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Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
Skreeran
In addition, some people are simply just
wrong.
Imagine if some 80-90% of the world believed that the sun went around the world, or, more appropriately, that we were inside the Matrix or something. Yes, peace is more simply achieved by learning to ignore our differences and get along, but at the same time, it is not unacceptable to come to the conclusion that the other side is just plain flat out wrong. While I definitely think that intellectual debate is where the conflict belongs (differing
ideas
should
never
result in physical conflict), I don't see anything wrong with trying to show the other side the error of their ways.
Imagine if Galileo had never attempted to convince the Church the the Earth went round the sun (he was confined to his house for the rest of his life for that, by the way), and instead accepted that they just had different, but equally valid opinions on the matter.
There's nothing wrong with debating a point, in my opinion, especially not here in America where a good portion of Christians think that the entire universe is 10,000-6000 years old, that the Earth was created before the stars, that Adam was made from dust, and that Eve was made from a rib.
Post by
ExDementia
In addition, some people are simply just
wrong.
Imagine if some 80-90% of the world believed that the sun went around the world, or, more appropriately, that we were inside the Matrix or something. Yes, peace is more simply achieved by learning to ignore our differences and get along, but at the same time, it is not unacceptable to come to the conclusion that the other side is just plain flat out wrong. While I definitely think that intellectual debate is where the conflict belongs (differing
ideas
should
never
result in physical conflict), I don't see anything wrong with trying to show the other side the error of their ways.
Imagine if Galileo had never attempted to convince the Church the the Earth went round the sun (he was confined to his house for the rest of his life for that, by the way), and instead accepted that they just had different, but equally valid opinions on the matter.
There's nothing wrong with debating a point, in my opinion, especially not here in America where a good portion of Christians think that the entire universe is 10,000-6000 years old, that the Earth was created before the stars, that Adam was made from dust, and that Eve was made from a rib.
Amen, my brother.
Post by
Gone
Like I said I dont feel like debating, Ive said my peice and the arguments you made in responce could also be called "circular reasoning". A lot of the problems you mentioned are caused by human beings not higher forces.
I don't think you understand what
circular reasoning
is.
Do you? I mean you accuse me of using circular logic, then link the wiki article... that dosnt explain how I was using circular logic lol.
You accuse me of using circular logic by my argument that if there is a God human beings would not be able to understand the way he works. I said yoy were using circular logic because you came back at me with the exact same argument you used the first time around. these are both circular logic because we can go back and foreth like that forever without reaching any answer, and it dosnt make either of them less valid.
I don't think you really read the article then, :P
You were using circular reasoning like this:
"We are not intelligent enough to understand god's ways. The fact that he is so much more intelligent than us proves this."
This makes your argument fallacious because it relies upon your own proposition, "We're too dumb to understand god", in order to support your main basis for argument. Essentially, you assume that your central point is already proven, and then you use this to support your continued argument.
Here is another example:
Why are there bad things?
"Because it is god's will."
But why did he put them there?
"Because god's will, be done."
But why have these things in the first place? What's the point?
"Because god works in mysterious ways, he has a plan for us."
Where does that leave any room for discussion? It's a bit of a cop out if you ask me. When there is no fact to combat an argument, pulling things out of thin air becomes like the only way to defend your blind faith.
Ok
1) The fact that you used a wiki link instead of explaining what you think was circular logic, rather than using your own explination, makes me think you didnt understand it.
2) Any argument that leads you in circles can be called circular logic, thats why its called that. You using the same argument at me over and over is another form of crcular logic.
3) Just because both of our points can be classified circular logic dosnt make either of them less valid.
The thing that I seem to notice is that a lot of people tend to look at God in a very human way, when like I said if there is a God, a being powerful enough to create the universe, then this would be a being of much higher intelligence than us. So yes people have a lot of trouble wrapping their minds around something that thinks on a higher level than us, a side effect of generations upon generations of assuming we are the smartest creatures in the universe. So yes you can accuse me of circular logic, that dosnt make it any less valid.
EDIT: Now that I think of it just the argument that im using circular logic could be described as circular logic, since everything I say you can just come back at me with "well your just using circular logic". So lets not be tossing that phrase around
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think you understand circular reasoning, Ryajork.
It's not just coming back to the same thing (argument, point, whatever), it's using a conclusion to support a premise (and a premise that supports that conclusion), rather than using proof.
"Only an untrustworthy person would run for office. The fact that politicians are untrustworthy is proof of this."
As far as I'm concerned, prove there
is
a god first, and then you can try to argue that he's beyond our understanding.
Post by
xaratherus
Exactly, Skree. A circular argument or circular reasoning is a very specific type of fallacy. It is not simply an argument in which you simply rely on the same points - it's an argument that attempts to prove a premise with 'evidence' that is based on the premise being true.
I think there is a technical term for the sort of looping argument of which you're speaking, but it's not really a fallacy.
Post by
OverZealous
Ok
1) The fact that you used a wiki link instead of explaining what you think was circular logic, rather than using your own explination, makes me think you didnt understand it.
2) Any argument that leads you in circles can be called circular logic, thats why its called that. You using the same argument at me over and over is another form of crcular logic.
3) Just because both of our points can be classified circular logic dosnt make either of them less valid.
The thing that I seem to notice is that a lot of people tend to look at God in a very human way, when like I said if there is a God, a being powerful enough to create the universe, then this would be a being of much higher intelligence than us. So yes people have a lot of trouble wrapping their minds around something that thinks on a higher level than us, a side effect of generations upon generations of assuming we are the smartest creatures in the universe. So yes you can accuse me of circular logic, that dosnt make it any less valid.
EDIT: Now that I think of it just the argument that im using circular logic could be described as circular logic, since everything I say you can just come back at me with "well your just using circular logic". So lets not be tossing that phrase around
Few points on this.
1) He used a source to back up his claim, that is definetly the correct thing to do in the situation, perhaps a Wiki page isn't the best site, but nevertheless, sources are generally good.
"The thing that I seem to notice is that a lot of people tend to look at God in a very human way"
So God created man in his own image...
If God created us in his image, should we not look at him by human standards?
Also, Power does not equal intelligence. The fact that God is
able
to create from nothingness does not necessarily mean that he is smarter than us. For all I know, he could be stupid.
Edit: Skeeran, asking someone to prove that God exists is like asking one of
these
guys to prove that the Earth is flat.
Post by
Quilan
Well here's my thinking to those who don't believe in God or try to make fun of Christianity/Catholicism (?)
Athiests, I want you to answer these questions:
1) How was everything made? The VEARY first thing. The first particle?
My Answer in Athiestic view: It was.
My True answer as a Christian: God made everything.
Genesis 1:
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
2) But HOW was it?
My Answer with athiestic view: ...
My True answer as a Christian: (See Above)
3) So, you need to BELIEVE that it just happened?
Thing is, with religions. You have to BELIEVE in something, Athiests have to BELIEVE that it all just happened. Christianity is different from other religions for a main reason. We (Christians) believe in forgiveness, Christ Jesus gave up his life for us to be cleansed of sin, meaning, God FORGAVE.
John 3:16-21
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. .
God created sin, yes, but the Devil, Satan, tries to use it for his own gains. Those who "bash" christianity, is it really worth it to taunt someone's belief, when you, yourself, might have your own belief? Everyone believes in different things. Doesn't mean you should taunt it.
One last thing:
Proverbs 10
Proverbs of Solomon
1 The proverbs of Solomon:
A wise son brings joy to his father,
but a foolish son brings grief to his mother.
2 Ill-gotten treasures have no lasting value,
but righteousness delivers from death.
3 The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry,
but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.
4 Lazy hands make for poverty,
but diligent hands bring wealth.
5 He who gathers crops in summer is a prudent son,
but he who sleeps during harvest is a disgraceful son.
6 Blessings crown the head of the righteous,
but violence overwhelms the mouth of the wicked.
7 The name of the righteous is used in blessings,
but the name of the wicked will rot.
8 The wise in heart accept commands,
but a chattering fool comes to ruin.
9 Whoever walks in integrity walks securely,
but whoever takes crooked paths will be found out.
10 Whoever winks maliciously causes grief,
and a chattering fool comes to ruin.
11 The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life,
but the mouth of the wicked conceals violence.
12
Hatred stirs up conflict,
but love covers over all wrongs
.
13 Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning,
but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.
14 The wise store up knowledge,
but the mouth of a fool invites ruin.
15 The wealth of the rich is their fortified city,
but poverty is the ruin of the poor.
16 The wages of the righteous is life,
but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.
17 Whoever heeds discipline shows the way to life,
but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.
18
Whoever conceals hatred with lying lips
and spreads slander is a fool.
19
Sin is not ended by multiplying words,
but the prudent hold their tongues.
20 The tongue of the righteous is choice silver,
but the heart of the wicked is of little value.
21 The lips of the righteous nourish many,
but fools die for lack of sense.
22 The blessing of the LORD brings wealth,
without painful toil for it.
23 A fool finds pleasure in wicked schemes,
but a person of understanding delights in wisdom.
24 What the wicked dread will overtake them;
what the righteous desire will be granted.
25 When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone,
but the righteous stand firm forever.
26 As vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes,
so are sluggards to those who send them.
27
The fear of the LORD adds length to life,
but the years of the wicked are cut short.
28 The prospect of the righteous is joy,
but the hopes of the wicked come to nothing.
29 The way of the LORD is a refuge for the blameless,
but it is the ruin of those who do evil.
30
The righteous will never be uprooted,
but the wicked will not remain in the land.
31 From the mouth of the righteous comes the fruit of wisdom,
but a perverse tongue will be silenced.
32 The lips of the righteous know what finds favor,
but the mouth of the wicked only what is perverse.
My rant is done.
P.S. My quotes are straight from the bible, doubt? Look it up yourselves. I'll give a link:
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
1) How was everything made? The VEARY first thing. The first particle?
My Answer in Athiestic view: It was.
My True answer as a Christian: God made everything.
First, the 'atheistic' answer that you provide is not an answer that I've ever heard from a rational atheist, save where they were intentionally trying to troll a theist. Rather than make up an answer and demand that you accept it without being able to prove your claim, the rational atheist instead says, "Gee, I don't know yet."
With that out of the way, let's take a look at your argument, and why it is inherently flawed.
Your argument:
For a thing to exist, it must be made.
The first thing that was made was made by God.
Here's where your argument falls apart:
If a thing must be made in order to exist, and God exists, then God must have been made.
So who made God?
Attempting to avoid that flaw in your argument by claiming that your god is infinite and thus did not have to be made invalidates your argument, because you've just shown that there are exceptions to the rule you claimed to be universal - and thus, it is just as valid for me to counter that if a god can be infinite, then the first bit of energy or matter could have always existed as well, and thus did not need to be made.
Your argument is known as the argument from infinite regressions, and it's why the Watchmaker's Argument is not valid philosophical proof for the existence of any deity.
2) But HOW was it?
My Answer with athiestic view: ...
My True answer as a Christian: (See Above)
At this point you've utterly wrecked your credibility because, as OverZealous shows below, the answer you've provided for the 'atheist' in this case is really just a Christian parody of the answer you would easily receive from any educated atheist.
My Rant is done.
Since you seem to be trying to be clever and snarky intentionally, I'll respond in kind and just say that your rant was over (from a perspective of valid argument) before you typed the first word.
Post by
OverZealous
Well here's my thinking to those who don't believe in God or try to make fun of Christianity/Catholicism (?)
Athiests, I want you to answer these questions:
1) How was everything made? The VEARY first thing. The first particle?
My Answer in Athiestic view: It was.
My True answer as a Christian: God made everything.
Genesis 1:
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
2) But HOW was it?
My Answer with athiestic view: ...
My True answer as a Christian: (See Above)
3) So, you need to BELIEVE that it just happened?
Thing is, with religions. You have to BELIEVE in something, Athiests have to BELIEVE that it all just happened. My Rant is done.
No. When someone asks me how the Universe was created, my answer is typically something like this:
According to the Big Bang model, the universe was originally in an extremely hot and dense state that expanded rapidly. This expansion caused the universe to cool and resulted in the present diluted state that continues to expand today. Based on the best available measurements as of 2010, the original state of the universe existed around 13.7 billion years ago
When someone asks me HOW the Universe was made, the answer is the same as above. Same question.
Science explains exactly how the universe was created, and I find that explanation to be satisfying
and
logical. Religion fails to be both. That is why I'm not religious.
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
2) This question also completely invalidates the existence of a god that is omniscient and omnipotent, because he had to come from somewhere too.
How does that stop God from being omnipotent? Omnipotent and omniscient simply mean all powerful and all seeing.
Post by
xaratherus
P.S. My quotes are straight from the bible, doubt? Look it up yourselves. I'll give a link:
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Quoting the Bible to prove that God exists is like quoting Harry Potter to prove that magic exists. See what we mentioned earlier about circular reasoning, because you're doing the exact same thing.
2) This question also completely invalidates the existence of a god that is omniscient and omnipotent, because he had to come from somewhere too.
How does that stop God from being omnipotent? Omnipotent and omniscient simply mean all powerful and all seeing.
I think what he's (she's?) pointing out is what I mentioned above - the argument from infinite regressions. It's just not real clear.
If you argue that for something to exist, it must be made, then you need a reason to excuse your deity from that same argument, or must also accept that said deity was made as well - which implies that the 'omnipotent' deity was created by an even more 'omnipotenter' deity (since coupled up with this is the argument that a complex creation requires a more complex creator), which means that the original deity wasn't really omnipotent to begin with.
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Edit: Skeeran, asking someone to prove that God exists is like asking one of these guys to prove that the Earth is flat.I'm just saying that before I'll get arguing about the nature of God, let's prove God exists first. See The Courtier's Reply (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharyngula_
(blog)#The_Courtier.27s_Reply).
As for how the universe was made, Stephen Hawking gave a really interesting discussion of that in his book The Grand Design. I don't have time to go over it here, and I'm not a quantum physicist, so even if I did have time, I couldn't do the theory justice, but it made a lot of sense.
Post by
Gone
Ok at this point im not reading a lot of this thread other than whats adressed to me so sorry if this has already been said.
I don't think you understand circular reasoning, Ryajork.
It's not just coming back to the same thing (argument, point, whatever), it's using a conclusion to support a premise (and a premise that supports that conclusion), rather than using proof.
But the whole conclusion that I was trying to make is that there are just some things in this universe that we do not understand, this conclusion by its very nature could be thought of as circular reasoning because like Ex said it could be used to reason any point regarding the nature of God and why he does the things that he does, but like I said that dosnt make it any less valid.
My premise was if there is a God, then he would be a being beyond human intelligence that we natuarly wouldnt understand. Call it circular reasoning all you want, if God does exist than this is true, even the more hardcore skeptic would have to agree with that, even if only on a hypathetical basis.
Im not that 'wordy' a person, but im not an idiot, I understood what he was trying to say, I just didnt agree with it.
As far as I'm concerned, prove there is a god first, and then you can try to argue that he's beyond our understanding.
Lets not be tossing around comments like that either, because one could just eas easily say prove God dosnt exist. And please nobody give me a paragraph of points of what they
think
is proof that God dosnt exist, like somone els said if there was any solid proof one way or another then we would have an answer and people wouldnt be arguing over this, the human race isnt retarded.
Post by
Skreeran
You can't prove something doesn't exist.
Post by
Pwntiff
You can't prove something doesn't exist.
Pretty much. Proving something exists is easy. Proving something doesn't exist requires knowing everything about the entirety of existence in order to definitively says it doesn't.
Also, my stance on the religion debate: Science tries to explain "How?"; Religion tries to explain "Why?". The only "Why?" I'm remotely interested in is philosophical and pertains exclusively to humanity so religion doesn't do much for me.
Post by
Monday
2) This question also completely invalidates the existence of a god that is omniscient and omnipotent, because he had to come from somewhere too.
How does that stop God from being omnipotent? Omnipotent and omniscient simply mean all powerful and all seeing.
A god that had to be created by something else cannot be omnipotent or omniscient.
Just like to say that this cleared absolutely nothing. Luckily Xara answered, but still.
If you argue that for something to exist, it must be made, then you need a reason to excuse your deity from that same argument, or must also accept that said deity was made as well - which implies that the 'omnipotent' deity was created by an even more 'omnipotenter' deity (since coupled up with this is the argument that a complex creation requires a more complex creator), which means that the original deity wasn't really omnipotent to begin with.
If something is omnipotent than it could make something just as complex as itself, no?
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