a run can go very easy with any of the other tanks - I have seen a multitude of good, competent tanks of any class. But with a DK... hell, if he is well geared and knows what he is doing, I can pretty much switch to "raid-healing" duty,
in a 5-man
, and throw a renew or shield on our tank every now and then.
Yesterday a DK tank with Firelands gear in Heroic HoO had 10 % of my total healing done, and I never topped off anyone (I never do in 5-mans). No other tank can perform this well, and half of the reason is no doubt Anti-magic shield. This thing can work wonders that no other tank can do, simply because of the ability to prevent application of harmful magic effects. Ozumat, anyone? Dks hardly ever even begin to get stacks from the poluted water if they just use this at 3-4 seconds after the dps race begins.
Post by
Problimatic
If he were to attempt the same thing now even with better gear it wouldn't go over nearly as well. (Dark succor + stacking blood shields in unholy presence was OP in low damage sitations, thus why as soon as 4.1 came out it didn't work anymore.)
killing both may be a problem, but Ozruk is very much possible without a healer. On my Blood DK, playing with a full house of friends, 3 of them had to go eat, so me, the tank, and a Hunter friend were left to boredom right before Ozruk. In pure boredom, and with 355 itemlevel I pulled him, and we 2-manned him no problem. Neither of us died, and it never really felt like things were going to hell. I used the basic tanking style - DS as much as possible, and a huge use of CDs, just like I always do. It took a while, but never did we have any serious issue.
One of the friends in the group were trying to gear up his dps off-spec. His tank gear is itemlevel 374. His immediate response when he came back and we had 2-manned it was something along the lines of "#$%^ing DKs. Balance: Non-existant." and it's true. DKs are obscenely OP at 5-mans, but below par in some raid encounters. Whenever I heal, I always cheer when I see a DK, because it means the run will go a lot smoother. Warriors, Paladins, Druids... doesn't matter. They can't top a DK at their best. Of course, a run can go very easy with any of the other tanks - I have seen a multitude of good, competent tanks of any class. But with a DK... hell, if he is well geared and knows what he is doing, I can pretty much switch to "raid-healing" duty,
in a 5-man
, and throw a renew or shield on our tank every now and then.
Yesterday a DK tank with Firelands gear in Heroic HoO had 10 % of my total healing done, and I never topped off anyone (I never do in 5-mans). No other tank can perform this well, and half of the reason is no doubt Anti-magic shield. This thing can work wonders that no other tank can do, simply because of the ability to prevent application of harmful magic effects. Ozumat, anyone? Dks hardly ever even begin to get stacks from the poluted water if they just use this at 3-4 seconds after the dps race begins.
Well yeah you could solo ozruk or slabhide individually now, I soloed the last 2 mil of ozruk in 346 gear a long time ago, though a prot paladin with word of glory even after the cooldown could likely do the same because the damage on ozruk is so low. As long as you avoid avoidable damage there isn't really a problem with it. I was saying the ability to solo 2 heroic bosses when a mechanic was broken doesn't make the class overpowered overall. In terms of 5 mans, dks are no doubt the best tanks there are as the damage is so low and it is ridiculously easy to kill things. With heavy damage and less constant mitigation however (Progression raiding) dks fall significantly behind the other tanks. We do have AMS which is an interesting cooldown that serves us well in many niche situations, however in a raid environment where the damage is so heavy, your healers would prefer a consistent tank over a spiky one that is constantly dropping to 10%, staying at 100% for a few seconds then dropping again.
Post by
Trishi
In that case, let's hope they manage to balance out the tanks soon. It feels somewhat wrong that 1/2 tank can almost go through Heroic dungeons without a healer, while the other 3/2 rely heavily on them, but that 1 tank class who excels the most at facerolling 5-mans, are the most useless ones in raids. It could possibly be considered a "balance", making DKs the best in 5-mans, but weakest in raids, but that is kinda a turn-down for a DK tank. Why would you want to roll a tank class that becomes less and less effective, the more you progress?
I'm enjoying my Death Knight right now. It's fun to play with, as it's easy to tank any and all heroics, and helpful for healer friends who are trying to gear up. But it just feels depressing to see people in trade talk about how bad DKs are at tanking the Firelands raid.
Post by
DraconisAerius
The worst part is, if Blizz stick to form, they are more likely to bring the other tanks down to our level than to buff dk's.
Post by
Trishi
The worst part is, if Blizz stick to form, they are more likely to bring the other tanks down to our level than to buff dk's.
...So?
The problem isn't the level of survivability the tanks possess. The problem is the imbalance. I'd much rather have 4 tanks of equal power, than having some tanks be best for 1 purpose, and other tanks be best for another purpose. Even if that means they are all weaker.
Both as a healer and a tank. As a tank, I want to know that I can do just as well as any of the other tanks. As a healer, I want to know that any tank will be equally easy to heal. I don't want to worry about how this raid will go, because the tank I'm assigned to heal is a DK. Difference is good, but a difference in balance is not.
Post by
iala
The main problem with DK tanking is that people are way too impatient for dks to get our diseases established and gain enough threat to not loose it when hunters start shooting and mages start casting...
Very little Blizzard can do about that outside of either making our threat generation a lot faster as dks and/or making it physically impossible for others to attack something that's not already the tank (and I'd not want the latter, mind).
Post by
Trishi
Actually, as a tank, I love
love
to have a tool to lock down a dps tempoarily. Rarely the whole group is an issue, and if I can lock down someone for just 10 seconds, it would be more than enough to establish a proper threat level before said burster goes nuts. If said person complains, he can just suck it up and give us those 3 seconds of combat before unloading everything. It's cool that you have Charge, are ranged, or whatever, but we don't get threat by running towards our target. If you can't understand that, you deserve to be locked down for those 10 seconds. It will harm your damage done on reccount, and that seems to be one of the worst things that can happen to that kind of people.
It may be possible to abuse this to death, but so can
Life Grip
,
Misdirection
,
Tricks of the Trade
, and my personal favorite,
Hand of Protection
. I can't count the number of times a full guildrun have wiped because of our Holy Paladin messing around with this thing. Hillarious. Too bad it only locks physical damage, and not spells. Makes it useless on trigger happy mages.
Post by
DraconisAerius
The worst part is, if Blizz stick to form, they are more likely to bring the other tanks down to our level than to buff dk's.
...So?
So if they do that either all tanks will need to be over geared for content due to being sub par, or healers will have to out gear it just so they can keep people up.
Post by
Trishi
The worst part is, if Blizz stick to form, they are more likely to bring the other tanks down to our level than to buff dk's.
...So?
So if they do that either all tanks will need to be over geared for content due to being sub par, or healers will have to out gear it just so they can keep people up.
No. If they bring all tanks to the same level, regardless of which direction they take, they will adjust the content to match. If all tanks was bought to the level of DKs, 5-mans would be hillariously easy, but raids would be harder. Inevitably, knowing how Blizzard does these things, the content would be nerfed, or all tanks would get an additional damage reduction somewhere, like a type of "mastery" similar to Absolution for Healer priests, to make the raids match, but make the 5-mans a snorefest. Since Blizzard puts such a huge focus on raiding in general, the last really isn't too unlikely. Nerfing is also a possiblity, but that'd require far more effort than just tapping on a damage reduction as an additional mastery.
Post by
Doring
Another possibility would be to add an adjustment to DK tanks for armor in blood presence. If our armor, which is weakest of all the tank classes, got a buff, then we could mitigate more of the large damage spikes better. Much as shield wielding tanks get a boost in armor for the shield, if we got a similar boost from Blood Presence or Blood Shield, then it would likely be far easier to balance. Less content adjustment needed in that case. We really are hindered because we don't have this shield out there with a butt ton of armor on it and a pretty high chance to block.
And honestly, if people pull the trigger too fast, they should die and suck it up. And us tanking folks should tell them so. "You spank it, you tank it. Or you can wait 3-5 seconds after I hit it and let me have solid aggro."
Post by
Trishi
Another possibility would be to add an adjustment to DK tanks for armor in blood presence. If our armor, which is weakest of all the tank classes, got a buff, then we could mitigate more of the large damage spikes better. Much as shield wielding tanks get a boost in armor for the shield, if we got a similar boost from Blood Presence or Blood Shield, then it would likely be far easier to balance. Less content adjustment needed in that case. We really are hindered because we don't have this shield out there with a butt ton of armor on it and a pretty high chance to block.
And honestly, if people pull the trigger too fast, they should die and suck it up. And us tanking folks should tell them so. "You spank it, you tank it. Or you can wait 3-5 seconds after I hit it and let me have solid aggro."
That'd be optimal. Only some pessimistic people believe all other tanks will get nerfed to DKs level. It would probably mean a nerf to Deathstrike or Bloodshield I'd guess. We can solo most old-content, including current heroic 5-man bosses, so giving us
more
survivability would probably make us
too
good at that.
You are entitled to your opinion about raids being the beginning and the end - nothing else matters. I just disagree. If DKs becomes too good at 5-mans, there's still a huge imbalance present. It's almost god-mode at higher itemlevels as it is. I have solo'd a few dungeons in Cataclysm normal dungeons, And heroics only need competent dps to succeed. If we make DKs
better
, they might as well add a new spell to Blood DKs: "5-man faceroll. This ability reduces all damage taken by 95 %, and makes you immune to all debuffs. Also increases healing taken by 500 %. Can only be used in 5-man instances. Last for the rest of the current dungeon." The outcome would pretty much be the same.
How they plan on balancing this, I don't know. A nerf to Blood Shield is a possibility, but I fear how that will affect us as well. Not too sure how to buff us, AND push us down to the other tanks' level. Of course, if Blizzard don't care, cool. That'd give me tons of fun on my DK, that's for sure.
Post by
jrubimf
DK Blood is not fine.
On Beth'lac, you wont see a DK tanking main boss, he will probably get the adds, cause even if you have self healing, you will take more dmg than a Pally without healing for a sec.
The only fight that im awesome is Baleroc, since im the tank for
Decimation Blade
, im usualy get 80% avoidance of that, how do i do that? With
Dancing Rune Weapon
and
Moonwell Phial
, but still.
And if everthing fails, Anti-Magic.
On Alysrazor, the other tank (a Warrior), get higher dps, since i have to choose between mitigation or dps/threat.
Oh and yeah, i deleted my DK.
Post by
DraconisAerius
DK Blood is not fine.
On Beth'lac, you wont see a DK tanking main boss, he will probably get the adds, cause even if you have self healing, you will take more dmg than a Pally without healing for a sec.
I've tanked Beth before on my DK. It actually went better than the Pally. He would go up for the second thing, but complain he had no cooldown to blow till the healer got up. Me, I've got butt loads of cooldowns. Last time my guild did Beth the healer that was supposed to be up with me, fell down to the bottom level 5 times in between 2 of the smoulderings. So I might as well have no had a healer up there with me. I still didn't go under 50%.
Another possibility would be to add an adjustment to DK tanks for armor in blood presence. If our armor, which is weakest of all the tank classes, got a buff, then we could mitigate more of the large damage spikes better. Much as shield wielding tanks get a boost in armor for the shield, if we got a similar boost from Blood Presence or Blood Shield, then it would likely be far easier to balance. Less content adjustment needed in that case. We really are hindered because we don't have this shield out there with a butt ton of armor on it and a pretty high chance to block.
And honestly, if people pull the trigger too fast, they should die and suck it up. And us tanking folks should tell them so. "You spank it, you tank it. Or you can wait 3-5 seconds after I hit it and let me have solid aggro."
That'd be optimal. Only some pessimistic people believe all other tanks will get nerfed to DKs level. It would probably mean a nerf to Deathstrike or Bloodshield I'd guess. We can solo most old-content, including current heroic 5-man bosses, so giving us
more
survivability would probably make us
too
good at that.
You are entitled to your opinion about raids being the beginning and the end - nothing else matters. I just disagree. If DKs becomes too good at 5-mans, there's still a huge imbalance present. It's almost god-mode at higher itemlevels as it is. I have solo'd a few dungeons in Cataclysm normal dungeons, And heroics only need competent dps to succeed. If we make DKs
better
, they might as well add a new spell to Blood DKs: "5-man faceroll. This ability reduces all damage taken by 95 %, and makes you immune to all debuffs. Also increases healing taken by 500 %. Can only be used in 5-man instances. Last for the rest of the current dungeon." The outcome would pretty much be the same.
How they plan on balancing this, I don't know. A nerf to Blood Shield is a possibility, but I fear how that will affect us as well. Not too sure how to buff us, AND push us down to the other tanks' level. Of course, if Blizzard don't care, cool. That'd give me tons of fun on my DK, that's for sure.
DK's are good at soloing imo because of the sheer number of cooldowns we have. Some of which I would argue are the strongest tanking cooldowns in the game. I think you are right in that any buff we see, we will probably see a nerf to our mastery, even though they have said recently that Blood's mastery is working almost exactly how they wanted it to work. I do think we won't be seeing any buff for a while yet though. Blizz will want to take their time with this I think. If only because they hate making things too strong.
Post by
jrubimf
I've tanked Beth before on my DK. It actually went better than the Pally. He would go up for the second thing, but complain he had no cooldown to blow till the healer got up. Me, I've got butt loads of cooldowns. Last time my guild did Beth the healer that was supposed to be up with me, fell down to the bottom level 5 times in between 2 of the smoulderings. So I might as well have no had a healer up there with me. I still didn't go under 50%.
I mean on HARDMODE.
I could easly tank that on normal modes.
Post by
DraconisAerius
Well you should say what you mean.
Personally, I think this is what gives dk tanks such a bad rep, becuase there is so much ambiguity around them, so much debate on what is the right way to play that people who are new to dk's and new to tanking get confused and end up taking bad advice. Or worse, not taking advice at all. The more certainty we can put into the community, the better for everyone imo.
Post by
DraconisAerius
Hmmm just found something interesting....
We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.(
source
)
So blood being fixed is coming in 4.3, or at least we hope it is.....
Post by
Doring
nerfbat anyone?
Post by
DraconisAerius
Sounds like we are getting a buff and a nerf imo. Just the way they say "addressing some concerns" screams about people calling us OP.
Post by
Doring
Based on past experience, I would bet on the nerfbat. Anyone with half a brain doesn't think we are OP in endgame content, as normal mode tanks we are adequate, at heroics we are good though no better than a well played Pally really.
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