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Heirlooms in battleground
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Also, since when are a persons alt not that person?
What does that even mean?
My first toon on a new realm can't compete with the heirloom twinks, even though I'm perfectly willing to put the effort into making it competitive. But because blizzard only pretends to hate twinks, I'm stuck being unable to help my team to my full extent, thus making battlegrounds less fun and less lucrative. Thus we have a broken system.
While someone might argue that the old twinking system was broken too, it at least had something going for it that the new system does not: the ability to put work into your toon and make him able to compete... at whatever level you want.
Post by
Interest
So, they broke regular twinking which was possible for anyone, and brought back a bastardized twinking that is not possible for everyone.
I'll agree with you there.
The cost of heirlooms is too impractical to make them worth farming anyways (while leveling).
Post by
Squishalot
And how is not practically working anymore not under the category of broken?
Impractical =/= broken.
For example, it's impractical to level Timbermaw rep for good gear, when it'll be replaced soon after. As a function, it's not broken.
A better example is Interest's point:
Actually, HSR, you can get heirlooms as low as level 10. (honor heirlooms) and 70 (JP heirlooms). Guild heirlooms can be gotten with the appropriate rep amount (though for practical purposes, to get beyond neutral with your guild you need to be 80 to 85). I can confirm this because my friend, who has no character above level 70, purchased an heirloom through honor.
Is it practical? No. But it's not broken either.
The problem is that you associate twinking with 'staying at a single level and defeating lesser-geared BG opponents'. The only difference between 'then' and 'now' is that you can't stay at a single level and have all the leveling noobs to kill. You can argue that that change 'breaks' twinking, but at the end of the day, you can still "put work into your toon and make him able to compete". The only difference is that once you fall out of the bracket, you need to put a bit more work in.
The total amount of work done to get full heirlooms on a character is significantly more than the amount of work required to twink a character in non-heirloom gear, even if it does require a high level character. That extra work is rewarded with the ability to be twinked at all levels. All in all, you're comparing the work of someone who's spent a lifetime on their server (to get their heirlooms) to your brand new toon, and you're complaining that they outgear you and that's a bad thing?
If you spent a few hours doing some random dungeons and picking up gear, you'd be just as twinked out as them, especially with blue level-appropriate dungeon rewards. I don't see it as an issue.
Post by
Interest
Is it practical? No. But it's not broken either.
I didn't say it was. Just that it's possible.
Post by
Squishalot
Is it practical? No. But it's not broken either.
I didn't say it was. Just that it's possible.
No, wasn't aimed at you. I was trying to explain to HSR that impractical =/= broken using your example.
Post by
Interest
The total amount of work done to get full heirlooms on a character is significantly more than the amount of work required to twink a character in non-heirloom gear, even if it does require a high level character
That actually depends on the bracket/class. Heirlooms are blind to bracket/class (they work in all, and all you have to do is choose the right item at the vendor), but some gear for brackets based on class are much more difficult/expensive than others.
Also, heirlooms often come with ratings. They can be quite crucial depending on what they are (Resilience is pretty powerful at lower levels iirc, and they don't exist on any form of twink gear prior to about 60-70). Though mercifully, some of the dungeon quest rewards are starting to have ratings (not resilience, though).
Just wanted to point that out.
If you spent a few hours doing some random dungeons and picking up gear, you'd be just as twinked out as them, especially with blue level-appropriate dungeon rewards. I don't see it as an issue.
Again, this depends. Some classes won't have gear designed for them that you can get from walking into a dungeon for that bracket. This is why heirlooms are so great. They work universally for any level. They may not be the best in slot at some level, but they can be at others.
Post by
cloudp
Hm. The old Twinks were worse imo.
I remember having a priest decked in blues at 19 (The battleground ones I could get) to around 800-900HP, and I could still get 1-2shot. I've seen a Druid get full buffs o 2400 or 3400 (can't recall) HP in Bear. While I was gearing,
I could not kill an AFK rogue exhausting my mana twice
, with how absurd his HP pool was.
Anyway, I'm sorry, but back then you couldn't work you way into a level 19 twink to it's best without significant frustration. Low level enchants were such a niche and sometimes so rare they'd be found for no less than thousands of gold. Heirlooms at least fixed that a bit, prices started dropping dramatically since there was a lot more demand. It was possible, no doubt, but you had to play smart on the economy of the auction house - something that would take a significant time investment. Back then it wasn't easier to get your char to fight twinks, it was harder.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
For example, it's impractical to level Timbermaw rep for good gear, when it'll be replaced soon after. As a function, it's not broken.
Yes, because broken is relative. And it less practical that it was before, and thus there is something broken in the system.
If your blender's blade speed drops down to 50% speed, it can still chop, just lest practically. Your blender is still broken though, and you'll try to fix it. If the handle of your saw breaks off, you can still whittle through things with just the blade, it's just less practical than before. Thus your saw is broken.
The problem is that you associate twinking with 'staying at a single level and defeating lesser-geared BG opponents'.
Then explain how I'm calling the use of heirlooms in regular battlegrounds 'twinking' if that's how I'm associating it?
I'm associating twinking with getting the best gear for your toon at any specific level. That's what it means to twink. Now, as a practical matter, it's near impossible to twink without heirlooms if you're not exp-capped because you'll be out-leveling gear as fast as you get it. So, without heirlooms, would twinking consist in stopping-exp? Yes. Does that mean twinking = stopped-exp? No.
The only difference between 'then' and 'now' is that you can't stay at a single level and have all the leveling noobs to kill.
No, the difference is that many toons cannot compete in low level bgs because of heirlooms which they cannot get (or reasonably get if you insist). It's a
low level bg
for ^&*!'s sake! Why a chunk of the leveling population should be able to compete in it is beyond me.
You can argue that that change 'breaks' twinking, but at the end of the day, you can still "put work into your toon and make him able to compete". The only difference is that once you fall out of the bracket, you need to put a bit more work in.
Being unable / severely handicapped in getting the best gear is very much a break
The total amount of work done to get full heirlooms on a character is significantly more than the amount of work required to twink a character in non-heirloom gear, even if it does require a high level character. That extra work is rewarded with the ability to be twinked at all levels. All in all, you're comparing the work of someone who's spent a lifetime on their server (to get their heirlooms) to your brand new toon, and you're complaining that they outgear you and that's a bad thing?
You're the only one "comparing work." I don't know why you're filling all your replies to me with it. I don't care about the difference between a weeks worth of work in one case or 3 weeks of work in another. Farming guild rep at level 19 however, is a ridiculously broken thing to have to do to compete at that level. And that only gets you some of the gear.
Post by
Interest
Hm. The old Twinks were worse imo.
I remember having a priest decked in blues at 19 (The battleground ones I could get) to around 800-900HP, and I could still get 1-2shot. I've seen a Druid get full buffs o 2400 or 3400 (can't recall) HP in Bear. While I was gearing,
I could not kill an AFK rogue exhausting my mana twice
, with how absurd his HP pool was.
Anyway, I'm sorry, but back then you couldn't work you way into a level 19 twink to it's best without significant frustration. Low level enchants were such a niche and sometimes so rare they'd be found for no less than thousands of gold. Heirlooms at least fixed that a bit, prices started dropping dramatically since there was a lot more demand. It was possible, no doubt, but you had to play smart on the economy of the auction house - something that would take a significant time investment. Back then it wasn't easier to get your char to fight twinks, it was harder.
Well that was partially due to the brackets having a 9 level difference as well as other various reasons.
Post by
Sweetscot
Also, since when are a persons alt not that person?
What does that even mean?
My first toon on a new realm can't compete with the heirloom twinks, even though I'm perfectly willing to put the effort into making it competitive. But because blizzard only pretends to hate twinks, I'm stuck being unable to help my team to my full extent, thus making battlegrounds less fun and less lucrative. Thus we have a broken system.
While someone might argue that the old twinking system was broken too, it at least had something going for it that the new system does not: the ability to put work into your toon and make him able to compete... at whatever level you want.
It means that heirlooms are available to YOU. You level the first toon, get heirlooms...there they were available to you.
Also...how HOW can people compare going against an heirloom toon to going against a rogue in legkit, head enchant, mongoose?
Explain to me how...pre xp locking...you could roll a new toon on a new server and twink it well enough to complete with the old twinks? You needed a high level to get twinked then the same as you do now. You could only run a few dungeons before you hit the level you wanted to twink at then you couldn't do anymore pve for gear...you could attempt to make enough cash at low level to buy boe blues and enchants but it would have taken a ridiculously long time...longer than just leveling and using the first toon to fund/twink a lower toon.....oddly the same as it is now...
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
It means that heirlooms are available to YOU. You level the first toon, get heirlooms...there they were available to you.
How do you level your first toon? You're forced to either not pvp with him, or suffer at the hands of people who can get heirlooms. You're at a disadvantage. That's the whole point. The disadvantage exists, whether you choose to see it or not.
Also...how HOW can people compare going against an heirloom toon to going against a rogue in legkit, head enchant, mongoose?
No one's comparing them, because there are both the product of completely different systems.
Explain to me how...pre xp locking...you could roll a new toon on a new server and twink it well enough to complete with the old twinks? You needed a high level to get twinked then the same as you do now. You could only run a few dungeons before you hit the level you wanted to twink at then you couldn't do anymore pve for gear...you could attempt to make enough cash at low level to buy boe blues and enchants but it would have taken a ridiculously long time...longer than just leveling and using the first toon to fund/twink a lower toon.....oddly the same as it is now...
You had to plan out where you were going to get your gear. You had to plan out your routes so as not to accidentally ding from a discovery. You had to know how to sell things on the AH.
Since you seem so oblivious to what twinking even involves (makes me wonder if you even know what you're talking about to be in a debate about twinks), here's some quick facts:
It usually took about 3-4 weeks to twink a toon at 19.
Deviate Fish sold for 1g+ a piece on every server I played on.
The rare leg armor was generally 50-100g, and the difference between the rare and epic was small enough to not matter until you had enough time to farm the ~500g for the epic one anyways.
Every good twinking guild had enchanters in it, which was one of the main reasons for being in one besides pre-mades.
Post by
Squishalot
If the handle of your saw breaks off, you can still whittle through things with just the blade, it's just less practical than before.
I'm sure many people would pay to watch you try to saw through things with just the blade. It's not just less practical, it's actually impossible to get a sawblade-sized cut in a material by using the blade.
Now, as a practical matter, it's near impossible to twink without heirlooms if you're not exp-capped because you'll be out-leveling gear as fast as you get it.
So explain precisely how that's any different from the way it worked before? PvP rewards only comprised limited amounts of good twinked gear, the rest had to be acquired from dungeons, and you had L15-17 characters being run through instances like Deadmines to get them. What has changed, in your mind?
No, the difference is that many toons cannot compete in low level bgs because of heirlooms which they cannot get (or reasonably get if you insist). It's a low level bg for ^&*!'s sake! Why a chunk of the leveling population should be able to compete in it is beyond me.
Being unable / severely handicapped in getting the best gear is very much a break
You're the only one "comparing work." I don't know why you're filling all your replies to me with it.
"Severely handicapped", "reasonably", etc. That's why I'm comparing work. You're the one whining about how difficult it is to get the gear to be competitive. You know what? It's not
that
difficult
to overcome the gear difference, because there are only three armor (non trinket) slots that 95% of heirloom'ed characters have equipped. An extra 10 damage from a spell due to trinkets isn't going to make or break your PvP experience. Weapons are comparable to dungeon drops.
If you're severely handicapped on a new server, it's because you don't have someone to run you through dungeons to get you the good gear you might have twinked with in the past, not because you don't have heirlooms. Am I levelling a character without heirlooms at the moment? Yes, I've got a druid on an old server that I used to play on (that I have no heirlooms on). Do I twink it as best as I can? Of course, I've made some quick money from inscription, so I buy whatever I can to ease the levelling experience. Do I feel outgunned in a BG? No, I feel about average, because the people in full heirlooms (whom I'm only a little weaker than) are offset by those who run in 5-lvl old quest greens.
Do the people in lvl 24 quest greens have any right to complain about being outgunned at lvl 29? Just like if you get kicked from a 85 dungeon for wearing your ilvl200 epics, you only have yourself to blame. The people running around one-shotting you have worked hard to get that privilege.
To be clear: the fact that it's easier to twink in heirlooms doesn't mean that twinking without heirlooms is broken.
Post by
Sweetscot
I know plenty about how to twink in the old system...had a wonderful lv 39 druid for ages :)
It took alot more work to max that toon that it takes to run heros and get heirlooms, and the strength of the true twink was alot greater than the strength of the heirloom toons...so it all works out.
You can go do dungeons and get blues and enchant them.
You can level a toon to max and do dungeons and get heirlooms
You can go into bg in crap gear and whine that you get smeared on the ground.
Seems like even footing to me.
Post by
nuckingfutz
Do I feel outgunned in a BG? No, I feel about average, because the people in full heirlooms (whom I'm only a little weaker than) are offset by those who run in 5-lvl old quest greens.
I have to agree with this.
I'm also leveling some alts on a different server to my "home" server, and I feel about the same way. I will admit that I didn't fully realize the difference the heirlooms make until I was on the receiving end, but I don't feel that I was doing "badly" per se. (And I'm not complaining - hell, I don't think I have the
right
to complain, as I've been the one wearing heirlooms in bg's on my alts on my home server.) It was a little frustrating getting 1 and 2-shotted by people even lower level than I was, but that doesn't mean that my performance, in and of itself, was somehow made worse.
Post by
MrSCH
This discussion seems to have gone way off topic now, what with all the comparisons to twinking and what not.
My argument has always been twofold;
Why should a level 85 have an advantage at low levels over those who don't have the 85?
Why should the aforementioned 85 be able to run PvE content and then level an alt through PvP with such a large advantage?
Without trying to be provocative, if you don't think Heirlooms are 'op' (and I use the phrase loosely) then you need to actually get back on a toon with no Heirlooms. I have a level 49 Hunter, and I got caught in a HoJ by a 48 Paladin who killed me inside that HoJ.
Sure, I should have had a trinket and perhaps I shouldn't have been caught in melee range but as we know in PvP !@#$ happens, and the penalty for a small mistake shouldn't be instant death due to extremely high damage at this level.
/opinionated rant over.
Post by
Squishalot
Without trying to be provocative, if you don't think Heirlooms are 'op' (and I use the phrase loosely) then you need to actually get back on a toon with no Heirlooms. I have a level 49 Hunter, and I got caught in a HoJ by a 48 Paladin who killed me inside that HoJ.
At no point am I saying that Heirlooms aren't 'OP'. I have a 44 MM Hunter in full L80 heirlooms (i.e. no guild reward ones), and I regularly one-shot or two-shot people in BGs. EOTS - I sit on defense at a tower on the hill, watch as people ride over the bridge and Concussion / Aimed Shot into Arcane Shot before they can get around to hit me.
The key point - can an ordinary toon do it as well? Absolutely. Does it take much to get the gear to do that? No, you just need to be dungeon running or PvP'ing regularly to get decent gear. There'll be peaks and troughs as you may not be able to find upgrades for a level or two, but the difference isn't really that significant. The stats on items between L42 and L44 are minimal. It's not like an xpac transition.
Post by
MrSCH
can an ordinary toon do it as well?
No. They simply can't! As someone who has leveled a character solely by running dungeons and doing BG CTAs (painful as f...) I can assure you Heirlooms > Dungeon gear by a decent margin.
By 'ordinary' I'm assuming you mean one without access to Heirlooms.
Post by
Squishalot
Did you enchant your gear? Did you ensure that your gear was regularly within a couple of levels from where you were? Were you in at least 80% blues?
My initial guess would be that as you were levelling, you wouldn't have bothered enchanting your gear. With a hunter, for example, that's potentially +30 Agility that you were missing out on (i.e. dual Agi enchants on weapons). In terms of direct translation, that's about +5 DPS on your autoshot, ~+65dmg on your Aimed Shot, and associated crit% and dodge%.
As far as weapon comparisons are concerned, let's consider heirlooms vs dungeon drops:
Repurposed Lava Dredger
Two-Hand Mace
67 - 100 Damage Speed 2.90
(29.0 damage per second)
+9 Agility
+14 Stamina
Item Level 1
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 6 (1.06% @ L29).
Equip: Increases your haste rating by 6 (1.49% @ L29).
Loksey's Training Stick
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand Staff
71 - 108 Damage Speed 3.10
(29.0 damage per second)
+14 Agility
+7 Stamina
Durability 100 / 100
Requires Level 29
Item Level 34
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 5 (0.88% @ L29).
Really, the difference is marginal, and it's actually questionable as to which is actually better.
Post by
Murrdurr
You can compare heirlooms with alot of armor you would get at 29,39,49,etc....and they will all be as good as each other. If you dont want to spend the time getting geared the old fashion way of twinking then dont cry about people with heirlooms because the playing field could always be leveled, you just gotta take the time to make it even.
Post by
MrSCH
Squish that comparison wasn't great. Any Hunter will have dual daggers with +15 agi on each if they have the Heirlooms.
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