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The Forsaken
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Post by
Tuffy
So, I have a few questions about the Forsaken...
The true goal of the Forsaken used to be to get revenge at the Lich King. Now that he is gone, what do they want now? And why do they create plagues? Do they want to kill every living thing on Azeroth? If so, why does the Horde side with them?
Also, the Forsaken has started gathering corpses from all around, and bring them back from the dead to bolster their numbers. But why would a risen human side with his enemy, and begin to slaughter what used to be his own allies? The only reason I have heard is because the humans will never accept what the person has become, but I don't find that to be a good enough reason.
Also, when you talk to Sylvanas in-game, she complains about her current state as undead, saying things like "What are we if not slaves to this torment?" and "What joy is there in this curse?" Why would she raise other corpses from the dead, and bring the same curse on them, if she hates it so much?
Post by
575377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
There is actually a comparison that can be made between the Forsaken and post-WW1 Germany.
Not to say they are evil, but it adds a wierd bit of irony to how most of these end.
Post by
Rankkor
The true goal of the Forsaken used to be to get revenge at the Lich King. Now that he is gone, what do they want now?
to exist as a people, nothing more.
And why do they create plagues? Do they want to kill every living thing on Azeroth? If so, why does the Horde side with them?
they use viral weapons because they are effective, its much more effective to bomb an area with plague (to wich they are inmune) than send troops and posibly risk losing men. I dont like it, and dont consider it moral, or honorable, but I cant deny that its a damn effective way to fight a war.
They do not want to kill every living thing on Azeroth, only humans. They cannot reproduce (being dead and all that) so the only way to expand their numbers is by raising other dead. But why not use regular necromancers? because they hate regular undead.
Main Diference between a Forsaken and an Undead is that Undead have no free will of their own, they are just flesh constructs reanimated by magic, and bound to the will of the necromancer who animated them. Little more than puppets. But the Scourge Val'kyr are special, they can resurrect others, as undead, but retaining their minds, free will, individuality, personality, and memories. Thus, the undead created by valks is considered Forsaken.
But Valks have a limitation, they can only rezz Vrykul and Humans (since those are decended from the vrykul).
So, the forsaken dont want to kill every living being in the world, they want to kill the humans, and not "for the evulz" but because its the only way they can reproduce. The Horde doesn't necesarily aproves, but they BARELY tolerate it for 2 reasons.
A: because their main presence in the Eastern Kingdoms is the forsakens. Expelling them from the Horde would cripple the horde's advances in the EK, and since they are fighting a war, that wouldn't be good. Plus their Blood Elves allies are pretty much bottlenecked by the forsaken forces, so they dont have that luxury.
B: Because the goal of the forsaken's suits them anyways. After all, they are at war with the humans, any battle they wage against the humans will have casualties anyways, if the forsaken wanna pitch in and kill their share too, well, they can. They dont like the defilement of the dead (Horde or Alliance the orcs
Respect the dead
) but as said in point A, they tolerate it out of necesity. That wont last long.
But why would a risen human side with his enemy, and begin to slaughter what used to be his own allies?
many people have wondered this, but after doing the forsaken starting zone, you find out why without much problem.
Once someone is risen as a forsaken, they are allways given a choise: A: join us, or B: get away from here.
Nobody is forced to serve the banshee queen, and most people once they are resurrected, feel horrified of what they have become, most (if not all) the time they try to get back to their loved ones, but intolerance among the humans is ever-present, so every time a forsaken tries to get back to their people they are allways executed on the spot. Since its inherent human nature to want to still survive, most new-forsaken flee, and try to find allies that will give them shelter.
That's where the UC (Undercity) comes to place. They dont like being undead, but they understand that AS undead, their only choises are A: suicide, or B: survival. Furthermore, several feel enraged that their own family and friends turned their back on them, and thus feel no remorse in aiding the UC in wiping out their former allies.
Thus, they are raised, they loathe their condition, they understand that NOBODY else will shelter them now, so they just hang arround the damned. This is a risky gambit, Sylvannas is surrounding herself with people that are pretty pissed off at her for ruining their lives, and condemning them to an eternity of suffering. She will face a coup soon for this.
Its like a bunch of leppers passing their disease to someone else, and now that someone else is shunned from society and has no other alternative than hang arround other leppers, even if they are the ones who made him/her like this in the first place. Exept these leppers are armed to the theeth, and possess viral weapons to boot :S
Of course what few realize is that they dont HAVE to serve the banshee queen in order to survive, there's allways the Argent Dawn(Now Argent Crusade) they accept anyone into their ranks, are friendly towards alliance and horde, and dont require you to have shiny powers of awesome (Earthen ring=Shamans-only pal / Cenarion Circle= Druids-only dude) to be accepted.
But few take this choise, often because they'd have to manage to find a way to reach the argent crusade, on foot, alone, without provision, without companions, in a hostile world, that reviles them, and has several races that will kill them on the spot.
she complains about her current state as undead, saying things like "What are we if not slaves to this torment?" and "What joy is there in this curse?" Why would she raise other corpses from the dead, and bring the same curse on them, if she hates it so much?
out of necesity. Forsaken cant have children, and untill a cure for undeath is found, they cant reverse their condition (Like the convinient Worgen Curse can) thus the only way to expand their numbers is via spreading their curse on to others.
Of course that does't justify it in my eyes. Sure its the only way for them to survive, but in order to survive, they are spreading a curse, an unnatural thing that should not be, onto someone else, unwillingly. If people volunteered to be forsakenized that would be a diferent thing, but nobody volunteers for that.
Look at the Knights of the Ebon Blade. They are pretty much forsakens (all of them, regardless of race). Undead with free will, and they have no desire to spread their curse to others. Now that the Lich king is dead, they have pretty much hired themselves to the horde and alliance, and now live for war exclusively. They know they will die out, and once they do, the death knights will vanish from this world forever, but they dont mind. because they know they arent meant for the world of the living anymore.
Its not so easy to label forsakens are Evil, or Justify their actions. They are a bunch of people that are desperatedly cliging to life (or rather Unlife) in a world that isn't for them anymore. Desperation is making them take measures that are wrong and indeed very evil, but most of them are methodical in their carnage.
Look at how Sylvannas let the surrendering worgens in silverpine go. They laid down their arms, it wound't had costed her anything to go back on her word and have them all slaughtered, but she is not a genocidal woman who kills out of pleasure, she doesn't want unneeded bloodshed. She will kill any human she can find to raise more forsakens, but that's as far as she'll go.
sadly, there's a lot of sick'os in the forsakens :S like Calder Gray or Warden Stillwater.
Post by
Migis
There is actually a comparison that can be made between the Forsaken and post-WW1 Germany.
Not to say they are evil, but it adds a wierd bit of irony to how most of these end.
Which is also saying that they are Pre-WW2 Germany, essentially making them Nazi's?
Post by
Atik
There is actually a comparison that can be made between the Forsaken and post-WW1 Germany.
Not to say they are evil, but it adds a wierd bit of irony to how most of these end.
Which is also saying that they are Pre-WW2 Germany, essentially making them Nazi's?
In the most basic sense, yes.
Notice that nothing about Nazi's truely involves mass genocide. Rather, they are self-centered and based around both restoring and growing their country and beliefs.
Syvannas pulls a similiar move to Hitler as she slowly attacks and takes more and more land, hoping to eventually conquor all in the name of her people.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
post-WW1
Germany.
Which is also saying that they are Pre-WW2 Germany, essentially making them
Nazi's
?
My reaction.
The German government had no Nazis in its Cabinet until 1933. 15 years after the end of WW1.
Slightly derailing, but it's important people get their facts straight. :P
Post by
Tuffy
Thanks for clearing that up, rankkorr :)
Post by
Rankkor
post-WW1
Germany.
Which is also saying that they are Pre-WW2 Germany, essentially making them
Nazi's
?
My reaction.
The German government had no Nazis in its Cabinet until 1933. 15 years after the end of WW1.
Slightly derailing, but it's important people get their facts straight. :P
this :P
Some people believe that imidietly after World War 1 (wich nobody seems to care enough to reference anywhere) Germany became Nazi overnight. When in reality it was a slow SLOW process that took nearly 2 decades to happen.
Post-WW1 Germany was in a similar state as the forsakens, the world hated them, they had diminished resourses (HUGE financial debt to make amends for the first world war, ect) and they took desperate measures to survive. Of course, once they took that Desperate Measures, they crossed the "moral evet horizon" into full blown mass genocide. But again, that didn't happened overnight.
Post by
Rankkor
Thanks for clearing that up, rankkorr :)
no problem :P
its important to fight miss-conceptions and false-information. You woudn't believe how much derailment is out there regarding the forsakens. (Tough strangely too little for the worgens. Aparently them worgenizing the hillsbrad population is kosher with everyone)
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
its important to fight miss-conceptions and false-information. You woudn't believe how much derailment is out there regarding the forsakens. (Tough strangely too little for the worgens. Aparently them worgenizing the hillsbrad population is kosher with everyone)
"You wanna be undead or become a furry? Your choice. No, staying human is NOT an option."
well, its a little unfair. The worgen curse has many MANY advantages and too little drawbacks, while the forsaken curse is pure drawbacks and only 1 advantage.
Worgen: Increased super-human strenght, speed, agility, and likely an increased lifespan (I dunno if they are inmortal, but its likely they live longer than an average human would). True that they become lupine inhuman monstrosities, but whenever they calm themselves they can revert to their human forms and enjoy a normal life without people pointing fingers at them and linking them to the boogieman.
Disadvantage: Prone to act less like people and more like animals (look at the bloodfang pack), easy to irritate, dependant on an elixir to retain their sanity, forever have to struggle with an inner beast within themselves, if that beast ever wins, they become ravaging feral monsters who would have no hesitation to kill anything or anyone near them.
Forsaken: Inmortality, as long as you arent injured in any way, you get to live forever. No need to feed, drink, or sleep, allowing you more time to do other more productive activities. No need to breathe, thus not having to put up with unpleasant odors, or risk suffocation or drowning. And full inmunity to diseases.
Disadvantage: ohhhh boy, where do we beging....... cant have children, cant have sex, likely cant feel a thing, pleasant or unpleasant, state of decay can make the body more frail, this one depends on each forsaken, cant enjoy the pleasures of life such as a good meal, or a fine drink, and.... OHH YHEA U'RE AN UGLY SON OF A LICH, a rotten deformed monstrosity that would make Carrot Top look handsome next to you, and are forever doomed to walk this earth as a pariah from everyone who isn't a forsaken (as even hordies look down on them) at the best cases they point at you and look in dread, at the worst cases they chase you with pitchforks and torches.
so.... yhea, its a little unfair how many advantages being a worgen has compared to being forsaken. Specially since they can reverse to human, if they were stuck in worgen form , it would be a little more fair.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, specific worgen are stuck in their more feral form...or at least, don't bother transforming any more, such as Ivar Bloodfang and his pack.
Post by
751416
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Thassarian has no reason to aid the Alliance anymore after their betrayel, so I can see either him, Koltira or Mograine taking command of the Forsaken.
Um....huh?
What betrayal exactly?
And I doubt the Forsaken would accept a Human Death Knight(since Thrassarian is still part of the Alliance), a High Elf Death Knight who 'betrayed' their Queen(Koltira), or the son of the original Ashbringer as their leader.
Post by
751416
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
oneforthemoney
... That was done by the scourge. Th thing was that Laryssa did not know at the time that the Alliance had been infiltrated. Just like the general she had no obvious recollections.
Post by
Adamsm
Thought that's what you were referring to....guess you need to go back and realize that entire thing was orchestrated by a freaking San'Layn Prince to drive a wedge among the Alliance forces arriving in Northrend. And since he shows up on the Skybreaker, working with the Valiance Expedition, guess he got over it....and then is a general in Anderhol helping fight the Scourge and the Forsaken/Horde....well.....yeah.
Post by
Migis
post-WW1
Germany.
Which is also saying that they are Pre-WW2 Germany, essentially making them
Nazi's
?
My reaction.
The German government had no Nazis in its Cabinet until 1933. 15 years after the end of WW1.
Slightly derailing, but it's important people get their facts straight. :P
this :P
Some people believe that imidietly after World War 1 (wich nobody seems to care enough to reference anywhere) Germany became Nazi overnight. When in reality it was a slow SLOW process that took nearly 2 decades to happen.
Post-WW1 Germany was in a similar state as the forsakens, the world hated them, they had diminished resourses (HUGE financial debt to make amends for the first world war, ect) and they took desperate measures to survive. Of course, once they took that Desperate Measures, they crossed the "moral evet horizon" into full blown mass genocide. But again, that didn't happened overnight.
The Beer Hall Putsch (also known as the Munich Putsch but, in German, referred to as the Hitlerputsch or the Hitler-Ludendorff-Putsch) was a failed attempt at revolution that occurred between the evening of 8 November and the early afternoon of 9 November 1923, when Nazi Party leader Adolf Hitler, Generalquartiermeister Erich Ludendorff, and other heads of the Kampfbund unsuccessfully tried to seize power in Munich, Bavaria and Germany. Putsch is the German word for a military coup d'état.
Just because they failed a few times doesn't mean they weren't around.
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