This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Patch 4.1 on PTR (changes will updated as more information is released)
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
hatman555
Patch 4.1 on PTR (changes will updated as more information is released)
General
All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes
Rebuke
Several persistent ground effects now display different visuals for hostile and friendly players. The following spells have the same visual effects for friendly players, but new alternate visuals for hostile players: Ring of Frost,
Consecration
, Desecration, Wild Mushroom, Flare, Ice Trap, Power Word: Barrier, Smoke Bomb, and Hand of Gul'dan. As a general rule, the alternate effects have a
red tint or hue
indicating they are created by an enemy player.
Holy
Holy Light
now costs 30% of base mana, down from 33%.
Flash of Light
now costs 27% of base mana, down from 30%.
(Mastery) now removes the cooldown on your
Word of Glory
.
Word of Glory
now has a 20 sec cooldown.
Aura Mastery
now improves the effect of
Devotion Aura
,
, and
instead of all auras.
now procs from non-periodic spells.
Reinforced Sapphirium Regalia
- Paladin T11 Holy 4P Bonus now Grants 540 Spirit for 6 sec after you cast
Holy Shock
instead of
Radiant
Absorbs for 12% of the amount healed, up from 10%.
Absorb shield now lasts 15 sec, up from 8 sec.
Each point of Mastery increases the absorb amount by an additional 1.5%, up from 1.25%.
Protection
now has a 3 min cooldown, up from 2 min.
Grand Crusader
will now generate a charge of Holy Power if the
Avenger's Shield
it procs is used within 6 seconds.
now also procs from
Avenger's Shield
.
Now lasts 10 sec, down from 15 sec.
Avenger's Shield
can no longer be blocked. (bug fix)
debuff can no longer trigger talents and other effects. (bug fix)
Righteous Fury
now persists through death.
Retribution
Divine Storm
now grants a charge of Holy Power if it hits 4 or more targets.
now cannot occur more than once every 60 sec, up from 30 sec
: Fixed a tooltip error that stated swings at targets with
fully stacked dealt 9% weapon damage. They actually dealt 15% damage and the tooltip has been updated accordingly. (bug fix)
Post by
hatman555
Blue Posts
Word of Glory
The assessment that Word of Glory is meant for more occasional use is rather close to the mark. That's also part of the reason that we're comfortable with employing a cooldown solution in this case. We think that it’s more interesting for Word of Glory to be a reasonably powerful heal that's used infrequently, than if it were a weaker heal used more often. We also like the way Word of Glory interacts with Vengeance because then the heal scales with the content. If you’re taking a lot of damage, the heal is more potent than it would be otherwise.
We also didn’t really think that healing was necessarily a problem for Protection paladins. We just weren't happy with the style of gameplay it was causing players to adopt. We had tanks telling us “I just miss using actual attacks, like Shield of the Righteous. Every time I use SotR it feels like I'm playing wrong.” While technically a tank had a choice between threat and survival, we felt it was an illusion of choice because tanks often (and rightfully) worry about survival first and foremost. You still have the choice between generating threat and healing, but since the healing will be lower overall, the trade off should matter less.
The self-healing ability of other tanks has been brought up in this context. When comparing tanks, we look at the whole package, not individual abilities or talents. Deathknights, for example, are designed with less innate damage mitigation than Protection paladins, but they have a lot of self-healing to compensate. It’s okay, of course, for paladins to have some self-healing (they are a class with healing spells after all), but that has to be balanced against their better built-in damage mitigation. We try to tune tanking classes close enough so that they can all tank effectively, but without making them all function identically.
We're not too concerned with keeping Protection viable in PvP. We know some players enjoy it, but the majority of Prot paladins are more concerned with their ability to tank, and that’s where we spend most of our Protection design effort. It’s a great goal to make all of a class's specs viable in PvP, but it's not always possible to do so and paladins have other options.
I realize that Word of Glory is also on Retribution's platter at the moment, and we have something to share about its role in that spec as well, despite this being the tanking forum.
We think the 4.06 changes overall gave Retribution too great a buff for PvP. We realize that there are those that disagree, but we're pretty firm on that point and we needed to make some adjustments. Given that Ret is primarily a dps spec, we thought it made more sense to reduce their off-healing capacity, which had become quite strong, rather than their damage.
That's not to say that we mind a hybrid dps spec occasionally helping out with healing – that feels cool, and it's appropriate. On the other hand, we want damage focused specs to be primarily focused on dps. It's true that there were other ways we could have reduced Retribution healing. We could have changed Selfless Healer or even Word of Glory itself. As I mentioned earlier, after looking things over, we arrived at the conclusion that having a powerful heal you can use infrequently is more compelling than having a weak heal that you can use more often.
(
2011/03/02 04:17:13 AM
)
We didn't change it because a tank wanted to dps. We changed it because we weren't comfortable with how it felt to tank as Protection.
There's a crucial difference in there somewhere.
(
2011/03/02 05:13:28 AM
)
Actually...
It's kind of a shared Protection/Retribution thread, even though this is the tanking forum. I actually hadn't planned on a separate thread elsewhere on the same topic.
Apologies if I wasn't clear about that!
(
2011/03/02 05:13:28 AM
)
I recently spoke to the devs about this, and their direction on it has not changed. We want Ret to be able to heal. However, if a Ret paladin is healing so often that a 20 second cooldown is a constraint, then that Ret paladin is spending too many GCDs healing. Spending a lot of GCDs on heals isn’t what we want a DPS spec to be doing.
We’d rather it be a big heal that is used infrequently, than a small heal that is only makes a difference to you if you give a lot of your GCDs to it.
(
2011/03/29 07:49:00 PM
)
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
166779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
On the plus side, we won't have to spec Eternal Glory anymore and can use those 2 points elsewhere.
With 4.1 a long way away, and the paladin QQ machine just warming up, I'm sure they will add in a CD refresh to the 0 consumption of Holy power. If they don't then you are 100% right, it will be useless to have that in your spec.
I'm guessing the Walk In The Light change is in addition to, not instead of the 10% healing buff.
Yes, it will be an addition.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Rouen
I fail to see the purpose of the WoG cooldown for non-holy spec'ed paladins. Druids have a reliable self heal, warriors have a reliable self heal (heals for a lot more, but requires a kill or Impending Victory talent), DK's are centered around their self healing, but to add a 20 second CD on ours? It doesn't heal for much (unless it's a crit) and this reduces the value of the
Guarded By The Light
talent.
Edit: After doing some research, the nerf may be the result of some behavior that I've never heard or never seen before, granted I almost never play as Ret. There has been abuse of Zealotry + Selfless Healer + WoG on double DPS teams in Arenas. If this was the prime concern behind the 20 second CD, why not alter Zealotry in some fashion that prevents the HP from being used for WoG during this period or even limit it to 1-2 uses? Perhaps that solution was considered, but couldn't be implemented for technical reasons. It's hard to say.
If you were Ret and you used WoG, it was a large DPS loss and the healing done was less than the potential damage done. To slap a cooldown on it seems counter productive.
The Divine Storm change was long awaited, I never used it because it hit like a wet noodle and never provided HP for me.
Aura Mastery change makes me sad, I'll miss that crazy Crusader Aura run speed.
Reverting the DL and FoL mana costs back to their old values was expected. 7700+ mana for Divine Light was retarded. Priest Greater Heals cost about 5500 (I think) and heal for the same amount. Granted, we are balanced around having Beacon of Light, but a lot of it overheals anyway.
Post by
644897
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
Blue post:
Word of Glory: We want Retribution and Protection paladins to have reasonable healing on themselves or others, but we know paladins sometimes feel like they can’t use their Holy Power on anything but their heals in some situations. We’d rather these two specs spend most of their Holy Power on damage-dealing abilities, with occasional healing.
HERPADERP I THOUGHT THE LITTLE SWORD MEANT I WAS A HEALER, in other words.
Post by
Monday
Ret change to DS is amazing. I think its a really good idea.
I highly enjoy this change.
Very highly enjoy. It gives DS some use again (especially with the damage buff from earlier patches)
Post by
Rouen
If Zealotry was the problem, then fix Zealotry, don't make WoG useless. Agreed, "Cannot use WoG while Zealotry is active" is a much smarter approach. If this makes it live, this'll be the first time a patch has truly made me angry.
I completely forgot to mention the loss of value that Eternal Glory has to Ret and Prot with the WoG change.
Post by
338789
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
616871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
The word of glory change really bugs me because its my main holy dump in 5 mans. I love tanking the new cata heroics. My rotation has pretty much always been CSX3/FillerX2 --> WoG. There is really no reason to use inquisition unless i want to do 15K dps on trash, and there is no reason to us SoTR after the first time because no one keeps up with my threat anyways. With no healing seal up, WoG only averages out to be 2k - 2.5k heals per second. Its enough to make the healers like me, but not enough for me to lead a heroic with 4 dps like we used to do in WoTLK.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ruwuxr5nsurstgbu/sum/healingDone/?s=4643&e=5131
Here is a log of tonight Nefarian 25 man kill. To put it into perspective for you. My roll as a tank is to pick up ony at the start, tank her till she dies before P2 and then after P2 pick up nefarian in P3 and tank him till the fight is over.
As soon as i have a 200K threat lead on Ony i switch from seal of truth to seal of insight, and stop using SoTR, and put all my HP's in WoG. Total healing done 1.7m at 4.5K heals over the whole fight.
Spell Healing done Hits
#
Seal of Insight 511742 35.8 % 164
Word of Glory 473912 33.1 % 32
Guarded by the Light 232547 16.3 % 17
Lay on Hands 158987 11.1 % 1
Holy Radiance 52944 3.7 %
49 WoG 17 of them being overheal for the shield. Is it really so over powered that I can trade potential damage that I do as a tank for more heals?
Taking away this WoG for paladins tanks, leaves us with almost nothing unique about our class.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
atomicwolf22
@Hat
Are you useing the WoG Prot Build?
Also how much Ap do you average from your Vilg. Stacks?
About how much does each WoG currently hit you for?
I'm thinking that the change is not going to nerf WoG that badly myself. I commonly see around a 12k Health with 3 Hp and no extra effects as Ret. With the extra Ap that both spec can build up I'm thinking the heals should double if not triple the heals that we recieve. In theory.
Also for those that theory craft. Will Strenght be the better choice instead of parry for the WoG spec Prot Pallys?
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
@Hat
Ya the build I was using is on my armory. It doesn't have the extra crit for WoG, but it has the 30% cd refresh.
They are not removing WoG. They are only putting a 20s CD on it.
Yes yes, this is true, I think its just hitting me hard because I use it so much. =/
I agree with you on your other ideas, there are better ways to implement a WoG change with out making me use a extra button now when WoG is on CD. My fingers hurt after tanking!
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
720576
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
atomicwolf22
This is almost definitely a nerf to ret pvp. With the selfless healer talent, it is beneficial about 80% of the time for a ret to just off heal rather than use templars verdict, 25k heals on others every 10 seconds plus the damage bonus beat out templars verdict easily. But if the selfless healer talent was removed, it would be much less potent and you would have to choose depending on the situation, which is surely the ideal?
But they could give prots no cd like holy if they didn't feel prot healing was too much... so I guess it was just not what they wanted prots to be doing or a massive over sight that they decided they didn't really care about ;) Perhaps barely using SoR is bad design, although I have to say I use it anyway whenever it will crit, love a big number. ^^
Your doing something wrong if your useing the Selfless Healer Talent.
Selfless Healer
Selfless healer is universally a loss of DPS. The bonus % will partially mitigate the loss, but it can never be used for an overall gain of total DPS. A single TV is worth more total damage than a small boost to other attacks for a short time period.
You lose 3 HP from using the Word of Glory itself. You lose around 1 second to the GCD from Word of Glory. To gain DPS you would need to overcome the loss of the TV in 10-11 seconds. Every best-case scenario attempting to model this has shown a loss and the majority of field conditions would be far below best-case scenario.
If you wish to discuss this and push forward the theory that Selfless Healer is a DPS increase, you must bring hard math to the table to defend your viewpoint.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ Thats from the Ej site. Its not worth it for Ret's to spec into.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.