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"Your music takes no skill"
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Post by
ExDementia
This is a bit of a rant:
(Ok, a lot of one)
If you have an opinion on the matter, please take the time to read the entire post and see my examples, I know it's long, but I would rather you not comment at all if you skip over my points here :)
I listen to heavy metal, more specifically death metal and black metal mostly. I can't stand it when people listen to 3 seconds of it and dismiss it as "talentless banging on instruments" (says a co-worker).
Naturally, as an active musician in the genre, I take offense to this.
Technical death metal in particular is one of the most technically advanced genres of music, and a much of the time is played at great speed. With fast alternate picking (guitar), complex time signatures, and heavy use of natural and artificial harmonics (guitar), it gets very difficult to play.
Here's a good example from one of my favorite bands, I know most don't like the music, but you should watch at least a minute or minute and a half through so you can see what goes into playing the song.
Here.
Anyone who plays an instrument especially can appreciate the skill it takes not only to play this, but to write it as well. Keep in mind, this isn't a solo or anything they are trying to be flashy, this
is
the song. (Although it doesn't get much better than when
they do solo
<--- notice the guitar and bass are doing the solo in unison)
The
drums
are absolutely insane as well, I'll go out on a limb and say there is no other genre of music that is as physically demanding of a drummer. Fast
blast beats
(one handed drum roll), fast and precise double bass, and very technical use of just about everything. Try just tapping one hand at 200 bpm (2 hits per beat) with a metronome for 30 seconds. Now add in bass at each pedal playing 16 step notes, and follow it with your other hand every other hit (8 step). That is the most basic version of a staple drum beat in death/black metal. My teacher put it best, the drummers of these bands are freaking athletes. (
Here's the drummer he was talking about
)
For fans of percussion, you have to see that death metal drumming is extremely technical and precise. It takes many years for these drummers to gain the skills necessary to play these complicated rhythm patterns at an often ridiculous speed. The majority of percussion in popular music (with the exception of jazz) are very simple drum patterns, and often the percussion is sampled without a real musician. This is what sells to the public. For those more interested in talented musicians, both jazz and death metal offer excellent avenues to enjoy guitar and drum talent.
Don't even get me started on the
bass guitar
... (bass intro followed by insane instruments all around)
Vocals:
One plays where death metal gets a ton of criticism is in its vocals. The growls are always criticized for their "ugliness", but death growls are just as much an aesthetic to death metal as an instrument, particularly due to the percussive nature of this kind of singing; its harsh, brutal nature is in keeping with death metal's often dark subject matter. It may sound like mindless thrashing of the vocal chords, but when done right, death metal vocalists do everything a "normal" one would do to stay in pitch and to avoid hurting themselves. There is a certain skill-set there to be able to scream and growl consistently without losing your voice, or causing permanent damage like the condition edima.
Mikael Åkerfeldt
is a good example of a vocalist (and guitarist) who uses both death growls and clean styles. He said in an interview that he puts just as much effort into his growls as he does is clean singing styles.
Here
is a song with his growls right in the beginning, and clean not long after.
Here
is a song with no growls, only clean. (One of my favorites as well) As you can see, he is a very well rounded musician, not uncommon in the genre.
Now when I look at the popular music of today, I feel even more insulted. Rap songs that loop the same 2-step beat for 4.5 minutes, pop songs that consist of 4 different chords repeated over and over, and anything by Lady Gaga... There are no auto-tuners in metal, there are no computer generated beats looped endlessly, every member of a good metal band must be a master of their instrument.
Unlike a lot of popular music out today, extreme metal bands almost always
write their own music.
That includes the riffs, drums, solos, and lyrics. Writing your own music demonstrates another dimension of instrumental mastery and talent, as well as making the music more personal and less manufactured. (What's up Rebecca Black?)
I'm not saying that metal is alone in this, classical guitar, violin, piano, etc is very complex to play. Flamenco is extremely technical, jazz fusion takes time signatures to all kinds of crazy places along with some awesome drums, and any established orchestra is an impressive feat.
TL;DR/Bottom line:
Metal is for the most part, a very complex and underrated genre. Even the greatest death metal musicians almost can't make a living with what they do. Death metal is so non-mainstream that its musicians have to work incredibly hard for their career sales to reach even a million copies (which very few death metal musicians have actually done).
More than almost any genre, extreme metal musicians are NOT doing it for the money.
Few of any trade are as dedicated to their craft.
It is extremely insulting to say this music takes no talent, especially when these musicians are doing it for the love of music, not money.
Holy f*** that was long.
Post by
479779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I wouldn't be too fussed - musicians like Rebecca Black also get slammed for being talentless, remember.
I think the key perception is something you noted - you do need some sort of technique to be able to beat fast, but at the end of the day, it's the musical equivalent of hammering a single note over and over again. There's technique involved in fluttering to play repeated notes on a flute, for instance, but if all they're doing is playing a single note, it doesn't matter how fast they repeat the note, people will still think that they're talentless. And really, it's not terribly engaging.
I've got a reasonably high respect for metal guitarists. I think that they're very skilled at playing a melody (if it can be called that - strings of individual notes, anyway) at a very rapid rate. I don't know if it's a limitation of the instrument, however, but I would contend that a world class violinist can do far more, however, that may be due to the fact that there is physically less distance to travel between notes.
And with that in mind, I think we can identify the crux of the issue - the guitarist has a longer stretch to play consecutive notes, and it's physically impossible to play anything as fast as a violinist or pianist.
I don't see anyone really comparing classical guitar to metal - there's no real question that modern guitarists are as skilled as classical ones.
Post by
Haxzor
Dude, everyone knows Metal takes no talent, that's why they do drugs all the time. Nothing better to do
Post by
Squishalot
Example of what guitars can't do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYW63J648i0
from about 5:20 onwards.
Post by
xlanadenx
I try not to get involved in discussions but it absolutely irks me when someone claims to have an idea of what music is and discredits other forms of it because they don't like it.
To generalize that one genre takes less skill than another shows me just how much you know about being a musician. Just because your hands move faster on a guitar does not make you a musician. It just means you are dexterous. The fact that you were able to do that and make it sound good is what makes you a musician to me. Perhaps I'm going a bit overboard with this post and taking this the wrong way but here goes.
It's not the fact that you have multiple people working together to make a song that makes a musician(s). It's the fact that you have people working together and the instruments blend
well
. Sure Rap and Pop may use synthetic beats to make a song but that's not what makes those things music. The lyrics that the song brings make those genres music. Not everything has to have deep meaning, some music can be used to entertain. Rap has lyrics that can make you think
The one thing that seems to cause such claims against genres like yours, ExDementia, is the publicity of bad musicians. I could sit here and name bad metal
bands
all day but would that sway your opinion? No. Because you know better. You know there are damn good metal bands out there or else that genre wouldn't have stayed alive. You have your Metallica and Megadeth and you have your Tokio Hotel. (I lump them together because subgenres have become too confusing to follow these days.) All of those took some degree of skill to put together.
Just like there are
"bad"
rap artists there are some
good
artists
out there who are skilled. Music, no matter what genre, goes a lot deeper than what's on the surface but I won't preach music theory as I feel that I'm not qualified to give my opinion on that.
I won't touch Bieber too much because of all the bandwagoners out there just waiting for an excuse to rag on him. I've looked at his lyrics and I know that if I said to a girl that I wanted there to be one less lonely girl out there and he hadn't come around with that, I would be wearing a smile later that night. Chances are he didn't write those songs at all but he sang them. He beat us all to the punch. Someone out there was brilliant enough to form that thought/write it and now Bieber gets the women because of it.
Most of all, it boils down to what you like. It could be the most
disorganized
song in the world and some people will still enjoy it. Why? I don't know. It's their preference. As long as someone was skilled enough to put it together and make it enjoyable, it's music to me. Perhaps I've taken your original post in an entirely different direction, Ex, but I just felt like I should give my opinion on music as a whole. If that's the case, I'm sorry.
P.S. Please don't think that because I addressed you in my post that the entire thing is directed at you. Also, I listed God Dethroned as bad musicians because to me, they're trying too hard and it's a bit obvious. =/
Edit: Now I wait for someone to come along and tear me a new one.
Post by
Squishalot
I've looked at his lyrics and I know that if I said to a girl that I wanted there to be one less lonely girl out there and he hadn't come around with that, I would be wearing a smile later that night.
Edit: Now I wait for someone to come along and tear me a new one.
"Before they outlaw the
kiss
, baby give me one last
hug
"
His inane lyrics aside, if you said what you quoted in an Australian bar, you'd be laughed out of the venue.
Someone out there was brilliant enough to form that thought/write it and now Bieber gets the women because of it.
I'm happy to avoid all the vapid teenage fangirls, personally. I don't know any
women
who fangirl over Bieber.
</endrant>
Anyway, what you're saying makes it even less meaningful to criticise metal. If you don't appreciate it, it just means you're not respecting what musical skill is there.
Post by
OverZealous
People who say metal (especially, as you say, Death Metal) is "talentless banging on instruments" have absolutely no clue and need to be ignored. Nothing more to it.
Post by
ExDementia
I just want to make sure to say, since I wasn't that clear in my first post, I respect musicians even from genres I can't stand, such as rap. Mostly the lesser known guys that have true talent like Nas and Tech N9ne. I have tons of respect for those guys, and I don't really mind when things like that are playing, and I'll actually listen to the lyrics when they're
ACTUALLY SAYING SOMETHING
(I suggest listening to that story). The ones I was referencing in my post were ones like 50 cent and lil jon who just repeat catchy phrases or simple sentences over and over again. Then, in the non-chorus parts, they just string together sentences that rhyme, but have nothing to do with each other really.
I agree with what you guys are saying for the most part.
Also, Squish, I am a huge fan of classical violin as well. (If you said you were)
Violin version
Guitar version
Post by
Lombax
Death metal do take skill, I personally know no one wo would say it doesn't. The only music that doesn't take skillz is if I would make some.
Post by
irishsnout
I can't see how someone can say a certian type of music is under rated or misunderstood, then go on to say that other styles are talentless. Pop music is not supposed to be complex. Its supposed to be sinple and fun. Metal is supposed to be heavy. Rap is all about the lyrics. Each stly of music needs to be respected for what it is. I play guitar, read guitarworld and go to concerts all the time. Most serious artists pull from all styles.
Post by
ExDementia
I can't see how someone can say a certian type of music is under rated or misunderstood, then go on to say that other styles are talentless. Pop music is not supposed to be complex. Its supposed to be sinple and fun. Metal is supposed to be heavy. Rap is all about the lyrics. Each stly of music needs to be respected for what it is. I play guitar, read guitarworld and go to concerts all the time. Most serious artists pull from all styles.
Check my last post there buddy.
I respect musicians even from genres I can't stand, such as rap.
The things I said were talentless are the ones that just so happen to be some of the most popular, and sell themselves out for what makes the most money. Like
This
and
This
which are a disgrace to real rappers out there.
Also I listed quite a few different genres of music I greatly respect.
Post by
xlanadenx
Anyway, what you're saying makes it even less meaningful to criticise metal. If you don't appreciate it, it just means you're not respecting what musical skill is there.
I'm saying that there's a difference between appreciating music and getting enjoyment out of it.
I'm not too fond of growling myself but that doesn't mean I don't listen to the music. A lot of the like have some good stories to tell, I just hate having to pull up the lyrics to understand it. Something like God Dethroned just makes me want pat them on the head for trying whereas Emperor has some tracks that I like and respect.
God Dethroned
- I can understand what they're saying off the bat but it's cheesy.
Emperor
- I have to pay extra attention to the lyrics and even pull out their album book to understand it. It doesn't make me think less of them, it's just a bit tedious so I try not to go out of my way to listen to them.
It comes to mind that I didn't link any good metal bands, I hope you didn't take that as a stance against metal. I love metal. Particularly Megadeth. Not to mention the album art is &*!@ing gorgeous and the symbolism is powerful.
This may sound a bit contradictory but to me, the lyrics tell the story and the music conveys the emotion. It's hard to look past the lyrics if they're horrible but if you can get the two to work together... That's music.
(to me)
I'll admit that using Bieber was a bad example, though.
Off topic-ish: Does anyone else here like to listen to music and pick apart the individual beats and instruments?
TL;DR: Everyone has an opinion. (Which appears to be the conclusion to any discussion come to think of it.)
Edit: Fixed my expression.
Post by
LookOut
I feel your pain. When I was at university I told my class mates (party chicks mostly) that I listened to melodic metal and symphonic metal. They were surprised there was such a thing as melodic metal ... aka they thought metal had 0 melody :@
Post by
ExDementia
I feel your pain. When I was at university I told my class mates (party chicks mostly) that I listened to melodic metal and symphonic metal. They were surprised there was such a thing as melodic metal ... aka they thought metal had 0 melody :@
Lol, its pretty funny actually. Try telling people you listen to folk metal... lots of confused faces. Too bad too, it's an amazingly diverse genre when you consider the different styles mixed together. Classic Celtic and traditional Scandinavian styles mixed with metal. One of my favorite styles actually, not sure why I didn't mention it in my OP. That's a good example of how diverse these musicians are, but that's by no means exclusive to the genre.
Post by
124027
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
variable303
A wise man once said the following:
They don't think it be like it is, but it do...
Post by
Azazel
If I were you, I'd tell him that being ignorant doesn't take any skill either. Belief and courage does. Humans are naturally afraid of the unkown and thus he may just be hatin' because he doesn't know anything about it.
Post by
mindthegap5
Four chord song says hi
Post by
324987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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