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No chance for me to kill LK?
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Post by
fuhrerschein
your little "analogy" is really bad
there are plenty of good drivers outside of F1, but how many F1 quality drivers outside of F1?
thats what i thought
Post by
apvalceanu
1. Regarding RL - when sometimes required to work 24-30 hours straight, you will see why this is not a "card" but actually a genuine reason for me. Also i would never turn down a basketball evening or going out with friends to sit my ass down in front of my PC and play. I have done this a while back in vanilla and lived to regret it. Weather you / anyone believes this or not is of no relevance to me nor will it change the truth in any way. Actually i think the only relevant thing for anyone is what he/she wants to get out of the game.
2. There is no apparent reason to believe that you are.So then you basically think -"a player is bad unless proven otherwise"? Because personally i do not start with any preconceived ideas - i just wait for at least first impressions. Also i would rather trust that someone is a good player if i knew he had a history of raiding, even if a while back, over someone who has gear to show-off or achievements like the example at no. 3. (presuming ofc that i start by asking myself "what reason is there to think someone is good" as you suggested). AND you never answered my question "So what of all this contradicts the idea that i am at least a decent player?". Your answer was contradicting this, but without actually relating to it in any way or any argument whatsoever. The reason why i asked this is because storyr implied that icc achievements were related to "a good player". Your answer did not relate to either what storyr said or to my answer, and while others might take it as a given, i would like some kind of argument. I would never say "Aestu is an awful healer because there i no reason to believe he is good" - i could just as well say "i believe the Earth is flat just because there is no reason to believe it is round" (ok - a bit extreme)
3. I never wanted to "boast" about my raid-leading days. All i wanted to say is that in my opinion someone like me has pretty much a larger experience than a relatively new player who may have been taken through ICC (i have seen posts in wowhead stating that someone went to ICC as dps with no idea about anything there) and that ICC achievements should not be the sole criteria of judging a good/bad player - as you yourself said "players can zone into a LFD random or some ICC pug, suck, get their welfare epics, and leave, and come back to suck next time". That was all. If my post sounded like boasting it was not intended - besides the fact i don't like to do that, what is the point of "showing-off" what you did such a long time ago?
4. LastTrivial content means nothing. Calling someone a "Captain Karazhan" in TBC was a stock insult and it had basis in reality - two-bit mediocre players who puffed their chests out because they led nine other mediocre players through the first tier of content.........Even in TBC, heroics and entry-level raids such as Karazhan and Gruul/Mag had really interesting and difficult mechanics that couldn't ever simply be ignored. Players had to communicate and learn to play in order to get anything done, and human nature being what it is, they rose to the challenge. There isn't that sort of impetus in WotLKI honestly do not get what you are trying to say. In first part is sounds to me like you are saying "stop boasting because Kara is not really important when talking about raid experience; every second idiot could do it"(not sure if you meant to be so "aggressive" but that is how it came out). In second part you say "Karazhan and Gruul/Mag had really interesting and difficult mechanics that couldn't ever simply be ignored". Well which is it?
P.S. While reading a lot of other of your posts about tanks Aestu, i would say i cover about 80% (maybe 90 if i would try harder) of the points you suggest are key to being "
the great tank
". I would be inclined to think that while that is not great - it is sill pretty good. I still feel silly though about "having to prove" this here, instead of just playing my role in-game as a decent tank. Why do some people (including you) turn some posts here in a sort of challenge for others to either prove they are good
here, in writing
or to stop saying "i am not bad at what i do"? Why so judgemental?
Post by
494341
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
517094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apvalceanu
your little "analogy" is really bad.there are plenty of good drivers outside of F1, but how many F1 quality drivers outside of F1?thats what i thoughtAre you joking? this all started from WOW IS REALLY HARD BTW LOL and you are comparing this to want-to-be elitists in wow? There is such a huge gap from "wow is not hard" to "i'm one of the best players" that if you do not see this, i really do not expect you to understand the analogy. I'm not sure what you meant by "i thought so" but i suggest you keep at it (thinking that is) because you took something out of context, derailed it and slammed it into the wall wanting to prove something that no one contested in the first place.
No one ever said being a top-geared elitist was easy ("F1 quality drivers" suggests elitist material), and while there is no argument that being one also implies at least some experience, if not player quality, it is not needed to be one in order to be a good player (imo). "If A then B" does NOT also mean "If B then A". (if we accept that) "if you want to be a high-end raider you need to be good" is NOT the same as "if you want to be good you need to be a high-end raider". The 2 may partially overlap, but thats about it.
THIS was what the analogy was about!
If you still don't get it - go
here
.
All that was said, and i agree to it, is that this game is not hard. it was not about ICC or any other particular end-connected thing, it as just about the game. If wow would be "hard" i'm certain half or more of the subscribers would quit it. Also i agree that there are parts of it - especially some achievements - that are challenging - again no argument there.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apvalceanu
Agreed 100% Aesu - what you said is what i understood when i read "WOW IS REALLY HARD BTW LOL". Also as you yourself stated - there are tons of players now who are "not that good" (trying hard to avoid saying - here it comes anyway - BAD players) who have indeed been and finished ICC. I'm thinking that you (Aestu) find wow easy, do you not? I mean you are an experienced player, you know hat you are doing etc. so i would presume for you WoW is easy (in general - again aside from certain "achievements" that are MEANT to be a challenge). Therefore i also presume that someone who is not hard-headed and and puts some time and effort in the game would, overall, find it easy.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
fuhrerschein
"If A then B" does NOT also mean "If B then A". (if we accept that) "if you want to be a high-end raider you need to be good" is NOT the same as "if you want to be good you need to be a high-end raider". The 2 may partially overlap, but thats about it.
in this particular case, it does mean that if B then A
you cant be a good (PVE) player without being a high-end raider
now read this carefully cuz i dont want people to get butthurt: just cuz you're not a high-end raider does not mean you're a BAD player, maybe its that you havent reached your full potential due to extenuating circumstances like the good ole' IRL excuse or working 30 hours nonstop (i lol'd)
aetsu is completely right about WoW not being a court of law, you cant just say youre good (even if you have skill) without high-end raiding experience
and expect people to believe you
Post by
354743
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Post by
494341
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apvalceanu
**takes a very deep breath**- here goes nothing:
Working at a hospital and being on duty means: from 7:30 am today till 7:30 am tomorrow it is my responsibility to check every emergency related to my specialty. There have been such days in which out of the 24 hours i managed to sit / lay down for 30 minutes; now if this happens to be any day except Friday or Saturday, this means the next day is a working day and at 8 am normal working day starts. If i am lucky i will be able to leave work in 4-6 hours... that sums it to, yes 28-30 hours. I have a colleague who every month goes to England / London and stays in the hospital for 2 weeks straight. He does not leave the hospital and looks after all patients in a certain wing. He got there by official means - so it is all very much legal. NOW you can lol all you want if you still find this funny.
I do not bring up RL to find excuses for not getting somewhere in the game. My ladder of values does not prioritize WoW over other things - examples i have given. I do not need anyone to agree or accept my values, but that does not make them any less valid then anyone else's. Therefor, considering the time i have left for the game, i have sat my expectancy accordingly. I am very happy with where i am now. I am not a high-end raider, but atm i do not wish to be one, so there is no actual need to find excuses for not being one. TBH atm i would like to have a kid with my wife (waiting for her to give in :P)
NB - i never said "i have a life" nor did i ever wish for my post to sound that way. This is an expression that i attribute to people who for one reason or another envy or look down on players. I do not. I enjoy playing this game and at any time that i have nothing better to do i play it. This being said, my priorities are different, but i am just fine if anyone here has wow as a priority... It's your business. I do not look don on you nor will i appreciate you more - it is simply your decision.
Past that, how does "time" even matter? In WotLK, Blizzard made a point of introducing both PvE and PvP achievements that disregard time commitment and correlate only with skill.Have you ever considered that from my point of view there is a point after which wow is simply not worth the hassle? It is not about proving my skill to anyone, it is not the constant need to improve my gear, and it is definitely not about me rising to someone else's expectations. I play it for fun and actually the moment i start getting angry over something i just stop... from my point of view if i get angry it means the fun stopped, thus the whole point of playing is now obsolete. So i just either play something else or turn off my PC.
And how does your "life" hold you back from doing so?It is not RL that stops me - it is just that once i have achieved my expectations (true that these in turn have been indirectly determined by the time i have) in game i do not feel the need to go further. The game's last raid is just not as important for me as it is for you.
It is human nature to judge. Everyone judges, and this is neither bad nor undesirable. Judging is how we distinguish values and worth. To fail to judge, or to disdain the importance of making good judgements, is the very definition of being the fool - one who cannot tell value from worthlessness, good from bad, lies from truth. And it is so in WoW as well.I agree, but its a long way from judging someone and having preconceived ideas about anyone.I don't see why you have this idea that you or anyone else "deserves" a chance. No one does. In WoW as in life, one must give others a reason to give you a "chance". There's a word for the belief one is owed something by the world. It's called entitlement"entitlement - right granted by law or contract" - it is not "the belief" it is a fact, a "right". Presuming that i agree with you, which i definitely do not, i would like to give you an example. But first - in life everyone STARTS with the same chance - how much you fight to make something out of it is up to you. And if you live in a society where people do not even grant a chance to someone, i feel sorry for you. I find that to be a very sad place to live indeed.
**Let us suppose i am a fresh 80 and have worked for gear enough to come to ICC (by whoever's standards you want), but have never been there yet. By what bases can you judge me (we were just talking about "it is the human nature to judge..." 2 paragraphs ago) if i am worthy to join a raid or not if you will not give me the chance to prove myself? To prove i can do my part and do it well. Because i doubt that you are saying hat any new 80 should not be allowed in ICC raids. Dilemma? **
Debates with you are interesting :P even if i often find myself at the other end of the argument.
Post by
apvalceanu
@ fuhrerschein - i am presuming no one here is narrow-minded so maybe i need to explain further
How would you describe someone who, for example, is tanking heroics and is very good at it? Because this is what i would call a "good player". What you described, for me, would fall under "very good player" or even, if pushed further, "one of the top players on the server".
Maybe it all started from semantics, and therefor this should clarify it. But if you honestly consider, and i hope this is not the case, that someone cannot be good at playing (his class, his role) WoW simply because he does not do ICC, then
you are not even worth my time
. I have seen to many people claiming they alone hold "the truth", but the fact is neither you nor me, or anyone else can claim that, and thinking otherwise is ignorance or stupidity.
Post by
fuhrerschein
@ apvalceanu
i guess i should have clarified and/or read your post better, were not really in that much of a disagreement, im just merely pointing out, along the lines of the first few posts of this thread, that a lot of it is based on perception
meaning, said player you talked about who is good at tanking heroics might be pretty good in icc right? but lets say he has never done raids, which i think is what you're implying, people will (and should) view him as an unattractive candidate for the raid
similar to the whole GS argument, obviously gear isnt everything, but its a lot quicker to look at gear than to quiz a player thoroughly on their class/spec, obviously raid experience isnt everything, but if someone just says "oh dude im awesome at tanking heroics" they'll probably be looked at as a scrub
idk if im making myself clear, but if you want my opinion i agree with aetsu 99.9 percent of the time so just read his posts, they are more well-written than mine lol
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
fuhrerschein
Ok, you're content with mediocrity. That's not necessarily a problem, just don't make excuses or say you're "rly gud but haev a lief".
lmao aetsu i like you no homo
if i re sub im gonna come join your guild k?
Post by
494341
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apvalceanu
@ fuhrerschein - yes guess we / i just misunderstood. agree pretty much to everything in your last post.
@ Aestu - also agree pretty much to all. Ofc i would never expect to be taken to HM icc 25, first thing is fist normal 10 icc... or even ToC if really needed. Better to gather some experience beforehand; will look good on raid application :P I don't see why you have this idea that you or anyone else "deserves" a chanceWell the following is what i understand by saying "giving someone a chance" (it was not to presume someone is good out front):I'd make the decision based on many factors.
How you communicate.
How polished your gear is (apart from mere item level or having superficially correct gems and enchants).
General experience.
How I see you walking around in the game world.
How committed you seem to be.
On that note - i actually might need the advice on "good polished gear". Might ask you for it if i'll raid again. Also i really hate it when someone leaves a group after 1 wipe (ofc sometimes it is obvious by only that 1 wipe there is no hope to group - this excluded) and personally i choose not to leave for any reason until run is over, or unless group disbands regardless of me. This is exactly why, not being able to predict precisely how long the run takes, i prefer not to commit to it unless i am certain i have the time. I'm thinking this is what you mean by "How committed you seem to be"? Basically if i'm in it, i'm in for the whole run, taking the wipes if needed until raid leader decides to put a stop to it.
Sure from your perspective you might say "i am content with mediocrity"... the again from my perspective -
up to
where i decided to go with the game, i am good at playing it. That is not to say overall i am an outstanding player - i'm not, for some reasons you stated yourself, but i would rather be good up to a point, then be a mediocre player that raids ICC. Maybe things will be different in the future, but for now - as you said, to be a good player you have to work for it, to do research, to constantly try to see if there is something you can improve.(completely agree) That takes raiding for me just a bit over the line of what what i find worth it... for now. Sometimes i do miss raiding... who knows, if certain things settle down i might go for it again in Cata.
Post by
fuhrerschein
. Sometimes i do miss raiding... who knows, if certain things settle down i might go for it again in Cata.
you can come with me and raid with aetsu! :)
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