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Recent Nerf to raids suggestion.
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Post by
Astygia
*deep breath*
Best in slot, in this case meant best 359 ilvl items availible. It does not always have to mean best in that item slot, it is often used to describe best in teir. People will use it to describe blue peices, raid peices, and HM peices all respectivly.
You could have just said 'look I meant to say epics, my bad' instead of continuing a silly argument. If a blue piece from a 5man happens to be current BiS then it is, same as anything else that is (read carefully) the
best
item you can currently equip
in
that
slot
.
The real argument here is that people are mad that content is getting nerfed. It's not the first time old content got nerfed and it won't be the last. When FL gets nerfed in the next content addition, will people cry about it then? Yep.
Old tears are old.
Post by
lockbox
As a few others have mentioned earlier in the thread, the solution would be to stick NPCs at the entrance of each raid whom, when interacted with, would offer you the option of running that raid in its pre-nerf state. This is similar to what the OP suggests, except instead of basic damage/healing increases in 5% increments, it's a nerf/pre-nerf toggle switch.
Of course, the people whining about the nerfs would never enable that pre-nerf option. Why should they, when the "scrubs" and "casuals" can complete the same content with easier boss encounters for the same outdated loot? Much easier to whine about it on forums instead of knuckling down and running current content (Firelands, as well as whatever will come after that.)
Post by
Porcell
As a few others have mentioned earlier in the thread, the solution would be to stick NPCs at the entrance of each raid whom, when interacted with, would offer you the option of running that raid in its pre-nerf state. This is similar to what the OP suggests, except instead of basic damage/healing increases in 5% increments, it's a nerf/pre-nerf toggle switch.
Where's it end though? Class mechanics change. Better gear is out. Hell, player knowledge itself nerfs content. It's just impossible to try and "freeze" a raid's difficulty in any way.
Of course, the people whining about the nerfs would never enable that pre-nerf option. Why should they, when the "scrubs" and "casuals" can complete the same content with easier boss encounters for the same outdated loot? Much easier to whine about it on forums instead of knuckling down and running current content (Firelands, as well as whatever will come after that.)
Supposition, but I'd agree. How many people who complained about the ICC buff actually turned it off, besides the guilds super late in the expansion that were going for No-Buff heroic LK kills.
Post by
lonewarrior
Think about it for a second..imagine someone being so bad that they needed a 30% buff, in essence they were performing at only 70% of capacity. Which can be interpreted as a person who put in no effort to learn and had no understanding of their class. These kinds of players will only ever succeed if they are carried by better players and in truth slow down progression for everyone in the attempt to make everyone "happy"
All you have to do is go back and read the threads during the last few months leading up to Cata.
Which then rolled over into the early LFD's of Cata, when the "crutch" was removed.
The latter half of the WotLK model of progression spawned subsequent tier of players that played worse then the previous.
It shouldn't be about trying to make everyone "happy", it should be about trying to make people better. The "happy" comes from the chemistry of success. At some point you have to put players feet to the fire to see if they have what it takes to raid. Nerfing early runs just makes for lazier players and when they catch up to the first crop of players and hit current contents they get thrown into the mix and slow down progression for everyone. especially the good casual player/pugger who in the weeks that will follow Patch 4.2 will have to wonder if the players in his pug know their stuff or just nerfed their way to his level of contents.
There's a reason why the top guilds are consistently way advanced in raiding contents. They weed out the bad.
How can you do this if you need to pug raids and you have no idea if the player invited had any true experience.
The raiding success tier should look like a pyramid not a box. The closer you get to the top the smaller the pool of players, but the greater chance of success when grouping for raid.
If you want to speed up contents without nerfing then just increase the drop amount in older raids with each subsequent patch.
A serious player will catch up to current contents this way without sacrificing contents/experience.
A good casual guild could stay linear in their progression with the other upper echelon guilds and still be viable candidates for pugs without messing with the guilds enjoyment of seeing contents in the same form that the tops guild saw it.
This method would at least ensure that a player was battled test by the time the reached upper levels of raiding, yet they don't have to slog forever through lower tier contents.
It confounds me that the logic of nerfing will result in anything else except what happened in WotLK.
The top guilds will continue to extract the best players on the server and themselves from the community and what will be left will be a mish mosh of players, some who are good but can't raid hardcore and other who don't know which way is up.
People who are spouting that nerfing increases contents...no it doesn't. The hardcore guilds will continue on their separate paths and the casual player that proponents feel the nerfs are assisting will lose what little separation they formed between themselves and the bad players and find themselves lost among the crowd of unknowns again, jockeying for spots they had earn on merit with nerfheads.
Post by
120504
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
The latter half of the WotLK model of progression spawned subsequent tier of players that played worse then the previous.
There's no evidence of this. From my own personal experience, based on data from my server, there are far far more progressed guilds in T11 content than there was in ICC, even counting the ICC escalating buffs. We have over 25 guilds who have killed a heroic boss and about 40 total guilds who are at least 12/12. Even late in WotLK with 30% zone buffs, we didn't have that many guilds progressing in ICC and downing Lich King.
It shouldn't be about trying to make everyone "happy", it should be about trying to make people better.
But see, that shouldn't be Blizzard's goal. That might be a customer's goal, and a customer might wish that everyone else was "good," but it's not Blizzard's goal.
I recently did a 25 man ICC run. I was in there with a bunch of people from a non-progressed guild, everyone was in vent having a good ol' time. I was frustrated because we were dying to things, the players were not good, and I was in there for one specific thing, but everyone else was having a ball talking in vent, running around killing things, and just seeing the content.
Goal is to present a game where the most people can see the most content and be able to have fun. It is not a goal of Blizzard to keep content "hard" so that players will "toughen up" and get "better."
Post by
pezz
Think about it for a second..imagine someone being so bad that they needed a 30% buff, in essence they were performing at only 70% of capacity.
Nerd moment, but they were actually performing at closer to 77% capacity.
Post by
shadowhand911
I think my post has lost its meaning/message. 80% of what has been posted on here has been about gear rather then opinions about the buff. Oh forums how easily u can take a turn for the worst.
Post by
Porcell
I think my post has lost its meaning/message. 80% of what has been posted on here has been about gear rather then opinions about the buff. Oh forums how easily u can take a turn for the worst.
We talked about your buff idea. It wouldn't matter. People would still be pissed. Its a bad idea because it's just the first tier. Things always get nerfed. New T12 level gear will naturally nerf content anyway. Mechanics and class changes naturally change content difficulty.
There's no way to try and artificially keep the difficulty of any particular raiding tier, and there's no reason that it shouldn't be desirable anyway.
Post by
shadowhand911
I think my post has lost its meaning/message. 80% of what has been posted on here has been about gear rather then opinions about the buff. Oh forums how easily u can take a turn for the worst.
We talked about your buff idea. It wouldn't matter. People would still be pissed. Its a bad idea because it's just the first tier. Things always get nerfed. New T12 level gear will naturally nerf content anyway. Mechanics and class changes naturally change content difficulty.
There's no way to try and artificially keep the difficulty of any particular raiding tier, and there's no reason that it shouldn't be desirable anyway.
Do u think people will just skip the old cata raids, quest in firelands, go back and do the old content anyway. Really no reason for a nerf. People can see the old content using new content gear. Either that or the people that didn't see ALL of the old cata raids will just get a couple of pieces of gear (T12) and just clear old content. Same thing happened with TotC with ICC gear, Icc 5-mans.
Post by
Fwibbles
Extra damage/health/healing isn't gonna stop idiots from dying in the fire.
Post by
shadowhand911
Extra damage/health/healing isn't gonna stop idiots from dying in the fire.
True, as they said with ICC pugs, "You failed 10%,20%,30% harder." lol
Post by
120504
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
*deep breath*
Best in slot, in this case meant best 359 ilvl items availible. It does not always have to mean best in that item slot, it is often used to describe best in teir. People will use it to describe blue peices, raid peices, and HM peices all respectivly.
You could have just said 'look I meant to say epics, my bad' instead of continuing a silly argument. If a blue piece from a 5man happens to be current BiS then it is, same as anything else that is (read carefully) the
best
item you can currently equip
in
that
slot
.
I am not going to say that, because thats not what I meant. You could just as easily say 'Im going to keep brining up this phrase because my argument has no credibility... Im a douchbag' but I dont expect you to.
The real argument here is that people are mad that content is getting nerfed. It's not the first time old content got nerfed and it won't be the last. When FL gets nerfed in the next content addition, will people cry about it then? Yep.
Ive been part of this game for a long time dude, and this is they have not nerfed content this hard very often, add to that the fact that a lot of people who were really get sick of the faceroll content in wotlk were meeting Cataclysm raids with a lot of aproval, and look at this like Blizzard taking a one step forward and twi giant steps backwards.
I mean I dont have to aprove of Blizzards decisions, these are free forums are they not?
Post by
lonewarrior
The latter half of the WotLK model of progression spawned subsequent tier of players that played worse then the previous.
There's no evidence of this. From my own personal experience, based on data from my server, there are far far more progressed guilds in T11 content than there was in ICC, even counting the ICC escalating buffs. We have over 25 guilds who have killed a heroic boss and about 40 total guilds who are at least 12/12. Even late in WotLK with 30% zone buffs, we didn't have that many guilds progressing in ICC and downing Lich King.
First off your comparing apple to oranges. ICC was final tier. You should compare the percentages of guilds that had cleared Naxx in early WotLK prior to Ulduar release, if you want to be more accurate. Even then..with all the changes in classes and trees and the easier path to get raid ready then it was in early Wrath it's tough to compare raiding then to now.
What I was harping on is that each subsequent tier that leveled up during the later part of Wrath were learning poorer and poorer techniques. It's a snowballing effect.
LFD represented the community by and large, players who learned no technique to maximizing their classes ability, they didn't need to in Wrath, Blizz saw to that with all their nerfs.
The fact that so many guilds are succeeding today is because they are extracting themselves from the community at large. What else would you attribute the horrendous experience people had in LFD.
Which leads me to another point. Who are the nerfs directed at. Blizz themselves stated that today's players are consuming contents at a faster rate, which in turns has Blizz committed to quicker patch releases. So if the players are doing so "well" why would older contents need a nerf. Why not let the future subscribers enjoy the raids as designed. There going to have to do them whether they are nerfed or not if they want to see the contents.
So again who needs these nerfs..except the bad players. Well how do you ever become a good player then if there is never a need to.
I understand Blizz perspective to encourage play for their profits. But their profits also come out of my subscription as well. When a player has to pug for gear and get a group like the one mentioned in your example, who the heck would tolerate that in their right mind more then once. We had blistering threads about the poor LFD runs and these were just 5 man dungeons.
The truth is this game used to be and should be based on "merit".
How can it be fair to one player who has grind through the set raids to get gear only to be standing along side someone who nerfed his way to the same level and then rolling for the same gear.
Perhaps "merit" should be a new stat in this game.
Post by
lonewarrior
Think about it for a second..imagine someone being so bad that they needed a 30% buff, in essence they were performing at only 70% of capacity.
Nerd moment, but they were actually performing at closer to 77% capacity.
:)....I stand corrected
Post by
Astygia
I am not going to say that, because thats not what I meant. You could just as easily say 'Im going to keep brining up this phrase because my argument has no credibility... Im a douchbag' but I dont expect you to.
I am often a *!@#$%bag to folks that whine about things they clearly don't even try to understand. This doesn't change the facts, or the definitions of ingame terminology (another thing you clearly do not understand, cue verbal insult).
Ive been part of this game for a long time dude, and this is they have not nerfed content this hard very often, add to that the fact that a lot of people who were really get sick of the faceroll content in wotlk were meeting Cataclysm raids with a lot of aproval, and look at this like Blizzard taking a one step forward and twi giant steps backwards.
I mean I dont have to aprove of Blizzards decisions, these are free forums are they not?
Doesn't matter how hard it's been nerfed in the past, also doesn't matter if you joined yesterday. Essentially you're upset that people will get the things you worked for, easier than you did, from >old< content. I don't approve of many of Blizzard's design decisions myself, it's just that of all the things a truly diehard player could whine about, this is among the silliest. I've been hearing stuff like this since TBC, who cleared what pre-nerf and why it makes them better. Yes this current xpac's gearing model and progression mechanics are not the same as TBC days but it's still the same old thing.
But look on the bright side: noawadays we have achievements so you can proudly show off the date you cleared x currently-less-difficult-than-it-used-to-be encounter.
Seriously, complain about class balance issues, or suggest new cool things you'd like to see in the game, or something that actually matters. Just make sure you know what you're talking about and most folks will probably agree with you, me included. But poorly-worded, undefined whines about making old content easier and how purple pixels will somehow be less purple due to said nerfs, reinforced by attitude when you've been educated, is more of a WoW official forums thing.
Post by
Gone
You dont agree with me so that makes you wrong
Also I call loot pixels, look how aloof and detached I am!
Fixed that for you.
EDIT: Seriously you can bash my opinons all you want, you can implie that I only care about achievments and such, you can bring up the BIS thing over and over to give your argument a sence of credibility when I said clearly I meant it as best in teir, but that dosnt change how I feel about the nerfs, and how many others obviously feel as well, so stop trying to shove your opinion down my throat.
Post by
203406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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