This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Heirlooms in battleground
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Squishalot
I know. But then again, consider my earlier question - would you enchant a pair of one-handers with +15 agi each if you were going to replace them in a couple levels time?
My main point was that blue items of equivalent level are of equivalent stats to heirloom items. The fact that a hunter will use paired daggers is irrelevant to the point that a blue dagger will be a heirloom's equal at the appropriate level.
Balanced Heartseeker
One-Hand Dagger
41 - 77 Damage Speed 1.70
(35.0 damage per second)
+8 Agility
Item Level 1
Equip: Increases your hit rating by 4 (0.55% @ L48).
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 6 (0.56% @ L48).
Sentinel's Blade
Binds when picked up
Unique
One-Hand Dagger
41 - 78 Damage Speed 1.70
(35.3 damage per second)
+11 Agility
+5 Stamina
Durability 65 / 65
Requires Level 48
Item Level 53
Bonescraper
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Dagger
34 - 65 Damage Speed 1.40
(35.3 damage per second)
+9 Agility
+6 Stamina
Durability 65 / 65
Requires Level 48
Item Level 53
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 6 (0.56% @ L48).
http://www.wowhead.com/items=2?filter=qu=3;ty=15;minrl=1;maxrl=50#0-3+1
There aren't that many level gaps if you went out of your way to look for drops and planned your dungeons accordingly.
Post by
xaratherus
To me, the whole idea of the thread smacks of entitlement. Player A has BetterGearX; I cannot get BetterGearX yet because I'm on a new player; thus, either Player A should not be able to use BetterGearX, or I should be able to get BetterGearX more quickly in order to compete.
It seems to me the same sort of mindset that led to the easily-obtained epics of Wrath, toward which there were no end of complaints. Blizzard can't win for losing.
Post by
Interest
To me, the whole idea of the thread smacks of entitlement. Player A has BetterGearX; I cannot get BetterGearX yet because I'm on a new player; thus, either Player A should not be able to use BetterGearX, or I should be able to get BetterGearX more quickly in order to compete.
It seems to me the same sort of mindset that led to the easily-obtained epics of Wrath, toward which there were no end of complaints. Blizzard can't win for losing.
That's not really the point at all.
It's more of the issue that a new player is at a disadvantage in Battlegrounds on the account of being a new player, which ruins the experience for the new player(s). The gap does close as people level up, fortunately.
You can compare heirlooms with alot of armor you would get at 29,39,49,etc....and they will all be as good as each other. If you dont want to spend the time getting geared the old fashion way of twinking then dont cry about people with heirlooms because the playing field could always be leveled, you just gotta take the time to make it even.
You also forgot that you have to:
Pray that the item drops.
Lock experience if it doesn't.
In cases of dungeon drops, anyways.
Post by
ExDementia
I'm leveling my rogue with intellect leather chest and shoulder BoA's through BG's and I do pretty well. It's not the stats they bring as much as it is the player. I just use them because I had them left over from my druid and wanted the xp buff.
Players with heirlooms =/= twinks.
Now I'm leveling a mage through BG's with no BoA's and I am also doing just fine, but then again it's a frost mage...
Post by
xaratherus
To me, the whole idea of the thread smacks of entitlement. Player A has BetterGearX; I cannot get BetterGearX yet because I'm on a new player; thus, either Player A should not be able to use BetterGearX, or I should be able to get BetterGearX more quickly in order to compete.
It seems to me the same sort of mindset that led to the easily-obtained epics of Wrath, toward which there were no end of complaints. Blizzard can't win for losing.
That's not really the point at all.
It's more of the issue that a new player is at a disadvantage in Battlegrounds on the account of being a new player, which ruins the experience for the new player(s). The gap does close as people level up, fortunately.
Well, but how is that different from any of hundreds of other games? For instance, if I were to go pick up a starter deck for Magic the Gathering and then hop into a tournament, I'd likely get my butt handed to me - not only because of a lack of experience, but also because the other players would have a larger library of cards from which to build their decks. If I were to go hop into a tabletop D&D game as a level 1 character, and the rest of the party were level 4, I'd be at a disadvantage because the foes I'd face would be significantly higher level than me.
So to me that really is the point. People seem to think that a new player should be able to hop in and be competitive in competition against veteran players. but that isn't some universal law.
Nor do I think it's fair to argue that it 'ruins' the experience for every beginning player. It will only ruin their experience
if
they're of the mindset that the playing field should always be leveled. And I'd be willing to bet that mindset would only last until the new player starts getting some skill and gear - and then if you asked them again, they'd respond, "What, and give up my heirlooms? You crazy?"
Post by
Interest
If I were to go hop into a tabletop D&D game as a level 1 character, and the rest of the party were level 4, I'd be at a disadvantage because the foes I'd face would be significantly higher level than me.
Bad example. You will level up significantly faster purely on account of D&D's design. In addition, the DM can give you some side quests to do to "catch up." Finally, encounters can be designed to be of a certain challenge rating, but have very low challenge rating monsters (i.e. packs of low CR monsters make for a higher CR encounter, and you can at least contribute).
For instance, if I were to go pick up a starter deck for Magic the Gathering and then hop into a tournament, I'd likely get my butt handed to me - not only because of a lack of experience, but also because the other players would have a larger library of cards from which to build their decks.
For MTG, with a starter deck it's possible to actually beat out some custom designed decks. Some of them are actually not that badly made. They might not synergize as well as a "sliver deck" or something, but they do work. They can have removal cards, counter cards, and the like. You're on a pretty similar playing field and to be honest, the only disadvantage I can think of beyond inexperience is the fact you didn't get to customize your deck.
"What, and give up my heirlooms? You crazy?"
I am partially inclined to just say "disable them in battlegrounds" if there wasn't honor-purchased heirlooms. There's definitely a better way than to completely remove them from the battlegrounds. Blizzard's already taken a pretty decent step towards it by making level differences in brackets smaller and giving players access to some better gear through questing and the like. They're still far off from perfect, however.
Post by
xaratherus
If I were to go hop into a tabletop D&D game as a level 1 character, and the rest of the party were level 4, I'd be at a disadvantage because the foes I'd face would be significantly higher level than me.
Bad example. You will level up significantly faster purely on account of D&D's design. In addition, the DM can give you some side quests to do to "catch up." Finally, encounters can be designed to be of a certain challenge rating, but have very low challenge rating monsters (i.e. packs of low CR monsters make for a higher CR encounter, and you can at least contribute).
And you can contribute to a battleground without wearing heirlooms as well. As I was leveling my Warrior (heirloom weapon, chest, and shoulders) I was sometimes killed by people who weren't wearing heirloom gear. Did I the heirlooms give me an advantage? Yes. Was that advantage insurmountable? No.
But it isn't the best example; the comparison is valid, but only so far.
For instance, if I were to go pick up a starter deck for Magic the Gathering and then hop into a tournament, I'd likely get my butt handed to me - not only because of a lack of experience, but also because the other players would have a larger library of cards from which to build their decks.
For MTG, with a starter deck it's possible to actually beat out some custom designed decks. Some of them are actually not that badly made. They might not synergize as well as a "sliver deck" or something, but they do work. They can have removal cards, counter cards, and the like. You're on a pretty similar playing field and to be honest, the only disadvantage I can think of beyond inexperience is the fact you didn't get to customize your deck.
That might be the case now. It definitely wasn't when I started playing. Try jumping in and beating someone using some alpha cards using a starter of the third release set (the name escapes me right now); if you win, then the person you're playing against is just really bad. I got to the point where I would only play in sealed deck tournaments until I had roughly trebled my card library and could put together a deck that stood a chance against the alpha and beta players.
But again, I point out that going up against someone with heirlooms does
not
make the fight impossible. So the situation, as it stands now, is more akin to what you're suggesting above; those arguing that heirlooms somehow make the person an undefeatable god? Gang up on them; you'll take 'em down.
"What, and give up my heirlooms? You crazy?"
I am partially inclined to just say "disable them in battlegrounds" if there wasn't honor-purchased heirlooms. There's definitely a better way than to completely remove them from the battlegrounds. Blizzard's already taken a pretty decent step towards it by making level differences in brackets smaller and giving players access to some better gear through questing and the like. They're still far off from perfect, however.
Blizzard tried to work around this problem with the separation of twinks from BGs. It didn't work all that well because they didn't want to wait longer for queues. The only 'solution' I see would be to implement something like that for heirloom-wearers - but again, I wouldn't expect it to work out that well.
And to be honest, I still don't see it as a huge problem anyway. Maybe it's a difference in my battlegroup. My roommate is working on leveling a character right now through BGs only; it's on a new server so he has no heirlooms. He'll occasionally get frustrated, but those times when he takes down someone wearing heirloom gear? The victory for him is all the better.
Post by
Interest
That might be the case now. It definitely wasn't when I started playing. Try jumping in and beating someone using some alpha cards using a starter of the third release set (the name escapes me right now); if you win, then the person you're playing against is just really bad. I got to the point where I would only play in sealed deck tournaments until I had roughly trebled my card library and could put together a deck that stood a chance against the alpha and beta players.
But again, I point out that going up against someone with heirlooms does not make the fight impossible. So the situation, as it stands now, is more akin to what you're suggesting above; those arguing that heirlooms somehow make the person an undefeatable god? Gang up on them; you'll take 'em down.
One more thing about that.
There's a reason there's draft tournaments. No such option in WoW.
And you can contribute to a battleground without wearing heirlooms as well. As I was leveling my Warrior (heirloom weapon, chest, and shoulders) I was sometimes killed by people who weren't wearing heirloom gear. Did I the heirlooms give me an advantage? Yes. Was that advantage insurmountable? No.
Yes, but it's not even remotely as possible to contribute as it is in Dungeons and Dragons. So many ways an underlevel character can contribute. They don't even have to be combat related (oh hi Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate checks).
Blizzard tried to work around this problem with the separation of twinks from BGs. It didn't work all that well because they didn't want to wait longer for queues. The only 'solution' I see would be to implement something like that for heirloom-wearers - but again, I wouldn't expect it to work out that well.
Didn't want to wait longer for queues my ass. 90% of the time they're Unavailable. Effectively killed most twink brackets except AV 51-60, 61-70 (which was kinda killed off by the new brackets, but it's still doable).
Post by
MrSCH
Sliver decks are %^&*ing rediculous.
@ Squish OK, I was wrong. I don't hold the same opinion as I did but i'll still QQ when a Paladin steamrolls me with all 5 heirlooms on :(
@Murdurr, your point is decent but for example at low levels Hunters faceroll Warlocks Heirlooms or not - doesn't make you a bad player, it makes low level PvP mechanics somewhat unbalanced.
Post by
Sweetscot
Sliver decks are %^&*ing rediculous.
@ Squish OK, I was wrong. I don't hold the same opinion as I did but i'll still QQ when a Paladin steamrolls me with all 5 heirlooms on :(
@Murdurr, your point is decent but for example at low levels Hunters faceroll Warlocks Heirlooms or not - doesn't make you a bad player, it makes low level PvP mechanics somewhat unbalanced
.
I think this is actually alot more of the issue that people have with low level bg and attribute the imbalance to gear instead. A hunter stunned by a pally in melee is toast at some levels almost regardless of either toon's gear. Hunters steamroll alot of people at lower levels...completely regardless of gear.
Post by
Chanak
The problem isn't the heirlooms, the problem is mostly the same problem (in the 19 and to some extent the 29 brackets) as it was before twinks were moved.
The enchants have always been the problem. I remember they tried putting level restrictions (requires level blah or it does nothing, not ilvl requirement) on some (but not all) and got 2 lots of complaints "damage is insane if you leave the dps ones allowed" and "don't you dear ever take something away from me, even if it's for the good of the game".
I wish they went through with that, but did it across the board really, and come out with a lot more "oops, you shouldn't have been able to get that, sorry". Yes, it sucks for the people that worked to get the gear, but not doing that put twinks where they are now.
The other side of the problem is scaling is way out of whack at lower levels. Anyone (for the most part) can get gear that's at least competitive to heirlooms, and for some classes and abilities, you don't even need the enchants.
I never agreed with removing twinks (and I don't twink, btw, I've thought about it, never did it), I always thought they should just reign in the enchants/items not intended for those levels, suffer the qqstorm (and you know there'd be one) and work from there. (ie. working on scaling)
It also amuses me that they were so gung-ho about hotfixing 85's to the point that specs were having to regem/reforge/rel2play/etc every week (k, not quite that much, but you get the point) where they could have (and should have) taken a similar method for lowbie pvp (well, it's not just pvp, the op specs/classes/etc are still by far the easiest classes to use in solo/pve at that level) with a lot less detrimental impact to the game. (Especially given PvE balance at that level is not really a huge problem).
tldr:
Heirlooms aren't the problem.
Enchants are one of the major contributing factors.
You also have the problems with the scaling of some abilities.
And Blizzard was too scared to upset people by fixing what they should have.
Post by
MrSCH
I've totally changed my mind. i'm in full healer heirlooms, hunter is in full heirlooms I assume. I'm fully enchanted, I assume he is to.
aimed shot crit me for
more than my health.
In what world is that fair/balanced/whatever the word you want to use is?
Slightly off topic, but I've always had an issue with the cloth heirlooms having nowhere near enough survivability at lower levels.
Post by
Interest
Sliver decks are %^&*ing rediculous.
@ Squish OK, I was wrong. I don't hold the same opinion as I did but i'll still QQ when a Paladin steamrolls me with all 5 heirlooms on :(
@Murdurr, your point is decent but for example at low levels Hunters faceroll Warlocks Heirlooms or not - doesn't make you a bad player, it makes low level PvP mechanics somewhat unbalanced.
=D I knew someone would understand.I've totally changed my mind. i'm in full healer heirlooms, hunter is in full heirlooms I assume. I'm fully enchanted, I assume he is to.
aimed shot crit me for
more than my health.
In what world is that fair/balanced/whatever the word you want to use is?
Slightly off topic, but I've always had an issue with the cloth heirlooms having nowhere near enough survivability at lower levels.
Wow.
But also keep in mind Aimed Shot is a bit over the top at lower levels atm. Chimera Shot too. That's partially due to ability design.
Post by
MrSCH
Aye don't get me wrong, I came out of the BG with 80+ HKs, 11k healing done and many thanks! But when they focus you, you're fooked :P
Post by
Interest
Aye don't get me wrong, I came out of the BG with 80+ HKs, 11k healing done and many thanks! But when they focus you, you're fooked :P
Yeah. I understand what you mean there.
Hunters in lower level BGs have been broken since like, Wrath (or earlier), however. This isn't exactly anything new. What they really need to do is somehow reduce Hunter burst and/or pet damage (but keep threat about the same with Growl active so you don't pull off the pet in a couple attacks).
Post by
Murrdurr
You can compare heirlooms with alot of armor you would get at 29,39,49,etc....and they will all be as good as each other. If you dont want to spend the time getting geared the old fashion way of twinking then dont cry about people with heirlooms because the playing field could always be leveled, you just gotta take the time to make it even.
You also forgot that you have to:
Pray that the item drops.
Lock experience if it doesn't.
In cases of dungeon drops, anyways.
True enough, when I twinked out a rogue back in BC with the help of my friend it seemed like I had alot of luck, my rogue was completely twinked out within only 2 days (I did work on the battlemaster arena trinket before starting to twink him out in gear though, the trinket took me about a week to finish) and I wrecked the 19,29,39 brackets before wanting to level him up for lvl60 pvp.
Post by
146856
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
Here is a though. Get to 85 grind all the JC points and Guild points to get BoA and make a twink and go own ppl. Simple as that.
No need to complain.
True, but what about for new players coming in the first time around?
The difficulty of doing Battlegrounds probably surpasses the infuriating pain of leveling to 60 in Vanilla WoW.
Post by
146856
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
206732
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.