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Are feral nerfs really that bad?
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Post by
Xiamaru
go to arena junkies(tm) and see what sort of replies you will get if you tried posting those facts on their boards
you know theres more then just arena pvping in this game right? and who cares anyway,blizzard cares little to none about the pvp in this game.so why nerd rage about it
This is pretty much what I tried saying, but it was ignored. Don't depend on him noticing it this time either.
Do they care about PvP? They make a bunch of changes to change PvP, which shrews up classes every time, in PvP
and
PvE half of the time. Whether they care about or not, is up for open discussion I suppose. They make new Seasons, WG and TB, so they do care at least a bit I'd say :P Sometimes, I do wonder if they think through the changes before they put them in effect in the PTR. It may be the test server, but it should still work at least a little bit before they announce these things. And some changes, like this, doesn't really come off as something they have put sufficient consideration into. We can't know the reason for the change, but if it was simply because Ferals were too good at escaping roots, an internal CD on the snare-removal, or even a higher mana cost, would have been sufficient. This would be equal to removing
all
snares from Frost Mages, because they are too good at it.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Xiamaru
You can't fix human stupidity i'm afraid. Just explain it nicely when they yell at you, and if they still don't understand, ignore them
I know this was posted in another thread, but I cant help but see its relivence here and im not talking about Yunaleia
Which is what I'm doing now. If people really wish to ignore what you have to say, without even bothering to read it, they aren't worth wasting time on. I am partly in the same boat, because I didn't realise it earlier when he claimed that those who disagreed are trolls. That statement alone should have been sufficient, but I was too stupid to see it.
Post by
433189
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
Sadly frost mages also have something that roots you and makes you unable to cast. My affliction lock knows all about that.
Post by
132589
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
333805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Xiamaru
before I post my opinion on the changes, I would like to say please stop the flaming back and forth on public forums. trade IM handles and stop filling up useless pages comparing d!ck size.
now, I havent been a druid forever and for the most part I am opposed to the shapeshifting nerf; however I do not think it will be the "end of druids." I've been practicing in BG's different ways to kill a frost mage, whom I believe will be our new mortal enemy in all of this, and I have found when rooted it is a good time to spam cyclone and roots.
It is amazing to me how many mages will use their blink cd when you use roots on them, even though you are frozen fifteen yards away. As soon as nova wears off you can then use your feral charge to catch right up to them and they dont have blink capabilities for 15 more seconds.
There are tons of different ideas besides just that one. I just think that with these changes druids will have to use more of the many utilities blizz hasn't nerfed yet.
Awesome contribution. It magnifies what I've been trying to say so far: It will hurt, and not just a little to our PvP standing, but we will pull through. While it breaks some of our most powerful tools, they aren't taking all of our CC away. We are left in a poor shape, but not in a hopeless one.
Apart from that, the first few lines could have been left out.
This is a forum, flaming back and forth is usually called discussion or in this case heated, but your post really doesnt make the situation any better now does it?
Mainly because of this ^ That post wasn't even close to stopping the flames. It fueled them, if anything. I could have gone more indepth, but I will refrain. It is detrimental to the topic, so we will continue on with the main topic.
Different ways? I can assure you that many or even all other ferals who have played the class a darn site longer than you have taylor316 will have a much better grasp of what a feral can and cant do. You say that frost mages will be our "new" enemy with this change, whereas actually 7/10 with equal gear/skill they already are so your point is moot. When rooted, you want to cast CC? Fine, but you seem to be forgetting some major problems. First, cyclone has a pitiful 20 yard range, which can easily be outranged by a mage whose on the ball. Sure you might catch a bad mage with one, but remember that even if he cant get away in time, he'll just silence you instead. And roots on a mage? Yea they might blink out of it if they want to waste a free stun removal which would be suicide against a good feral or they can stand there and wait for you to get to him before rerooting you again, or stunning, or just frostbolt your face and run away again ... mages have more tools in their own right to have to get away from any melee in game. They are not easy to catch and unless they have a few vital CD's wasted, will beat you almost every time.
Ugh, I dont know why Im bothering to reply. You guys just dont have the experience needed to comment in my honest opinion. You have opinions of those who really dont know the full extent of the changes and the only replies you can come up with are totally hyperbolic and serve as no real arguement to the problem.
Your main assumption is still flawed though. As already mentioned (but like always, you ignored it), PvP isn't limited to Arenas.
Perhaps the main issue most PvP'ers forget, is the fact that everyone who participates, are nothing but humans. You can trick, be tricked, make mistakes, and respond too late. None of these makes you better or worse, but they signifies what we are : Humans. We all make mistakes, and in a PvP fight, mistakes are easy to make, even for the top ranked players. In my opinion, just standing there while rooted, is a mistake in itself. Can you really think of nothing to at least
try
? And as others have said, if you play in a team, why do you assume this mage will have a free shot at you to begin with? Too many things factor in.
PvP isn't about luck. Skill is what makes us react swifter, use the best tools in the right situations, and identify and plan, according to the current enemy. In group situations, this becomes more complex, but the main formula remains the same. However, regardless of how good we are, using the wrong CD can happen. Barkskin when you are certain you will get nuked, to then watch the enemy turn around and kill your teammate instead, can happen. Your enemy can be just as intelligent as you. Predictable players are the easiest targets in PvP, because you always know what they will do next. Apply this to the feral change, and think about it. It will break us to pieces to lose our main CC-escape tools, but we still have tools available. If people expect Ferals to be easy prey after the patch, surprise them. As a former Prot-PvP Paladin, I always saw rogues as lolmeat, but occasionally, someone managed to $%^& me over, and kill me with little effort anyway. Yeah, I'm not a pro to PvP, and yes, it was in Battlegrounds, but it doesn't change much. It only means Ferals will be a hell lot harder to do PvP with.
Let's end it with this conclusion: The change is horribly to ferals, but whether it is game-breaking or not, will not be evident before it hits live. We can't know if it gets changed, if it gets through in its current state, if we get some form of compensation for the losses, or similar.
Post by
Heckler
. . . stuff . . .
So, does the new Thorns avatar mean you're gonna be hanging out in the Druid Forums more?
Coooool...
Edit:
Sometimes I forget that there's an actual human behind these avatars, so perhaps my attitude was a tad harsh. But assuming you
are
going to hang out here, perhaps you could tone down the hyperbole and extremism present in your stances. In this thread alone, one can find multiple instances of hypocrisy and irrationality in your postings. It makes you difficult to talk to without degenerating to similar behavior, which makes an altogether pointless discussion. So here's hoping that my current opinion of you is just the consequence of a poor first impression, and that future discussions will be less... difficult.
Post by
333805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Xiamaru
. . . stuff . . .
So, does the new Thorns avatar mean you're gonna be hanging out in the Druid Forums more?
Coooool...
Edit:
Sometimes I forget that there's an actual human behind these avatars, so perhaps my attitude was a tad harsh. But assuming you
are
going to hang out here, perhaps you could tone down the hyperbole and extremism present in your stances. In this thread alone, one can find multiple instances of hypocrisy and irrationality in your postings. It makes you difficult to talk to without degenerating to similar behavior, which makes an altogether pointless discussion. So here's hoping that my current opinion of you is just the consequence of a poor first impression, and that future discussions will be less... difficult.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll disregard the first line as you said yourself it was a bit harsh, but it actually
is
because I plan on frequenting here. I have put my Holy Paladin on the shelf for now, as the AoE damage stress that is put on groups, while managable, is frustrating while healing. As a druid, it is enjoyable. So my new main is a Druid :P I'll keep the feedback in mind the next time I jump into a discussion.
Xiamaru, while we understand that you might still have fun as someone who Pvp's occasionally and isn't very serious about it, for the people who want to do well in arena this change is the end of feral. If I severely outplay someone, I expect Blizz to have a system set up where I win; not where I "surprise" them by getting them to 50% health.
Since we just got confirmation that it
is
horrible for Ferals, I will agree that we
do seem kind-of
are $%^&ed now. I will, however, hold on to the thin illusion I manage to keep in place, that Blizzard will prevent these changes from hitting live.
I suppose my main confusion stems from the fact that you guys constantly refer to PvP as Arena, as if Battlegrounds and TB doesn't even exist. The Paladin Forum tend to refer to PvP as PvP, and Arena as Arena. I asked several times, but was never commented on it, but from what I gather, Arena is the only real type of PvP you deem as "real" PvP. It was a wrong assumption, and for that I am sorry.
But. Assuming that I, and everyone else who also disagree that the change wont ruin the class completely, are trolling, (and even without giving any reason as to
why
this assumption was made, and even goes out-of-the-way to ignore and misread whole replies) because we hold on to the belief that the change wont break the spec completely, is the only reason I got pissed at Yuna. That kind of disrespectful behavior is intolerable, and that was the reason the discussion got as heated as it did. Now I know who I'm dealing with, so I will make certain it doesn't happen again.
Post by
132589
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Post by
255496
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Post by
ljudsnubbe
Id just want to add this:
Lately feral pvp has been
fun
. Not because ferals have been OP in any way, at least I dont think so, but we (at last) have been competitive.
Shifting out if root, occational fear-immunity, glyphed Entangling root, increased runspeed, natures grasp etc, it just seemedto me we finally got the pvp-tools we have been lacking for so long. Id rather lower our damage-output then remove all our utility.
I have issues with not agreeing with this post. Duelling my Warlock friend caused lots of displeased smileys, and my mage friend didn't appreciate it either. I might be seeing this as OP, because I
feels
extremely powerful, when I get hit by several snares, and 3 seconds later, I'm in his face, eating him, or watching the poor Warlock attempt to fear my zerking beast, watching him go down seconds later, unable to counter me in any real way.
I don't understand how you believe we have lacked pvp-tools for a long time. Snare-removal have always been there, move speed, fear immunity, natures grasp have too - that isnt new additions to our class. About the damage output... again, ask PvE'ers if they agree with you on that one. They wont. Blizzard need barriers between PvE and PvP, but their reason for not creating them, is because they dont want us to "learn 2 different classes". The idea behind the statement is good - Imagine the confusing it would create, if half of our spells had 1 effect in PvE, but another in PvP. Sadly, the result from this way of thinking causes imbalances across the board, both in PvE and PvP, because they can't tweak one thing in either aspect of the game, without throwing off the balance on the other.
Im happy you agree, but feeling powerful and being overpowered is to different things.
Sure, Berserks fear-immunity is a powerful thing, but its on a pretty long cooldown. Half of what pvp is all about is to monitor your opponents CDs, force them to blow their defencive CDs, then attack when they are vulnerable. If berserk deserves to be removed (and I think its not), why not remove Tree of life as well? Its also a powerfull ability on a long cooldown.
I pve as well, and sure I dont want my damage to be lowered there, but there must be a way to lower our damage in pvp while leaving pve untouched. Increase the damage-reduction Resilience provides against bleed-effects? Bah, I dont know, but there must be a nice way to do it.
And I do know we have had many of these tools for a long time, but we havent had all of it. Im talking fairly new abilitys/mechanics like Stampade (improved feral charge), Skullbash, Instant glyphed roots etc. I just feel lately we have come to pair with other classes.
I cant begin to describe how much fun i think glyphed entangling roots is, it has really been a gamechanger for me, even as a feral.
Post by
Xiamaru
Id just want to add this:
Lately feral pvp has been
fun
. Not because ferals have been OP in any way, at least I dont think so, but we (at last) have been competitive.
Shifting out if root, occational fear-immunity, glyphed Entangling root, increased runspeed, natures grasp etc, it just seemedto me we finally got the pvp-tools we have been lacking for so long. Id rather lower our damage-output then remove all our utility.
I have issues with not agreeing with this post. Duelling my Warlock friend caused lots of displeased smileys, and my mage friend didn't appreciate it either. I might be seeing this as OP, because I
feels
extremely powerful, when I get hit by several snares, and 3 seconds later, I'm in his face, eating him, or watching the poor Warlock attempt to fear my zerking beast, watching him go down seconds later, unable to counter me in any real way.
I don't understand how you believe we have lacked pvp-tools for a long time. Snare-removal have always been there, move speed, fear immunity, natures grasp have too - that isnt new additions to our class. About the damage output... again, ask PvE'ers if they agree with you on that one. They wont. Blizzard need barriers between PvE and PvP, but their reason for not creating them, is because they dont want us to "learn 2 different classes". The idea behind the statement is good - Imagine the confusing it would create, if half of our spells had 1 effect in PvE, but another in PvP. Sadly, the result from this way of thinking causes imbalances across the board, both in PvE and PvP, because they can't tweak one thing in either aspect of the game, without throwing off the balance on the other.
Im happy you agree, but feeling powerful and being overpowered is to different things.
Sure, Berserks fear-immunity is a powerful thing, but its on a pretty long cooldown. Half of what pvp is all about is to monitor your opponents CDs, force them to blow their defencive CDs, then attack when they are vulnerable. If berserk deserves to be removed (and I think its not), why not remove Tree of life as well? Its also a powerfull ability on a long cooldown.
I pve as well, and sure I dont want my damage to be lowered there, but there must be a way to lower our damage in pvp while leaving pve untouched. Increase the damage-reduction Resilience provides against bleed-effects? Bah, I dont know, but there must be a nice way to do it.
And I do know we have had many of these tools for a long time, but we havent had all of it. Im talking fairly new abilitys/mechanics like Stampade (improved feral charge), Skullbash, Instant glyphed roots etc. I just feel lately we have come to pair with other classes.
I cant begin to describe how much fun i think glyphed entangling roots is, it has really been a gamechanger for me, even as a feral.
Wow, don't go there! Blizzard finding good ways to balance PvE and PvP according to each other? not in a lifetime :P Blizzard fail time and again when balancing either aspect, because it always prove to have a too large impact on the other. And the few times they actually manage to make a change that
doesn't
harm the other aspect too badly, the change is insane (Like the root removal, and also the Zerking nerf to a slight degree - fear in dungeons is best avoided if possibly, but it isn't a tool that was specifically needed)
About powerful =/= Overpowered, I believe you may be right. Wouldn't Overpowered be considered "Too powerful compared to the others"? I suppose my idea of it got a bit mixed :P Or I'm trying to delude myself as to why Blizzard felt this nerf was deserved. The last one seems to be the most likely one :/
The Tree of Life change felt like a PvP nerf to me. I don't find it that much different in PvE, other than having a powerful CD to pop. I believe the ToL change was to prevent Resto's from jumping around, continueally shifting in and out of bear/tree form, to get the most mitigation, and best healing. Good Resto's were nigh-immortal pre-patch 4.0. You needed a hell lot of burst to bring them down, even if they didn't have any real way of countering the opponents attacks. After the change, Resto Druids doesn't feel that powerful anymore, even if that is also mainly due to the healing changes that Cataclysm have brought.
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
/popcorn ^_^
Post by
Xiamaru
Because I had no clue where else this would be appropriate to post, I'll place it here. It isn't about the subject itself, but the discussions/flame-wars it ignite. (This applies to a bunch of other treads present on the Druid board at the moment)
The question you are asking is basically: "Is this nerf the end of Ferals in Arenas" <- in this, your judgement of the nerf is 100 % correct - it
is
the end of Ferals,
in its current form
. I'll state it again, and hope some of you actually catches on this time: PvP isn't only Arena. But claps for the logic that people who don't do arena = people who don't PvP. This is the issue that pops up when people discuss it, because some people who do mighty well in battlegrounds disagree, and you believe they disagree because they are noobs/trolls. The same issue is painfully present in the "Shifting Druids" topic. People shoot at each other, but continue to miss the point, because we aren't certain what we are talking about. The heated discussion between me and Yuna were basically a misunderstanding, because I wouldn't have disagreed at all, had I known he only refered to Arenas. People are better at shooting each other, than they are at explaining why the issue exists. I'm not trying to blow up a discussion with this text block - I'm stating why the discussions become the flame-wars they do.
@Foley: By your own logic, if you say you don't even PvP, and can't stand it, why are
you
still here? :P
Post by
109094
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Post by
LookOut
@Foley: By your own logic, if you say you don't even PvP, and can't stand it, why are
you
still here? :P
He likes bashing tards ^_^
its not just arenas, its also rated BG.
^this is spot on. Ofc the non-rated BGs are part of PvP, but that's HARDLY comparable (or as parra puts it, competitive). You can get carried through those. And BG chat is HORRENDOUS at times.
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