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I'm confused about gemming...
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Post by
Problimatic
Bloodshield stacks, you get runes refunded when you miss, and if you are using your blood runes correctly for blood barrier rather than just spamming heart strike as soon as a blood rune is off CD, all of your runic empowerment runes should be death runes that count for death strike. Considering this there is no real time you risk a bloodshield fading due to a miss, honestly I have no clue what the people claiming you need to cap hit/exp are talking about in claiming a "critical miss" for a death strike. It just doesn't happen. On the other hand 105% of your death strike healing going to blood shield vs 135% is a huge difference in how much absorbtion you get with your shield each death strike. Whats next, are we going to start gemming/reforging for haste so our runes are off cd more for more death strikes? This logic doesn't really make much sense at all. Mitigation + avoidance > threat especially with vengeance and in raid situations you can ask for things like tricks of the trade or misdirections in times where aggro is difficult. Its not hard to go over vent and say, hey can I get an md when the add(s) spawn?
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
You are picking fights. If some guy tells you to stop driving through red lights and the next day you see him ignoring a stop sign that doesnt mean you can drive through any red light you want.
But that means i cant treat his advice seriously as he is a hypocrite.
I don't believe you understand the meaning of the word "hypocrite".
My priority list on stats would look like this:
Mastery > Dodge > Expertise (until soft cap) > Parry > Hit > Stamina > Strength
So you say I'm a hypocrite because i use a stamina trinket, even though it is second to lowest on my priority list. First off, i don't use it because it has stamina on it, i use it because it has a use effect of a lot of dodge rating. Second, so far it's the best secondary trinket i have had access to in the game.
You're argument is that because nothing better has dropped for me yet and i still use it that i must be a hypocrite. That would be like me saying to you that you are a hypocrite because you have a 2H'er with haste on it, when there are better 2H'ers with better stats that you are able to get, but don't use haste trinkets. It's not a valid argument. Especially considering tanking trinkets are currently pretty hard to get, and even the ones in game currently are not optimal.
As for your tanking trinkets, they are sub optimal as well.
Tia's Grace
is not a DK item. Agility does nothing for DK's next week. It's itemized as a bear tanking trinket.
Porcelain Crab
is also sub optimal. While mastery is our best stat, the kicker on it is the worst implementation possible for DK's. DK's want mastery when using DS's after large hits, not random fluctuations of mastery when your runes may be on cooldown and you are unable to fully utilize that mastery.
I would argue that
Figurine - Earthen Guardian
is better than both of your trinkets. While yes stamina is sub-par, the kicker uses our second best stat in the best possible way. It gives the user control to gain avoidance when he needs it most.
Have i mentioned yet that this is all completely off topic? This thread is about GEMMING!
Post by
391117
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Problimatic
I feel both of you are being quite childish arguing like this, as for the gems I already stated my opinion. In regards to this trinket matter,
Tia's Grace
is a bad trinket for dk tanking and is becoming completely useless next patch.
Porcelain Crab
is actually in mine and many other's opinion the best 346 tanking trinket available in that it provides dodge to even up your dodge and parry a bit as well as giving mastery which even though it might to some be better on an on use basis, it activates often enough where over a fight its pretty much just as good and easier to use than if it were on use.
Figurine - Earthen Guardian
is a suboptimal trinket in that it provides a lot of stamina which isn't as desirable as many other stats and that much dodge has a bit high dr in comparison to things that proc mastery which has no dr.
Throngus's Finger
would be a good 346 trinket to use in place of that jc trinket. It provides parry and with me using it along with my other gear parry and dodge are about even (Not including the 4% parry that isn't affected by dr from swordshattering, so good avoidance, and every time you parry with it you get a lot of dodge for 12 sec with 60 sec icd. With about a 20% uptime (which is what this has) you get 342 dodge average from it. So 342 dodge rating and 285 parry rating for an easy to get 346 trinket. It is a fairly common drop from the second boss in Grim Batol.
Post by
Aris
I feel both of you are being quite childish arguing like this, as for the gems I already stated my opinion. In regards to this trinket matter,
Tia's Grace
is a bad trinket for dk tanking and is becoming completely useless next patch.
Porcelain Crab
is actually in mine and many other's opinion the best 346 tanking trinket available in that it provides dodge to even up your dodge and parry a bit as well as giving mastery which even though it might to some be better on an on use basis, it activates often enough where over a fight its pretty much just as good and easier to use than if it were on use.
Figurine - Earthen Guardian
is a suboptimal trinket in that it provides a lot of stamina which isn't as desirable as many other stats and that much dodge has a bit high dr in comparison to things that proc mastery which has no dr.
Throngus's Finger
would be a good 346 trinket to use in place of that jc trinket. It provides parry and with me using it along with my other gear parry and dodge are about even (Not including the 4% parry that isn't affected by dr from swordshattering, so good avoidance, and every time you parry with it you get a lot of dodge for 12 sec with 60 sec icd. With about a 20% uptime (which is what this has) you get 342 dodge average from it. So 342 dodge rating and 285 parry rating for an easy to get 346 trinket. It is a fairly common drop from the second boss in Grim Batol.
I love how you mentioned Throngus's Finger, because it happens to be my OTHER trinket.
While yes stamina is sub optimal i agree, the BiS 359 tanking trinkets right now both have stamina. Not because they have stamina, but because of the sheer lack of well itemized tanking trinkets, and the fact that their kickers are pretty good.
Vial of Stolen Memories
and
Symbiotic Worm
Trinkets have historically, and continue to be good not because of static stats, but because of on use, and on hit abilities. It's the kickers that make them or break them, not the static stats they add. The stamina is gravy, the on use dodge rating is why the
Vial of Stolen Memories
and
Figurine - Earthen Guardian
are good.
Welcome to the "childish" argument.
PS: thanks for showing me a better way to link wowhead items in forums.
Post by
Problimatic
Well
Porcelain Crab
actually converts to 427.5 mastery gain with its uptime of aproximately 25% so it has 427 mastery and 285 dodge. which is why I put it ahead of the
Figurine - Earthen Guardian
which translates to 427 stamina and 237.5 dodge with maximum uptime. The crab has more dodge and as much mastery as the JC trinket has stamina which everyone puts mastery > stam for sure so if I were you I'd try getting my hands on the crab as its arguably the best 346 trinket. It drops from the optional 3rd boss in TotT heroic at a deplorable drop rate labeled at 20% but I've had friends take 30+ runs of it before getting it to drop.
Post by
Aris
Quoting sidelsky18
from the comments on the porcelain crab trinket: In a perfect world, the uptime would be 25% (every 20 seconds out of 80 seconds). However, due to its proc chance of only 10%, the actual uptime would be closer to 16-18%. This would be an average of about 290 mastery.
The problem is that the way our mastery works, it only works with death strike. Just having more mastery without using DS has zero effect. The trinket procs on any attack with no conditional. Unlike other tanking trinkets with a mastery proc that trigger at a specific health, so that it will actually kick in when you need it most. The way it is now, you may not need that mastery when you get it, or you may not be able to use the proc effectively depending on where you are on your rotation and what runes are on cooldown and when they will be available again. It may proc when you arn't taking a lot of damage, and then wear off when a spike in damage occurs when the mastery could have been better utilized.
The problem is it's completely random. So you really can't say its an average 290 mastery, because some of those times it kicks in will be wasted or underutilized.
It then becomes an RNG mitigation instead of how mitigation usually works (all the time). So then it's compared more on the level with avoidance, which has a lower priority than the mitigation we gain through mastery. I would even say that RNG mitigation is worth less than avoidance because at least with avoidance you do not take any damage at all, whereas with mitigation you only lessen the blow. So then the mastery proc on this trinket's value then becomes lower than parry rating. So now your talking about 290 mastery that's worth less than 290 parry.
So now compare that to the on use dodge effect of the JC figurine. First off you can use the dodge when you need it most. It's not random. So when you take a spike in physical damage, you can pop it to avoid additional blows, or if you know a spike in physical damage is about to occur you can pre-empt it to increase your chance of avoiding it. Add that to the fact that the dodge rating is now worth more than the RNG mastery rating of the Crab. Also if you want to maximize the uptime with the dodge trinket you can, because you have full control over when it procs. So the average dodge rating would be 237.5 vs RNG mastery average of 290.
Personally, id rather have the dodge, because i can control it. So i get the full 1420 dodge rating when i need it, and i don't waist any of it when i don't need it. As apposed to randomly getting extra mastery when i may or may not need it at the time.
If the proc on the porcelain crab was like the proc on
Symbiotic Worm
then i would take it in a heartbeat, because that is probably the best auto proc for mastery possible.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
slasher0161
Just going to throw it out there
Figurine - King of Boars
Post by
Aris
Just going to throw it out there
Figurine - King of Boars
That's like saying
Soul Casket
is a tanking trinket because technically we have spells that the kicker would improve and it has mastery. Just because it has mastery on it doesn't automatically make it a tanking trinket.
Yes "technically" you get a SLIGHT amount of parry out of the deal, but that doesn't mean strength is now a tanking stat. It's still a dps stat. Which means
Figurine - King of Boars
is a dps trinket.
Post by
Orranis
Just going to throw it out there
Figurine - King of Boars
That's like saying
Soul Casket
is a tanking trinket because technically we have spells that the kicker would improve and it has mastery. Just because it has mastery on it doesn't automatically make it a tanking trinket.
Yes "technically" you get a SLIGHT amount of parry out of the deal, but that doesn't mean strength is now a tanking stat. It's still a dps stat. Which means
Figurine - King of Boars
is a dps trinket.
Soul Casket would make a great tanking trinket. If you're not worried about stamina, which you shouldn't be 'til heroic modes,
Unsolvable Riddle
and
Mirror of Broken Images
could be BiS. Then again, Mirror is likely going to be BiS even into heroic Firelands, maybe past that. It could be the closest thing we ever get to a tanking legendary.
Quoting sidelsky18
from the comments on the porcelain crab trinket: In a perfect world, the uptime would be 25% (every 20 seconds out of 80 seconds). However, due to its proc chance of only 10%, the actual uptime would be closer to 16-18%. This would be an average of about 290 mastery.
The problem is that the way our mastery works, it only works with death strike. Just having more mastery without using DS has zero effect. The trinket procs on any attack with no conditional. Unlike other tanking trinkets with a mastery proc that trigger at a specific health, so that it will actually kick in when you need it most. The way it is now, you may not need that mastery when you get it, or you may not be able to use the proc effectively depending on where you are on your rotation and what runes are on cooldown and when they will be available again. It may proc when you arn't taking a lot of damage, and then wear off when a spike in damage occurs when the mastery could have been better utilized.
The problem is it's completely random. So you really can't say its an average 290 mastery, because some of those times it kicks in will be wasted or underutilized.
I'm first going to point out that, until Cho'gall if you're raid is bad at worshipping, there is no 'spike' damage that can really kill a tank. And if there is, that's why you have cooldowns. You will get a minimum of two Death Strikes with the extra mastery, three if you get a Death Strike in the early four seconds and don't miss your last one, and potentially four or five if you get good luck with Runic Empowerment. It lasts twenty seconds you know.
It then becomes an RNG mitigation instead of how mitigation usually works (all the time). So then it's compared more on the level with avoidance, which has a lower priority than the mitigation we gain through mastery. I would even say that RNG mitigation is worth less than avoidance because at least with avoidance you do not take any damage at all, whereas with mitigation you only lessen the blow. So then the mastery proc on this trinket's value then becomes lower than parry rating. So now your talking about 290 mastery that's worth less than 290 parry. Who said mitigation worked all the time? Bone Shield only has four charges you know, and Blood Shields don't stay up forever. Not to mention that unless you're wasting on absurd amount of stats on hit/expertise capping (capping expertise for parry is beyond idiotic, and even going for dodge for tanks is not recommended.) Most characters Block is actually a chance, completely RNG. The only mitigation that works all the time is Armor, and there's no viable bonus armor trinkets at this point. Blizzard doesn't like making extra armor items anymore.
So now compare that to the on use dodge effect of the JC figurine. First off you can use the dodge when you need it most. It's not random. So when you take a spike in physical damage, you can pop it to avoid additional blows, or if you know a spike in physical damage is about to occur you can pre-empt it to increase your chance of avoiding it. Add that to the fact that the dodge rating is now worth more than the RNG mastery rating of the Crab. Also if you want to maximize the uptime with the dodge trinket you can, because you have full control over when it procs. So the average dodge rating would be 237.5 vs RNG mastery average of 290.
Personally, id rather have the dodge, because i can control it. So i get the full 1420 dodge rating when i need it, and i don't waist any of it when i don't need it. As apposed to randomly getting extra mastery when i may or may not need it at the time.
Dodge trinkets do nothing for spike damage. You realize that 1420 parry rating gives you 8% extra parry, even before diminishing returns? Furthermore, the avoidance is completely RNG based. You are not guaranteed any additional dodges. Avoidance trinkets are nice for when you realize bosses are going to have a string of more powerful hits, or on Chimaeron's last phase where you want to get as close to unhittable as possible. but for any 'spike' damage it's going to be just as useless (if not more, considering you still have a chance for it to proc during spikes, where it would be much more helpful). Otherwise you may as well use them rotationally.
If the proc on the porcelain crab was like the proc on
Symbiotic Worm
then i would take it in a heartbeat, because that is probably the best auto proc for mastery possible.
...
No.
I mean, sure, it definitely helps when you're about to die, but if that's happening before end-tier bosses or heroic raids something is already terribly wrong. Before then, that trinket is a mana soaker on pretty much every fight but Chimaeron.
Post by
Aris
Orranis your entire argument is based on having good healers. I like to plan for the worst, and then hope for the best. Not plan for the best. It has been a while since i have been wow'd by healers, both in the guilds i've been in and pugs. Maybe its my server. In either case, id rather not gear hoping i have good healers.
Also, we lose Agility as a tanking stat next week in 4.2, so no
Unsolvable Riddle
is not a BiS tanking trinket for DK's.
Post by
Orranis
Orranis your entire argument is based on having good healers. I like to plan for the worst, and then hope for the best. Not plan for the best. It has been a while since i have been wow'd by healers, both in the guilds i've been in and pugs. Maybe its my server. In either case, id rather not gear hoping i have good healers.
Also, we lose Agility as a tanking stat next week in 4.2, so no
Unsolvable Riddle
is not a BiS tanking trinket for DK's.
Next week next week.
I generally respond to posts written in the present tense assuming they're talking about the present. Switch it to
Impatience of Youth
. Either way, it's getting averaged out to about 0.6% dodge for the agility and about 0.4% parry for the strength, before DR. The only reason it's any good is because of the static boat-load of mastery.
But hey, next week you can get 378's from rep, so why even bother with the conversation?
And no, you don't need 'good' healers to stay above 35%, especially in heroics, you need non-AFK healers. Good healers are mana efficient, able to heal under any situation (movement, massive AoE, etc.) Any healer can keep a tank up. Planning for the worst means you will much more frequently get the worst.
Post by
slasher0161
Just going to throw it out there
Figurine - King of Boars
That's like saying
Soul Casket
is a tanking trinket because technically we have spells that the kicker would improve and it has mastery. Just because it has mastery on it doesn't automatically make it a tanking trinket.
Yes "technically" you get a SLIGHT amount of parry out of the deal, but that doesn't mean strength is now a tanking stat. It's still a dps stat. Which means
Figurine - King of Boars
is a dps trinket.
I mentioned that because they said they didn't have access to mastery trinkets, while its not specifically a tanking trinket, it is a mastery trinket which would agree with their gem strategy... catching where this is going.
Either way as was said this talk is all more or less redundant the OP's question was more or less answered and the trinket debate will be irrelevant when 4.2 drops.
Post by
Aris
Switch it to
Impatience of Youth
. Either way, it's getting averaged out to about 0.6% dodge for the agility and about 0.4% parry for the strength, before DR. The only reason it's any good is because of the static boat-load of mastery.
I prefer to have a mediocre static stat with a killer on use or on hit kicker.
The whole point of the trinket has always been to have a periodic big boost to a meaningful stat when you need something extra. Not just another slot to stick static stats.
Post by
apocalypsa
Switch it to
Impatience of Youth
. Either way, it's getting averaged out to about 0.6% dodge for the agility and about 0.4% parry for the strength, before DR. The only reason it's any good is because of the static boat-load of mastery.
I prefer to have a mediocre static stat with a killer on use or on hit kicker.
The whole point of the trinket has always been to have a periodic big boost to a meaningful stat when you need something extra. Not just another slot to stick static stats.
600 something parry isnt bad either. However, Impetuous Query is better :)
Post by
Aris
600 something parry isn't bad either. However, Impetuous Query is better :)
Oh god i wish that thing existed. That is about as perfect as you can get right now for a trinket. Dodge would be preferred, but meh. Beggar's can't be choosers. I'd be happy if they just implemented it. Chances are though by the time they ever do, I'll be on to bigger and better epic's by then.
I would like to note, i no longer use a stamina trinket. For all of those nay-sayers who think I'm a hypocrite. I finally got exalted with baradin's wardens. While I'd prefer it had an avoidance kicker, a second spell damage soak ability won't be a total waist. I've already had a couple of times when it came in handy. Plus i could always stack the two on really hard hitting spells, like on nef in BWD.
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