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Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
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Post by
TheMediator
Right, full PvE gear is utterly terrible in the arena, but that isn't the point. The point is that to be the best equipped PvPer, you have to do more than follow the PvP progression, which doesn't exactly seem that right, since the way things are setup you are under the expectation that the PvP progression will give you the best PvP gear just like raiding gives you the best raid gear.
What about professions? It's arguable that certain professions are a must-have for PvP -- and you need to do PvE to get those professions. So, should those just not be allowed, since you have to do PvE content to get them?
You have to level up to PvP as well.... but when we're talking about the divide between PvP and PvE, we're talking about arenas and other PvP content and raids. Professions fall about in line with having to get enchants, gems, etc, where you don't raid or PvP to get them.
Post by
camy009
I think people posting are missing why PvE gear is OP in PvP.
They are not full PvE gear... I repeat not FULL PvE gear.
PvE gear isn't OP in PvP. Yes, it has more DPS stats, but that's exactly why people use it -- they want the DPS stats. They could just as easily max out their Resilience by using PvP trinkets (using the medallion instead of a racking AP buff trinket, for example).
I understand what you are trying to say: trading defense for offense. On paper it makes sense. First, there are stats that are unobtainable in PvP gear: haste, ArP, and soon mastery. These stats are often better then just crit. Not to mention, these stats have become almost staple. Majority of warriors use ArP and mage use haste.
Secondly, classes don't require a lot of defense. Do people not remember Hpallys using 4 piece T8 and still could survive easily. Warriors used to run with 600-700 resilience in S7. Prot warriors ran with 44 resilience in S7. These are not just 1500 gimp players, these examples were also gladiators and best in the world players.
Post by
Synectics
First, there are stats that are unobtainable in PvP gear: haste, ArP, and soon mastery. These stats are often better then just crit. Not to mention, these stats have become almost staple. Majority of warriors use ArP and mage use haste.
Armor Penetration won't be attainable on gear at all, from my understanding.
Regardless, the problem doesn't lie in the fact that PvP players are using PvE gear. The problem lies in exactly what you said: those stats are just better than Resilience.
And every time Resilience gets buffed to make it more valuable, everyone QQ's that "resilience ruins PvP!"
I think the solution lies in somehow making Resilience a desirable stat. Right now, you are often better off stacking DPS stats to compensate for a player's Resilience, and the Resilience isn't enough to compensate for that sort of damage.
Tuning Resilience to simply exist on PvP gear, without being a part of the itemization budget, could be an answer. This could leave those DPS stats on the gear, and therefore allow for different itemizations between classes, specs, and playstyles, while still making sure that the gear is "PvP."
To compensate for that, perhaps tune Resilience to lower damage on NPCs (outside of player pets, obviously). A silly solution, perhaps, but it'd get the job done.
EDIT: To clarify on that "solution." This would basically make PvP gear very defined as "PvP gear." It would have little purpose in PvE -- in fact, it would be horrible to use. Likewise, not having Resilience on your PvE gear (assuming Resilience got tuned up to a useful amount) would mean that in PvP, you would get completely rocked and rolled by other players. Again, a silly workaround, but kinda effective in theory.
Post by
335609
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
Because that's not complicated enough for me. ;3
Post by
TheMediator
Why not just lower the cost in terms of item budget of resilience while still keeping the DPS stats on PvP gear below those of PvE items? (@Synectics post)
What they need to do is just have legendaries have some things that are specifically only against monsters... legendaries should have DPS on par with the best PvP gear in PvP, but have some sort of damage bonus against monsters to make them worthwhile to still get for raiders. Warglaives had something similar to that, but it still wasn't really enough IMO since the warglaives were still better than equivalent PvP weapons.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
VeniVidiVici
It's annoying that certain PvE items (weapons like Shadowmourne, trinkets) are BiS or at least very strong in PvP because pure PvP players will not have access to them. Of course, you can tell them to go particpate in PvE stuff, but some players play simply for the PvP aspect of the game. They shouldn't be punished for it.
Post by
TheMediator
in a negative manner for the PvE geared player
Shadowmourne vs the next best thing.
Negative? How full of it are you?
exactly, players who are capable of tricking themselves into believing that a few itemlevels between them and their opponent was the cause of their PvP ineptitude have larger issues than "OMGAH I DON HAS ORNGE!"
this isn't a discussion about the effects of pve gear in pvp, this is an outlet for griefers who need to rage about their item envy
Goshad sorry if it wasnt clear before but we're talking really about PvE trinkets and above all weapons. It was made quite clear earlier that we arent really talking as much about gloves, chest, bracers etc. but weapons. BiS for most specs and comps include a wrathful weapon and for many a battlemasters- and for any non human, the medallion
Except that in a straight up brawl, having a higher itemlevel weapon does make a difference if the teams are fairly evenly skilled. Whether you can outskill a better geared player is irrelevant, because those players still have an advantage that you have to overcome.
The skill gap is only so big, and eventually when players start reaching the top issues like class comp and gear become more important, so it forces players who normally could have been able to progress almost solely through PvP to go raid to stay competitive, and often it turns players away from the game over time.
Post by
Synectics
but some players play simply for the PvP aspect of the game. They shouldn't be punished for it.
They aren't punished for it. They simply aren't rewarded. Just as no PvE player will have certain mounts unless they PvP. Clearly, those mounts may not be as hard to attain as, say, a legendary weapon, but the point still remains. If you tunnel vision into one aspect of the game, you aren't going to experience everything.
The skill gap is only so big, and eventually when players start reaching the top issues like class comp and gear become more important
Exactly. Which means the best-of-the-best WILL jump through those hoops for that TINY little advantage. Again, I'll put professions in the same boat. If you wish to be the best, you're going to have to get certain professions leveled to min-max yourself. You need the best gems, the best enchants... the list goes on.
And eventually, when you're even with someone else, it could come down to one item being better. And bet your ass that the best player will get that one item. And they will definitely have a right to be the best for it.
The fact that it comes from a PvE raid is really irrelevant. It's better, which means no matter where it comes from, the best players will get it if it REALLY does make that much of a difference... which I think is still debatable.
Post by
TheMediator
but some players play simply for the PvP aspect of the game. They shouldn't be punished for it.
They aren't punished for it. They simply aren't rewarded. Just as no PvE player will have certain mounts unless they PvP. Clearly, those mounts may not be as hard to attain as, say, a legendary weapon, but the point still remains. If you tunnel vision into one aspect of the game, you aren't going to experience everything.
The skill gap is only so big, and eventually when players start reaching the top issues like class comp and gear become more important
Exactly. Which means the best-of-the-best WILL jump through those hoops for that TINY little advantage. Again, I'll put professions in the same boat. If you wish to be the best, you're going to have to get certain professions leveled to min-max yourself. You need the best gems, the best enchants... the list goes on.
And eventually, when you're even with someone else, it could come down to one item being better. And bet your ass that the best player will get that one item. And they will definitely have a right to be the best for it.
The fact that it comes from a PvE raid is really irrelevant. It's better, which means no matter where it comes from, the best players will get it if it REALLY does make that much of a difference... which I think is still debatable.
Will =/= Should. And you can try to say professions are the same, but they aren't. Professions can be done at any time by a single person, raids require you to have 24 other people and you have to win the roll for the item, which also puts more LUCK into the equation of arena, which I doubt blizzard intends (or maybe they do?).
Also, are you really saying the "best" player is not the player who uses his cooldowns and abilities wisely, but the player who spends most time in the game? This is why arena is having such difficulty being accepted by truly competitive communities, because of backwards logic like that.
May the fattest man win?
Post by
Synectics
And you can try to say professions are the same, but they aren't.
They are. They have absolutely nothing to do with PvP. A world-class player, who can outplay anyone, still wouldn't be "maxed out" if they didn't have professions. Yes, they are far easier to obtain than a legendary weapon, but they still do not come from PvP at all. It takes effort outside of defeating other players -- and gives an edge in doing so.
Also, are you really saying the "best" player is not the player who uses his cooldowns and abilities wisely, but the player who spends most time in the game? This is why arena is having such difficulty being accepted by truly competitive communities, because of backwards logic like that.
No. I'm saying that once you eliminate the variable of skill, it comes down to gear. And the best-of-the-best players will get the best-of-the-best gear. And if Shadowmourne is truly the best weapon, then the truly hardcore will be hardcore, and they'll get it.
Of course skill will always trump gear in importance. Always has, always will. But it seems to me we're talking about one item that is marginally better, and my point is that any player who wants to be as maximized as possible will get it. If they're hardcore enough to get it, I don't see what the problem is in using it.
Just as if the best weapon in the game came from PvP. You wouldn't "need" to have it for PvE. But the best-of-the-best players, who REALLY want that extra 1%, will get it -- no matter how much time they have to invest, or how difficult it is. And my point is that if they're really willing to etch out that extra 1%, I don't see why anyone should be able to say, "That's not fair! They put in all that time and effort and got rewarded for it!" :P
Post by
704301
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Azazel
I think they should just make PVP gear completely ineffective in PVE, and vise versa. Here are some reasons why:
-It would drive a wedge in between the community and completely seperate everyone, and I'm all for segregation
-PvP-geared rogues can't gank me while I'm farming because their weapons glance harmlessly off my PVE-infused armor
-The people in my guild that spend all their time in arenas/BGs will be ineffective in raids and therefore not be invited and steal my loot
-I'll get to taste the delicious tears of PvPers as they cry about not getting as much new content as I do
I bet you don't know how to PvP ^^
Post by
704301
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
I don't think you get what I'm saying at all. Blizzard shouldn't have something that you need to spend a, keyword here because obviously you think that professions are the same thing as poop socking, *ridiculous* amount of time for such a benefit in the game. I don't blame people for getting themselves an advantage, I blame blizzard for having something stupid like that in the game.
Post by
Azazel
I think they should just make PVP gear completely ineffective in PVE, and vise versa. Here are some reasons why:
-It would drive a wedge in between the community and completely seperate everyone, and I'm all for segregation
-PvP-geared rogues can't gank me while I'm farming because their weapons glance harmlessly off my PVE-infused armor
-The people in my guild that spend all their time in arenas/BGs will be ineffective in raids and therefore not be invited and steal my loot
-I'll get to taste the delicious tears of PvPers as they cry about not getting as much new content as I do
I bet you don't know how to PvP ^^
Not as well as I know how to PVE, but I'm picking sides here.
Segregation kinda ruins the idea of an MMO don't you think? PvP-geared rogues gank you while farming? Roll a PvE server. The people in your guild spend all their time in arenas/BGs and still get invited to raids? Get another guild. Tears? They can just use dual-spec.
Post by
704301
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
704301
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
I don't think you get what I'm saying at all. Blizzard shouldn't have something that you need to spend a, keyword here because obviously you think that professions are the same thing as poop socking, *ridiculous* amount of time for such a benefit in the game. I don't blame people for getting themselves an advantage, I blame blizzard for having something stupid like that in the game.
So you want everything in the game to be easy to get so everyone's rewarded for doing nothing?
Easy to get? If easy to get means you don't have to raid, yeah, I guess I want the best PvP rewards to be "easy to get". What's the problem with that?
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