This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Holy Paladin: Haste VS Crit;Spirit
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
red8981
well... i am saying the tier bonues + crit 5% for holy light.
so I think using holy light and procs will be better than stack haste.
The problem with this theory, and the reason most players don't like to go with it, is that you run the risk of having to rely on a crit or two in tight situations. Haste however doesn't change, so you know how much your heal is going to hit for.
It may also depend on who you're healing. If your job is to raid heal, then you might be safer placing crit over haste (though the extra haste will be nice for HR). However, if you're tank healing, you can't rely on crits. Also, being able to get off your big heals as fast as possible is a must.
Thanks anyways. to argue, i didn't say no haste at all, i am saying reasonable amount. 2sec holy light/divine light won't be much different to 2.2sec holy light. I understand your point.
Like hitting a brick wall..
What you're forgetting is that procs are just that, procs.
You're basing your entire concept of gearing around chance.
Do whatever you want, it's your character and you're the one paying for the game.
the whole talent is on procs.
Like hitting a brick wall..
What you're forgetting is that procs are just that, procs.
You're basing your entire concept of gearing around chance.
Do whatever you want, it's your character and you're the one paying for the game.
just dont expect to get into my raids!
I DON'T NEED YOUR RAID
AFTER ALL, I am ending this thread, STOP reply to this.
I am not going to post anymore unless there is sometime that really interesting.
to summary up, Good luck to all haste paladin, and Good luck to me "hitting brick walls"
c'ya later~
Post by
481692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
776867
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
slasher0161
I like numbers, haste lets me see more numbers faster, can I come to your raid too?
On topic, is it actually possible for someone to be that self obsessed in their own stupidity that they keep arguing a lost cause long after the topic has been slain and put to rest by anyone with half an open mind and a scientific calculator...
... and then I remembered crit > int guy.
Post by
166779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
red8981
I know it's dead and buried, but I can't let this go...
2sec holy light/divine light won't be much different to 2.2sec holy light.
You're suggesting ~10% more healing output is not much different?
Lets nerf all heals by 10% and see how that goes down if 10% isn't much different.
umm, what i found out about my theory of procs/crit healing is this:
20%-25% Crit in raid, then stack haste.
the proc will make up for the 10% more healing
Post by
svirve
So on what math are you basing that statement?
That an extra 0-5% crit is going to increase healing by 10%?
And are you even aware of what proc you're talking about anymore?
The last 10 or so replies you've just been referring to it as "the proc" or "the talent".
Post by
red8981
you can go back up to the first post and read up the proc and talent. there are a few.
basically one gives free holy shock and one decrease holy light/divine light's cast time.
and i had been chain proc quiet alot, but on heavy raid damage fights. Haste play in and crit isnt much help.
Post by
svirve
I know you can, but I was curious as to if you knew which ones there are.
Since you've been referring to "the talent" and "the proc", implying there's only
one
.
Of course they can chain proc, that's why I've been saying for more than a week now that it's CHANCE.
Crit
can
be the best stat ever, if you always crit. But probability shows us that the chances of that happening are astronomically small.
Post by
Flonnette
This is a chronic problem with these "theories". Unless one has math or a log to back up the claim, it really is "just feels like it" instead of a discussion. I did crude calculations back when Cata started and found that Crit was terrible with incomplete numbers with something like 1:4 returns on effective heal where I didn't even bother to consider what it cost in mana to pull it off. EJ has done far more work with far more accuracy to suggest I wasn't far off.
So we have my notebook estimates that suggest Crit is terrible for effective HPS. We have the far more complete and compelling EJ data saying Crit is terrible for effective HPS. We have a gigantic body of data stored in Worldoflogs.com that show "global" average effective healing at levels that seem to suggest Haste is the most practical way to build up to that performance level. But now we have someone that says "Crit feels like it is better" without evidence. You'll forgive us if we are a little skeptical.
Post by
481692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
red8981
as i check back this thread....
Speed of light gives spell haste as well as judgement.
My argument was it is enough haste buff already why we stack more?
But as I research into haste, I came across this: (maybe all of you already known)
Haste not only increase the speed of a cast, but also the number of spells get casted in a certain time.
This is a chronic problem with these "theories". Unless one has math or a log to back up the claim, it really is "just feels like it" instead of a discussion. I did crude calculations back when Cata started and found that Crit was terrible with incomplete numbers with something like 1:4 returns on effective heal where I didn't even bother to consider what it cost in mana to pull it off. EJ has done far more work with far more accuracy to suggest I wasn't far off.
So we have my notebook estimates that suggest Crit is terrible for effective HPS. We have the far more complete and compelling EJ data saying Crit is terrible for effective HPS. We have a gigantic body of data stored in Worldoflogs.com that show "global" average effective healing at levels that seem to suggest Haste is the most practical way to build up to that performance level. But now we have someone that says "Crit feels like it is better" without evidence. You'll forgive us if we are a little skeptical.
I actually understand all that, but I want try it myself I guess.
Theories do not always be the case during fight. Personally healing style will set into this, too.
But after all, I find Haste is more useful in raiding and critical rating is just not as good as haste.
I am realist instead of idealist. I like stuff works in fight, not theories >.>
But in this case, YES, YOU ARE RIGHT AND SO IS EVERYONE ELSE!
Post by
829745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Flonnette
The weakness with Crit, and this goes beyond Healing, is that isn't efficient at all for single cast, single target effects. The way any class leverages Crit is by multi-target or "rapid" skills. For instance Crit is not desirable for Ret Paladins either where one could make the similar argument sound arguments (you'll hit big more often meaning you spend less, kill faster!) but it is still bunk.
Although I have no data or proof, when someone says "Crit is important!" I suspect they misuse Haste. Just because one can push down Divine Light from 3 seconds to 2 seconds doesn't mean you hammer it 33% more often. And in the current raid levels, Healers often don't run out of mana when the fight is going nominally. When the raid gets into trouble, the Healers simply run out of cast time/GCD and can't "push back" against mistakes in the event faster than they are hitting the raid long before mana becomes an issue.
Post by
red8981
HS, DL, FoL, LoH (mana regen), HoS, HR
HS=Holy Shock
DL=Divine Light
FoL=Flash of Light
LoH=Lay on Hands
HoS=what is this?
HR=Holy Radiance
Anyways, I think the main problem you not having enough mana is because you do not use judgement off cd.
The weakness with Crit, and this goes beyond Healing, is that isn't efficient at all for single cast, single target effects. The way any class leverages Crit is by multi-target or "rapid" skills. For instance Crit is not desirable for Ret Paladins either where one could make the similar argument sound arguments (you'll hit big more often meaning you spend less, kill faster!) but it is still bunk.
Although I have no data or proof, when someone says "Crit is important!" I suspect they misuse Haste. Just because one can push down Divine Light from 3 seconds to 2 seconds doesn't mean you hammer it 33% more often. And in the current raid levels, Healers often don't run out of mana when the fight is going nominally. When the raid gets into trouble, the Healers simply run out of cast time/GCD and can't "push back" against mistakes in the event faster than they are hitting the raid long before mana becomes an issue.
That is why I stopped my argument. The reliability of Crit.
Post by
greywolfsage
well, people may think, omg this guy, why cant see just understand haste > crit and just do it.
there is a reason for our tier set being crit heavy and blizzard is not bother fixing it...
so exploring in the field of HOLY paladin
=]
theres a reason. Blizz felt like it.
Theres haste on 2 pieces Enhance shaman tier set, its the weakest of the 3. It doesn't do nearly as much as it used to.
Theres crit on 3 pieces of Ele tier. Crit is Ele specs weakest stat.
You really can't use Tier as a measure for what is "good" for the spec. it just doesn't work that way.
And take it from a Fire Mage, relying on Crits is not the way to play this game.
Yes, theoretically, Crits would save you mana because its fewer spells and mana spent for the same healing done. But its not RELIABLE. Until you can stack crit to laughably high levels like Fire Mages were doing in ICC (read: 80-some-% crit rating) it's simply not a stat to rely upon, ESPECIALLY for healing purposes.
Yes, you have a point in that criticals proc talents. Those more serve as a, congratulations! here's a freebie for your time, as an assist to heals. Like shamans get and Mana Return, an Damage buff (priests do too) and smart heal. Which is handy, but really not something to base the success of the raid upon until you can tip it relatively in your favor. And considering what's happening to Holy spells come patch, they will find some way of preventing that situation from happening again.
TL;DR: Crit can hate you and hate you and hate you, and when you are a paladin healer relying on Crit to love you?
YOU WIPE RAIDS.
Post by
Onijitsu
TL;DR: Crit can hate you and hate you and hate you, and when you are a paladin healer relying on Crit to love you?
YOU WIPE RAIDS.
Love this.
I do enjoy when my spells crit. But dependability is what heals are all about. Spiky heals make for bad heals OR overhealing. Either way, it's a waste.
About the best thing we get from crit, IMHO, is the 3-9% boost to healing from getting up to 3 stacks of
. But I don't stack crit to get that.
Post by
Onijitsu
TL;DR: Crit can hate you and hate you and hate you, and when you are a paladin healer relying on Crit to love you?
YOU WIPE RAIDS.
Love this.
I do enjoy when my spells crit. But dependability is what heals are all about. Spiky heals make for bad heals OR overhealing. Either way, it's a waste. Every once in awhile, the right spell will crit at the right time, and save everyone's bacon... but relying on something unreliable is an obvious fallacy.
About the best thing we get from crit, IMHO, is the 3-9% boost to healing from getting up to 3 stacks of
. But I don't stack crit* to get that.
*Though, I admit I have been playing with putting one point into
, to get a bit more crit-gen... with the end-result being, hopefully, a more dependably buffed increase to heals, than a series of spiky crits.
Post by
581897
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
341987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.