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Short tale of stupidity
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Post by
285998
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hank
Coming from a DPS/Healer... It is my opinion that the tank runs the show.
I think the vote to kick option should be available to be used more liberally... So people get in the dungeon, shut the &*!@ up, and do their job.
Post by
Gone
I mean if somebody pulls that #$%^ in heroics then yes kick them or let them die, but while leveling? cmon...
Leveling is SUPPOSED to be when you learn. I mean, when you spell out XP but the measured gain of experience, which is hopefully what you are getting as you play the game. If you set a different standard while leveling you're part of the reason we have heroics where DPS are pulling mobs and causing wipes.
Except that like 80% of the people leveling are rolling alts and not actualy new to the game, and know perfectly well what their doing
Post by
irishsnout
I can understand the op, but there are a few things to take into consideration. Tanks at low levels hold threat by out dpsing the dps. My recount shows overall damage and the tank is almost always first or second. The tank goes in starts aoe or damage, then dps goes. By the time dps can get any really good shots off, the mob is dead. This can hurt the ego of dps that are used to crushing the meters at higher levels. Also, the dps can be very durable. Hunters my have heirloom cloak, helm, chest, shoulders, melee and ranged weapons. Same with warriors. Ive seen mages kite so well, they can pull one or two and burn them down before getting into melee range. Same thing goes for self healing dps.
The best macro I've seen from a tank stated,"give me a second to gather and drop an aoe so this run will go quick and easy." I would put that out there at the start of the run. If dps is getting froggy, then put out the you pull it you tank it macro. Then if dps is dying do a votekick.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I mean if somebody pulls that #$%^ in heroics then yes kick them or let them die, but while leveling? cmon...
Leveling is SUPPOSED to be when you learn. I mean, when you spell out XP but the measured gain of experience, which is hopefully what you are getting as you play the game. If you set a different standard while leveling you're part of the reason we have heroics where DPS are pulling mobs and causing wipes.
Except that like 80% of the people leveling are rolling alts and not actualy new to the game, and know perfectly well what their doing
Which they demonstrate by not doing it right?
Post by
Problimatic
Okay in most situations I'd agree with the OP decision but here I have to go against it. It is deadmines.... A majority (not all but a majority) of people leveling right now have done it before at least once. A lot of those people have BoA items that make them pretty much invincible. While I was leveling my shaman in lfd, I was downright BORED with the healing. If I put earth shield on a tank I could afk autofollow just hitting my earth shield button on totem timers when its stacks got low and that was the whole dungeon. Rarely did I ever have to even use a healing wave. Until you get to stratholme or so, the dungeons in lfd are an absolute cakewalk. One time the tank had to go afk so we went through about 2 bosses and trash in between with a warlock tanking. Seriously the mobs hit for nothing and locks get felguards at level 10 now so why not.
If this were a higher up dungeon I would likely agree with you. (Technically felguard tankign works til about outland due to the fact that it gets felstorm around the level where you normally have to start paying attention.) I have an 85 death knight tank, I don't like dps pulling for me. On the other hand I have a 42 paladin tank, in which case I can pretty much autorun aoe spam aggro and get through the dungeon. Dps don't learn a rotation tbh while leveling until about outlands either unless they research their class. The mobs in lfd can't take 2 hits so why sit there and DoT them up when I can spam aoe and get top meter? The only class that doesn't have an effective aoe at low levels is rogue which can do some pretty hefty dps on its own.
For those saying that you are supposed to learn your role in these low dungeons, the answer is no you aren't. Most people leveling already have done it before, and know what their role is at higher levels and realize that low levels mean nothing. As someone who has done all roles in low dungeons, and at max level, the general opinion at low levels is lets hurry and get this over with. Healers don't run out of mana, there is no high damage spike where you have to use super big heals, and the mobs die VERY quick. Vote to kick should mostly be reserved for morons at max level.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Baseball in Azeroth- Part 2 (The Experienced Player)
Coach: Son- we need to have a talk.
Third Baseman: Why coach? Do you need some pointers?
Coach: No- I need you to calm down and stay at 3rd base.
Third Baseman: Coach, I don't need you to tell me how to play. I was a pitcher for like 12 years, back when this team first started to play. Then I was a designated hitter for like 5 years, and was recognized on a whole bunch of websites as being ranked 12 in our division in RBI. Then I took a break for a few months and tried a different game. Now I'm back, and I want to be a third baseman. But just because I'm new to this position doesn't mean I don't know how to play.
Coach: Right, but have you ever been a baseman before?
Third Baseman: No, but I have seen them for, like, years.
Coach: Ok...because baseman generally don't try and pitch.
Third baseman: I know, but I already know HOW to pitch, and I have a glove which is kind of the same equipment that a pitcher uses, so I decided to pitch.
Coach: But...you're not the pitcher.
Third Baseman: Right, but the pitcher wasn't pitching fast enough for me, and I want to finish this game so I can go do my homework. So I did it for him.
Coach:...That's not how the game works...
Third Baseman: Don't tell me how to play...I've been playing since before you even heard of this game.
Coach: Humor me.
Third Baseman: Fine...God...what a nub.
Coach: Sigh...you need to stay on your side of the field, too. When someone is running to first base, you throw the ball to the first baseman and let them tag them out. You don't need to run across the field and try to do their job for them.
Third Baseman: But I was bored. I was trying to make the game more interesting for myself. And it makes my stats look better when I tag more people out.
Coach: But it's his job to do it. You have to let the other people do their job. It's a TEAM sport.
Third Baseman: But I ALREADY KNOW HOW TO PLAY. It's too easy now. I have to make it more challenging. and I have to make sure my numbers look good. How would it look if I went all season with no strike-outs.
Coach: It would look like you were a third baseman...
Third Baseman: Listen- I know what you're saying- I do. And if this was a championship game, I would totally do it the right way. Because I'm REALLY good at this game, and I know how to play. But this is just the normal season- nothing really important. I'm just going to play this way to amuse myself, and see if the rest of the team can handle me running away with the ball, and pitching. I can do that, you see, because I already know how to play this game.
Coach: Ok...we're bringing in a replacement...
Third Baseman: What? LOL-you nub. I bet this guy hasn't even pitched before. I bet he didn't even see games I used to pitch.
Coach: That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by
Problimatic
Amusing anecdote having nothing to do with the topic at hand being used as an attempted rebuttal.
So because I have leveled each role through the lfd tool before I am a 3rd basemen who has never played 3rd base kthnx
Post by
Yutrippin
ElhonnaDS, you have made me laugh out loud. Twice. At work. Thank you. <3
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Amusing anecdote having nothing to do with the topic at hand being used as an attempted rebuttal.
So because I have leveled each role through the lfd tool before I am a 3rd basemen who has never played 3rd base kthnx
It wasn't aimed at you specifically- there have been a lot of "We know how to play, so we're going to do whatever we want on alts" answers in this thread. You're only the third baseman if you're starting pulls because you're too impatient to wait for the tank, or if you're making the run more difficult for the rest of the party because it amuses you. If you do that, then you are. If you don't, then you're not.
The point I am making (which is related to the discussion at hand) is that a lot of people will make arguments about specific topics, that don't make a whole lot of sense, or that seem to be contrary to their normal ideas about how to act in certain situations. When you take the same kinds of attitudes and behaviors, and demonstrate them outside of the specific circumstances you're debating, it can help illustrate the point that in many instances, the same people who argue for one side in one circumstance, would argue for exactly the opposite side in most similar circumstances.
In this case, I use sports because in my mind, running dungeons and raids is a team-based game, and sports is the closest equivalent. In any other team game, if someone showed up with the wrong equipment, or didn't want to play by the rules and conventions of the game, their teammates would be annoyed with them. They might not even be allowed to finish the game, if what they were doing was disruptive to the rest of the team. Most people, when seeing the above dialogues, think the players are being ridiculous, because in a real-world setting, they know that when you are participating in a team activity, you're supposed to work TOGETHER.
If someone knows that what they are doing is making everyone else's life harder, and they know that, while their team might be able to get past it, things would go a lot smoother if they did their job the right way, and they still mess around, they're just being a troll. If their response to a tank asking that they allow him to pull...or the pitcher asking that they let him do the pitching...is to tell them "Don't tell me how to play"...it's the same thing. It's just in one situation, we KNOW it's absurd. In the other, we don't have to deal with the face-to-face repercussions of being rude, and deliberately annoying other people for no other reason than it makes our day go faster, so a lot of people don't care, or don't think about it.
So, I think the baseball metaphor works wonderfully. Metaphor is a pretty common debate tool, to drive your point home using a reference more people can relate to. If you don't feel it's relevant, that's fine- but a lot of people do. And for a couple of people, it might actually let them see the topic from a new angle.
Post by
Porcell
It wasn't aimed at you specifically- there have been a lot of "We know how to play, so we're going to do whatever we want on alts" answers in this thread. You're only the third baseman if you're starting pulls because you're too impatient to wait for the tank, or if you're making the run more difficult for the rest of the party because it amuses you.
I'm only the third baseman when the pitcher is sitting on the mound eating dirt and I'm tired of standing there.
Post by
Yutrippin
It wasn't aimed at you specifically- there have been a lot of "We know how to play, so we're going to do whatever we want on alts" answers in this thread. You're only the third baseman if you're starting pulls because you're too impatient to wait for the tank, or if you're making the run more difficult for the rest of the party because it amuses you.
I'm only the third baseman when the pitcher is sitting on the mound eating dirt and I'm tired of standing there.
How about when the pitcher and catcher are having a quick discussion? (no sexual innuendo intended)
Post by
Porcell
How about when the pitcher and catcher are having a quick discussion? (no sexual innuendo intended)
Well seeing as in this game of baseball the third baseman can carry the team through all 9 innings by himself and win, let those to sit and chat if they want...
Post by
285998
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dragalthor
I personally do find it very annoying when the DPS pull all the way through a dungeon. Do I get mad and try and kick them? No, because I think, that as a tank, it is my job to get the group through the dungeon alive.
Unlike a lot of players I have only really ever run through a lot of the lower level dungeons at best two or three times and I always tend to say so as soon as I zone in and I am more than happy for the DPS to show me the way or whisper hints if they know the dungeon or have tanked it before. I also usually whisper the healer and ask them their general view of how fast I should be going so as not to starve them of mana.
Unless it is the healer saying 'Go, Go, Go,' I will stick to a steadyish pace so that I and and the group can loot (I am trying to level this toon without any external help and I remember from Vanilla that a lot of my income was from running dungeons). If a DPS wants to go ahead and pull first it's fine, I'll have a go at trying to regain threat on the target but if the DPS dies because of it I won't lose any sleep over the fact.
My first toon was a hunter and I remember all the way through Vanilla, TBC and most of Wrath that the tank set the pace and determined the kill order. I respected that and I expect the same deferral to the tanks role now. Does that make me a bad player?
Post by
173035
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
635092
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
803737
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
Having just leveled a tank, and currently leveling my final healer, I can relate to this. A lot.
As a tank, it can get annoying. If I know the healer, or he/she seems capable, I ask if he/she is O.K. with two tanks. If not, I let the healer tell off the dps, and, worst case scenario, the healer lets the ninja-pulling DPS die. Even worse case scenario, said healer will not even bother throwing him a rezz after the fight.
As a healer, being a priest at the moment, things are so ridiculously easy, we just blew through Shadow Labyrinth at level 68-70 with
3 tanks, me being one of them
, and I never dropped below 70 % mana. Granted, I have every Heirloom but the staff (Got a 1-hand mace from a previous shaman I leveled instead), but even at that point, real tanking wasn't really nessesary. Not healing people who takes damage is not the correct path for a
healer
, but I
will
let people die who pull things they can't handle, if it gives the rest of us a chance of surviving. I would never flash heal the mage who ninja pulled an additional group, when the tank is taking plenty of damage already.
This is as a Holy priest though, so typically, if the 2-h dualwielding Fury dude can't be bothered to click the Lightwell right next to him, that's his repair bill, not mine.
This might also be thanks to the mentality I have been placed in during the last few weeks. Since level... what, 40? People haven't been able to tank. Even in late BC dungeons,
tanks can't seem to keep aggro
. They run in, rend+thunderclap, and 5 seconds later, a single multishot passes through the room, and the next second, 3 mobs are charging towards the poor hunter. I know we might be impatient, because even as a healer, I am too, even to the point of suggesting any capable would-be tank to pull if the tank is too slow. If the guy/gal can't keep threat anyway, what's the point of waiting for the tank to pull in the first place?
But really... anything pre-wrath, and perhaps not even before cataclysm, is so faceroll'able that tagging, CC and taking a 1 minute break between each fight, simply isn't needed. If the tanks luls around for 10 seconds, and everyone is at full mana, and the tank have been told to hurry up previously, I typically ask a feral friend to shift to bear form and pull.
WoW is a small part of my day and I'm not going to sacrifice my gaming experience to deal with people who think the game revolves around them
This applies to the rest of us as well. Tanks who believes the game revolves around them is not even 1 bit better than a healer or dps who thinks that. We are a group. That means we have to reach an agreement of how the dungeon should be tackled, and this requires compromises from all parts. You are the tank, not the leader of the group, regardless of what the dungeon finder might label you as.
As a final note, I do have to agree: Ninja-pulling is bad. Bringing additional non-planned groups into the fight is not good. But ninja-pulling =/= anyone but the tank pulling. A tank who chain-pulls while the healer is attempting to restore mana (Although this mostly applies to 85-heroics), is WORSE than a DPS who pulls before the tank, when everone is ready.
Post by
Astygia
...remarks about BoT...witty stuff...
We get it. You're in a fancy guild. You raid. You're a tank.
This thread is about LFD. DPS in LFD don't need to be dbags. It's not a race, and it's not your guild, and the tank in question is not you.
If everyone does their jobs, things go well. When people decide to be special timmies in one way or another is when things go bad. Stop being special, just do your job.
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