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Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
HoleofArt
Yes. I know. It's one of these threads. This horse has been abused many times on this forum, but I feel that this deserves its own thread.
Note: This is not a direct attack on the beliefs of Christianity and its sects, but the claims made by it.
Now, let's continue.
This website
truth-saves.com
I discovered while Stumble!-ing earlier today. After having spent a good amount of time on it, I've felt the need to share it with the fellow community. At first, I felt this website was full of complete bias, and expected nothing but to hear how evil Christianity is, etc, etc, etc. This website surpassed my expectations. The website clearly and easily presented each argument with historical facts and references, and has a collection of fallacies and fictitious words, quotes, along with contradictory claims made by the bible itself multiple times.
Wow.
Alright, I haven't had time to check this thread until now, but I feel I should clarify a few things:
1) I am not personally attacking your religion. I'm honestly not. This isn't "bashing" anything. That was not the intent whatsoever, and I'd like it if you stopped treating me as some ignorant religion hater. Just because I linked the site, does not make it my views. As I also stated, I found the site by complete chance.
2) I acknowledged the site was biased. I stated that it exceeded my expectations, and was not as bad as I first perceived, as a website called "truth-saves" is bound to be full of it. Yes, there is bad logic and arguments within it (especially the Jesus not existing part - maybe I should have made the OP a little more clear as to what I did and didn't agree with. It was late and I was in a hurry to get to sleep. My fault). Yes, it is propaganda, which I also stated. I was more interested in where the site showed contradictions made in Christianity and why these contradictions mattered.
3) Really, the point of this thread was supposed to lean towards the Bible itself. I, for one, don't understand how ancient scriptures and the like are supposed to be used as evidence for God, when they've been changed and adapted numerous times throughout history. Another question I have is if your religion is correct, this in many cases, makes others wrong - other religions with just as many ancient scriptures and texts as Christianity. What makes yours the right one?
Honestly, I'm not attacking you. I'm not bashing you. I was never trying to "force atheism down (your) throats". If you noticed, my opening post was fairly lighthearted and I didn't mean for it to be taken in any other way.
I'm adding this quote here in case it gets missed on pg. 11.
I now propose the question to our religious folks among us:
Did a (fairly complete and easy to read) comprehensive presentation of the arguments against Christianity mean anything to you? Did you read it and attempt to without bias and without the mentality of "rawr atheism propaganda MUST SMASH"? And last, but not least, if you are a firm believer of your faith,
what are your reasons and arguments against those proposed by the website?
I'm genuinely interested in any and all opinions - but please for the love of God (pun totally intended) don't swing by with a 1 sentence reply saying "Talked about my belief already, dead horse, blah blah."
Post by
Gone
Ugh
Post by
Cambo
That website is most certainly biased. You can tell by the emotive words such as ...motived ID (Intelligent Design) proponents to make such
blatantly false
claimsother
conflicts fueled by Christianity
and the religion its selfChristianity is harmful
The following is not totally correct:
the Bible's demonization of homosexuals has led to hundreds of millions of homosexuals worldwide being rejected by their families, driven gay & bisexual teens to depression and suicide, and led to violent hate crimes Many cultures and religions frown upon homosexuality.
Children are labeled at birth as "Christian" or "non-Christian" and segregated in many schools. Cannot be blamed on the Bible. Nothing even remotely like this is instructed.
However, as history proves again and again, Christianity has never been directly responsible for a single good deed Lolwhat? Never heard of Mother Theresa?
A comparison between religious and secular societies suggests that religion actually has a negative impact on society. There is a higher rate of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, sexually transmitted disease infections, teen pregnancy, and abortions within religious based societies.
Western European countries such as Sweden and Denmark are primarily secular, yet they have far lower crime rates, better social services for the disadvantaged, and contribute more per capita to international aid than the United States which primarily consists of Christians
.
Scandinavia has the highest suicide rate in the world.
... there no evidence for the exodus. There were also no Jews, Israelites, or Hebrews in ancient Egypt. And contrary to popular belief the pyramids and other great monuments of Egypt were constructed by voluntary workers, not slaves Archaeological digs have revealed various tools and pottery, of which could have only originated from the Hebrew lands. Carbon dating places these items in ancient Egypt. Also, some of the pyramids and monuments were created by voluntary labour, but not all.
This guy claims that the Bible dates certain historical events, but it doesn't mention dates at all.
And then this one is fantastic: "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the
lesser light to rule the night
: he made the stars also."
If the Bible were true then the moon would be a source of light like the sun, only dimmer
Is this guy stupid? The Bible doesn't 'claim' that the moon is a source of light. It just says it's a light. If someone saw a light in the darkness, they would call it a light. Regardless of whether it was reflecting or not.
I can't be bothered going through the rest of the website. I'm all for contrary beliefs, but at least be intelligent about it.
Post by
Gone
That website is most certainly biased. You can tell by the emotive words such as ...motived ID (Intelligent Design) proponents to make such
blatantly false
claimsother
conflicts fueled by Christianity
and the religion its selfChristianity is harmful
Dont forget this one
Since there are no gods we are all technically godless
I summed up all my thoughts, feelings, and opinions about this site in my first post, but in all seriousness this site is the biggest load of atheistic propaganda ive ever seen. It dosnt show unbiased and reasonable arguments as the OP claims. It makes several statements that are outright false, twisting biblical phrases, and a general extremley biased view. The only thing more ridiculas than the actual content was all the pictures of Einstein and Froyd and Issac Newtan plastered everywhere to give the illusion of intelligence.
Finaly I have to ask the OP,
why do you care
, I mean these are beleifs that many people base their lives on, and will take arguments against them personaly. Stuff like this only leads to flaming, its like calling somones child ugly, even of you think its true saying it is pointless.
Post by
Adamsm
If by refuses to die, you mean people still feel the need for religion, then sure.
Post by
ExDementia
Here's a
great site
I stumbled across back in highschool while doing a report on Creationism. You seem to be pretty interested in disproving religious arguments, this site is perfect for it. This guy is pretty much my atheist hero. (Just noticed the site hasn't been updated for a while, but it is still a great read)
The biggest problem with arguing religious topics is the endless and seemingly ubiquitous
circular reasoning
that plagues the religious side of the argument. I have only met a choice few who defend their (religious) side with somewhat compelling arguments.
I think right now my biggest problem with Christianity is the overwhelming hypocrisy practiced daily by it's holy men, and the completely insane narcissism and cruelty by the hands of this "all knowing" and "all merciful" god.God knows all, see's all, and created all, correct?
Well I have a few minor discrepancies with him then.
Lets start from the beginning:
1. How did he not foresee Lucifer (Satan) being the fallen angel?
The very idea of rebellion must have been created by god, if god is the creator of everything, right?
2. Satan tempts us with sin
- an idea not possible with out creation in the first place, and the physical matter that makes up those things that tempt us also need creation. Who created everything? God did. So who created sin? God did.
3. This all merciful and loving god is responsible for pain itself.
(first, read
The Book of Job
) God created hunger, suffering, starvation, murder, torture, and grotesque inequality. Children fortunate enough to be born in America typically enjoy a rich, fulfilling, childhood, while children in Africa and elsewhere, through no fault of their own, are born into poverty, disease, slavery, and many times, an early death.
4. Praising his name will save you from an eternal damnation in hell.
It doesn't matter if you've sinned, as long as you repent and give yourself over to god as your savior, you will be saved. How many times in the bible does it say to praise his name? How many times does it say that worshiping him will earn you a spot in heaven? If that doesn't scream narcissism, I don't know what does.
5. The idea that morality can only be sourced from god.
This one really grinds my gears (cookie for the reference). No one should need rewards hung over their head to live a moral life. I don't abstain rape, murder, pilfering, lies, or cheating because I want the prize at the end, I do it because I am a reasonable, and sympathetic human being.
6. The fact that Christianity is so. Damn.
Profitable.
These men make a fortune off other people's faith while paying no taxes and not having to provide much if any representation of the use of their funds. Those televangelists become millionaires by exploiting the vulnerable. Some of the dirtiest and most successful con-men out there do it in the name of their god.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just the fact that god's own holy men are responsible for molesting so many young (mostly male) children just makes me absolutely sick. Apart from
NAMBLA
, I would say Christianity has the highest number of child rapists of any group out there today (this is not fact, it's a speculation). Just the fact that it is usually a homosexual act is just icing on the cake.
According to
Bishop-Accountability.org
, there have been over 6,000 priests accused of sexual abuse since the 1950's. Great spokesmen, eh? If these people were representing a company, they would have been canned a long time ago, yet, so many of these guys are still free to preach the word of their all mighty god. The one who made all this child rape possible.
Another fun little tidbit:
Radical Islam of today is like a far less extreme version of early Christianity.
We all read about the crusades in school; going around pushing Christianity on people, then, if they don't accept it,
kill them until they do.
This tactic worked fantastic as a way for rulers to justify their agenda; to expand their empire. As a crusader, it was your duty as a good Christian to convert as many to your beliefs as possible, and anyone who could not be swayed was obviously being influenced by the devil, and should be slain.
We all hate Hitler for fueling mass genocide, and rightly so, but how different is it from the mass genocide during the crusades? Killing people for holding different beliefs is just as bad as killing people for holding different beliefs.
IF YOU READ ANYTHING IN THIS POST, LET IT BE THIS PARAGRAPH!
I know that now that mainstream Christianity is much,
much
more lighthearted now, and that most Christians are just plain ol' good people who just want to help. Most Christians take very little of what is in the bible literally at all, and just value it for its good teachings and stories, which I will admit, it does have. I have nothing but a whole bucket load of respect for these people, but not for their faith. I respect them for being good people
by their own right
. Whether they know it or not.\
I just have a problem with Christianity at it's cold, and bloody roots.
It's not just Christianity though, it's all theistic religions.
They are filled with missed steps in very common logic that absolutely no one would believe if they weren't attached to these pretenses. Blind faith requires a certain suspension of common, logical thinking that I think would not last a day if introduced into the modern world, as opposed to being engraved into our brains at such a young age.
TL;DR:
Imagine a world without religion...
I know this post is going to be picked to pieces here, so please make sure you understand what I am trying to say before you quote me on some random part and yell at me about it.
(Holy long post, Batman!)
Post by
ExDementia
I just checked out that website the OP linked, they go a little extreme there and bring up some freaking terrible arguments. The site I linked above is a lot more objective. (first link in my post above)
Post by
Squishalot
Ok, so on reading the OP, I figured this was just yet another pro-atheist website. After reading Cambo and Ryjacork's replies, I see that it's a website that may in fact set back the anti-religious movement entirely.
Let's break it down one step at a time, bit by bit.
1:1 Belief vs Claims
Beliefs come in two forms, most commonly a belief is just a personal opinion. A belief can also be presented as a claim, or even a guess, about what is factually true.
Christianity is not just a collection of personal "beliefs," it is also a collection of claims. Claims that people base personal decisions on, decisions that affect the freedom & well-being of us all.
* Votes & elections are based on these claims
* Laws are based on these claims
* Medical treatments are based on these claims
* Women's rights are based on these claims
* Views of others are based on these claims
* What children are taught about history & science is based on these claims
Ok, let's break this down.
Votes and elections: people vote based on their opinions. Belief.
Laws: laws are established based on what the population wants (via democracy). Belief.
Medical treatments: This one is trickier, as the determinant is usually a mix between a scientific definition, and the interpretation of the science. So, as an example, the definition of when a life is created (pre-birth) is a quasi mix of science and opinion. Having said that, there is no Biblical Christian claim associated with the definition of when a life has started - people form their own
opinions
based on various passages in the Bible. Therefore, Belief.
Women's Rights, views of others: Morality is based on opinion. Murder is not factually right or wrong, yet we still teach that it is bad. Society's moral code is based on belief of what is right and wrong, not factual statements of what is right and wrong. Belief.
What children are taught about history & science: There are very few Christian kids who are being taught that the world was created 6000 years ago. Those few that are are being taught in a school system sanctioned by a democratic board, which is catering to the beliefs / opinions of the community. The exact process is "I believe that the world was created 6000 years ago, and I expect the school to teach my kids that too". It's worth noting that these teachings are most often found as an alternative theory to modern science's claims about the world, not as a statement of facts. Therefore, belief. (Note - there is nothing wrong about guessing about a statement of facts, in the same way that there is nothing wrong with postulating that murder might actually be OK in certain circumstances.)
1:2 Negative Impact Christianity Causes
Lying to the masses: At very least everyone should be more concerned about the false claims of Christianity because people should not be lied to. If you were wrong, wouldn't you want to know?
Begs the question, false argument. There's no evidence that Christians are being lied to.
Attack on equality: All major campaigns, in the US, against gay rights base their motives on the biblical claims that homosexuality is unnatural and a sin.
Their motives, i.e. beliefs? The things that Christians weren't supposed to have, because they're busy making claims?
Murder by faith healing: The Bible claims on multiple accounts that all injuries, diseases, and handicaps will be cured through prayers made by any Christian. Patients who choose faith healing and believe strongly enough that it works become psychologically convinced they are healed and their brain neglects the continued warning pains while the problem only continues to worsen.
Aside from the fact that it's not murder (nor is it even manslaughter or assault), there are no claims that injuries, diseases and handicaps
will
be cured through prayers in the Bible. Any such claims are typically made by people, not by the religion.
Fatally blurring reality: Blurring the line between reality and mythology has led to fatal outcomes. When people credit the voices in their heads, unfiltered thoughts, to a higher power such as "God" rational judgements are removed from the picture.
Most of that is belief. There is nothing in the Bible claiming such things should occur to the average person. Inevitably, the person who makes such claims is as reputable as the guy making alien abduction claims.
Attack on freedom of choice: All decisions pertaining to life should only be based on a factual understanding of life. Almost all "pro-life" groups base their decisions on Bible based counterfactual claims. hey are convinced that a "soul" is inserted somewhere during conception and that that soul must reside in a human body long enough for the human body to develop a brain that is capable of learning about and accepting Jesus. Else that soul will not make it to Heaven.
Actually, there is sufficient evidence in the Bible to suggest that unborn babies will go to Heaven. But having said that, the ideas of a) a soul, and b) that life exists prior to birth aren't limited to religion, just like the idea of 'free will' isn't limited to religion either. You can have agnostic and atheistic people who disagree with abortion as well, for the same reason you can have agnostic and atheistic people who disagree with murder. In fact, most pro-life arguments are exactly that - pro-life, not pro-soul - and focus on the idea that "abortion is murder". That has nothing to do with religion.
Attack on medical research: Those opposed to the greatest cure in the history of mankind all based their decision on claims made in the Bible. Embryonic stem cells require the termination of a 3 day old embryo and many Christians see this as destroying the host of a human soul.
See above. It's not purely a Christian argument. There's also the same issue as genetically modified food - many people are afraid of new scientific technology and the potential health impacts that haven't been identified yet. You don't need to be religious to have fear of the unknown.
I'm running out of time to talk about anything else on that particular page, but the point is, none of what is listed is unique to Christianity, nor are they core beliefs of Christianity. It's strawman - attacking things that appear to be related to Christianity, when in reality, they're related to people whom mainstream Christianity would also shun. It's very easy to identify extreme views in a large community of people, and you can do exactly the same thing (alien abduction, anyone? "Evidence of aliens is evidence against God"?) to the Atheist community as well.
Post by
Gone
Here's a
great site
I stumbled across back in highschool while doing a report on Creationism. You seem to be pretty interested in disproving religious arguments, this site is perfect for it. This guy is pretty much my atheist hero. (Just noticed the site hasn't been updated for a while, but it is still a great read)
The biggest problem with arguing religious topics is the endless and seemingly ubiquitous
circular reasoning
that plagues the religious side of the argument. I have only met a choice few who defend their (religious) side with somewhat compelling arguments.
I think right now my biggest problem with Christianity is the overwhelming hypocrisy practiced daily by it's holy men, and the completely insane narcissism and cruelty by the hands of this "all knowing" and "all merciful" god.God knows all, see's all, and created all, correct?
Well I have a few minor discrepancies with him then.
Lets start from the beginning:
1. How did he not foresee Lucifer (Satan) being the fallen angel?
The very idea of rebellion must have been created by god, if god is the creator of everything, right?
2. Satan tempts us with sin
- an idea not possible with out creation in the first place, and the physical matter that makes up those things that tempt us also need creation. Who created everything? God did. So who created sin? God did.
3. This all merciful and loving god is responsible for pain itself.
(first, read
The Book of Job
) God created hunger, suffering, starvation, murder, torture, and grotesque inequality. Children fortunate enough to be born in America typically enjoy a rich, fulfilling, childhood, while children in Africa and elsewhere, through no fault of their own, are born into poverty, disease, slavery, and many times, an early death.
4. Praising his name will save you from an eternal damnation in hell.
It doesn't matter if you've sinned, as long as you repent and give yourself over to god as your savior, you will be saved. How many times in the bible does it say to praise his name? How many times does it say that worshiping him will earn you a spot in heaven? If that doesn't scream narcissism, I don't know what does.
5. The idea that morality can only be sourced from god.
This one really grinds my gears (cookie for the reference). No one should need rewards hung over their head to live a moral life. I don't abstain rape, murder, pilfering, lies, or cheating because I want the prize at the end, I do it because I am a reasonable, and sympathetic human being.
6. The fact that Christianity is so. Damn.
Profitable.
These men make a fortune off other people's faith while paying no taxes and not having to provide much if any representation of the use of their funds. Those televangelists become millionaires by exploiting the vulnerable. Some of the dirtiest and most successful con-men out there do it in the name of their god.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just the fact that god's own holy men are responsible for molesting so many young (mostly male) children just makes me absolutely sick. Apart from
NAMBLA
, I would say Christianity has the highest number of child rapists of any group out there today (this is not fact, it's a speculation). Just the fact that it is usually a homosexual act is just icing on the cake.
According to
Bishop-Accountability.org
, there have been over 6,000 priests accused of sexual abuse since the 1950's. Great spokesmen, eh? If these people were representing a company, they would have been canned a long time ago, yet, so many of these guys are still free to preach the word of their all mighty god. The one who made all this child rape possible.
Another fun little tidbit:
Radical Islam of today is like a far less extreme version of early Christianity.
We all read about the crusades in school; going around pushing Christianity on people, then, if they don't accept it,
kill them until they do.
This tactic worked fantastic as a way for rulers to justify their agenda; to expand their empire. As a crusader, it was your duty as a good Christian to convert as many to your beliefs as possible, and anyone who could not be swayed was obviously being influenced by the devil, and should be slain.
We all hate Hitler for fueling mass genocide, and rightly so, but how different is it from the mass genocide during the crusades? Killing people for holding different beliefs is just as bad as killing people for holding different beliefs.
IF YOU READ ANYTHING IN THIS POST, LET IT BE THIS PARAGRAPH!
I know that now that mainstream Christianity is much,
much
more lighthearted now, and that most Christians are just plain ol' good people who just want to help. Most Christians take very little of what is in the bible literally at all, and just value it for its good teachings and stories, which I will admit, it does have. I have nothing but a whole bucket load of respect for these people, but not for their faith. I respect them for being good people
by their own right
. Whether they know it or not.\
I just have a problem with Christianity at it's cold, and bloody roots. It's not just Christianity though, it's all theistic religions. They are filled with missed steps in very common logic that absolutely no one would believe if they weren't attached to these pretenses. Blind faith requires a certain suspension of common, logical thinking that I think would not last a day if introduced into the modern world, as opposed to being engraved into our brains at such a young age.
TL;DR:
Imagine a world without religion...
(Holy long post, Batman!)
I dont really like getting into debates about religion online because this is the internet because it tends to get ugly, so Im not really going to take part in some big debate, but I will say just this.
A lot of your arguments seem to revolve around "If God is real why does he allow this, or why didnt he see this comming'. If there is a God then he is a being of a much higher intelligence than a human being, so trying to understand why such a being does or does not do the things he does, is like an ant trying to understand how the human brain works, its just not possible.
Post by
ExDementia
I dont really like getting into debates about religion online because this is the internet because it tends to get ugly, so Im not really going to take part in some big debate, but I will say just this.
A lot of your arguments seem to revolve around "If God is real why does he allow this, or why didnt he see this comming'. If there is a God then he is a being of a much higher intelligence than a human being, so trying to understand why such a being does or does not do the things he does, is like an ant trying to understand how the human brain works, its just not possible.
So God has a reason that we don't understand for inventing suffering, starvation, and the needless slaughter of the innocent? I'm honestly not trying to sound so extreme here, or trying turn this conversation "ugly", but doesn't that just seem like a cop-out?
With that reasoning, any question can be answered with "well, we are too inferior to understand".
This is a prime example of circular reasoning.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Like I said I dont feel like debating, Ive said my peice and the arguments you made in responce could also be called "circular reasoning". A lot of the problems you mentioned are caused by human beings not higher forces.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
I
think
the very root of the problem is human beings creating higher forces to cover there own shortcomings
Your assuming that you are right about the way the universe works, if there IS a God then its not people "creating" anything
Post by
Thror
I think using logic and arguments against religion is like using salt against a snail. You were never really supposed to do that, and i think the Bible has not been intended to hold its ground against an army of pragmatic intellectuals. Faith is blind, the point of faith is to be blind. What is the point of religious discussions?
People have faith because they
want to
. They do not believe in gods only because they have been misinformed and scared and whatnot, but also because true faith can be a nice feeling to hold in your mind. They are not gonna stop believing just because someone points at a website that contains counter-arguments to torn out fragments of some holy text.
Post by
Patty
That website is most certainly biased.
Most material has bias.
Post by
ExDementia
Like I said I dont feel like debating, Ive said my peice and the arguments you made in responce could also be called "circular reasoning". A lot of the problems you mentioned are caused by human beings not higher forces.
I don't think you understand what
circular reasoning
is.
Post by
Frostshamadin
TL;DR
im not a big fan of this kind of topic, i have been a devout christian for a long time now and i get kind of offended to hear misinformed people say that my religion is not logical, the fact is human beings are pretty smart and if there was any clear answer then it would have been found out a long time ago. so no there is no proof of any relgion, but nor is there any proof that there is no god
Post by
Gone
Like I said I dont feel like debating, Ive said my peice and the arguments you made in responce could also be called "circular reasoning". A lot of the problems you mentioned are caused by human beings not higher forces.
I don't think you understand what
circular reasoning
is.
Do you? I mean you accuse me of using circular logic, then link the wiki article... that dosnt explain how I was using circular logic lol.
You accuse me of using circular logic by my argument that if there is a God human beings would not be able to understand the way he works. I said yoy were using circular logic because you came back at me with the exact same argument you used the first time around. these are both circular logic because we can go back and foreth like that forever without reaching any answer, and it dosnt make either of them less valid.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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