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TANKS! Slow the Hell Down!
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Post by
obiwaynekenobi
What I said, that's being taken out of context, was something to the effect of saying it's nice having a Fury Warrior, Retpally or DK DPS who can take a hit or two from a mob in the event something escapes me (for that second as I mouseover their nameplate in Grid and right-click to use Righteous Defense - especially given how Fury Warriors and Frost DKs can easily pull aggro off of even a geared tank, this is more common than one may think. I've had undergeared Frost DKs come very close to grabbing aggro from me due to no fault of their own; it's also the reason my own DK goes as Unholy now, and even badly geared Fury Warriors can output tons of threat) or comes from behind the group due to someone being careless and tries to eat the healer. Mostly the latter case as I've seen it happen a few times as a tank when somebody gets careless or is a little too close to a mob, or worse the dreaded "tab target" (aka the Hunter Curse).
Somehow that got turned into "I like having someone who can OT for me" when what I really meant is it's good to have somebody capable of intercepting a mob about to kill the healer or a clothie in the (rare) event something like that is needed. It's not that I need an OT in a 5-man, but IMO having the resource there is a good thing if it's ever needed (and it can come in handy for doing certain achievements such as "Respect Your Elders"). Be prepared, and all that. A good tank would make a note of all resources at his disposal in case he ever needs to use them, correct? Of course I don't go into a dungeon saying "I really wish I had a DK here to OT those guys", but in the event somebody gets knocked/feared into a pat and that pat decides they want to eat that nice Druid healing me, while I'm already engaged in beating on a mob or, if I get careless, already running ahead of the group to pull the next mob (because we chain pull heroics now), having a Fury Warrior or Retpally that can draw those mobs temporarily as I turn around and go back to pull them off is a good thing to have, and to be honest I would point to being able to consider that as an option that might have a use the hallmark of a good, aware tank and not of a poor one.
Ironically the entire reason I said that is because I've seen it happen when going as DPS (on my DK). The tank is chain pulling and moving forward, and forgets/doesn't care about a pat or tries to circumvent a mob to "speed things up". Somebody ends up pulling that pat because they're running to keep up with the tank (typically out of fear of being votekicked or talked down to) and ends up getting killed, at which point the tank usually starts hurling insults.
I recall one heroic Halls of Stone (again, on my DK where I was going solely as a MDPS) where we wiped
twice
on the second pack of trash (the three groups that walk around that circular room) because the tank couldn't be bothered to pull the pack and instead used those engineering speed boots to rush past them and pull the pack in the next room without anyone else there, and while we were running to join him the pat came from behind and aggroed one of the DPS (not my DK, I believe it was a Mage who tried to Blink around them). The tank went ballistic and the group quickly disbanded. Speaking as a tank myself I would consider this a shortcoming of the tank
because
he wanted to skip as much as possible that he didn't consider the fact a moving pat might aggro someone in a rush to catch up to him.
My Warrior is another story entirely as at his level (now 43) it's often that plate DPS will pull ahead of me entirely because they know that having a true "tank" class doesn't matter at this level. At lower levels it was worse. I did quite a few Deadmines and SFK runs where a Warlock would send his Felguard to tank mobs (I'm guessing because I wasn't chain-pulling entire rooms as I was trying to gauge my abilities on the Warrior, due to never playing one before), or a Hunter's tiger would be successfully tanking mobs.
Post by
Bawkxy
Look, whats with the amount of arguing/qq going on in this thread.
I used to do my daily heroics with my guild, like daily. Ever since we've gotten decent enough gear, 251-ish, we'd be rushing through the heroics with 4dps+1heal, never wiped once (did come close a few times tho)
anyway, @OP, lol qq moar.
Post by
444854
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Tya1
Personally...I think this sums it up quite nicely...
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
I'm fairly certain if a dungeon needs an OT, then it's a fail on Blizzard's part. The whole basis for 5 mans is 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS. This should be doable with any of the classes and specs, and you shouldn't be required to take a Mage and Rogue for CC, or a Ret/Fury/DPS DK for OT, or another class that can spot heal for another healer. That's what Blizzard is trying to get
away
from.
Seeing as how every 5 man is made with that in mind, you're doing it wrong if you use any form of an OT. You shouldn't ever need one.
Post by
341987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apvalceanu
I'm fairly certain if a dungeon needs an OT, then it's a fail on Blizzard's part. The whole basis for 5 mans is 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS. This should be doable with any of the classes and specs, and you shouldn't be required to take a Mage and Rogue for CC, or a Ret/Fury/DPS DK for OT, or another class that can spot heal for another healer. That's what Blizzard is trying to get
away
from.I'm supposing you're either relatively new to wow or have not done heroics in TBC, where, to give best example, in H Shattered Halls you would sometimes even not get invited as dps if the group didn't have a second CC-er. For the heroics in LK i agree, there was no need for OT or CC, but i saw several posts that mentioned the CC was welcome in PoS and HoR at a certain point. As for what Blizzard intends for the future, i am yet not sure; but unless you know something i do not, i cannot understand where you know from the exact way in which they designed Cata heroics or where will wow go from there on.
As for Aestu your last post is laughable. Now if i write PERIOD here does his make my statement "stronger"? You were just given an example by OWK where he as dps actually helped a tank (be it a bad one) with OTing. I agree that with a good tank and
especially
one that has experience and does not blindly rush, there is no need for OT; but i have seen my fair share of bad tank where i would have to use MD or other forms of controlling mobs just to give the tank a chance to get aggro back. Leaving this aside - after OWK said "a good tank should make note of what resources he has..." (more or less there) for you to answer the way you did... really? Remembering an older post of yours - it's like a general neglecting his archers entirely just because he finds the battle can be won without them. It's not a question if there is need or not for OT, because OWK did not say he needs one, it is a question of knowing your advantages in a group, and personally i find that to be something a good player thinks of. Even i it is not needed on heroics.
Edit:
Personally...I think this sums it up quite nicely...
The person who wrote this has earned my respect. Even though most of the time i find myself in the overgeared group - i could not argee more with this post.
Post by
alexarose
Aestu, you are starting to sound more and more like goshadstep2lose; elitist, arrogant, and pretty much -
this
.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
Basically, what apvalceanu said. I never once said that I needed a plate DPS class to OT for me in a heroic (and if I did, it was either misquoted or I wrote the thought incorrectly as that tends to happen sometimes). I said that I take "inventory" per se in a group to see what resources I have at my disposal
in the event
that something unforseen happens.
I would argue, again, that this is the hallmark of a good player (and of a good tank) in being able to do a quick mental exercise and know that if somebody is running to the group and aggros a mob along the way, that
if
the tank isn't able to pick that mob up immediately there's no danger of a wipe because that DK can draw aggro and kite the mobs over so it doesn't eat the Mage.
I recognize my flaws as a player and as a tank; I'm not ashamed to admit that I've wiped in WOTLK heroics even with my ICC gear due to miscommunication or sometimes even simple bad luck via the RNG. I've learned from those mistakes every time and taken steps to make sure they don't happen again.
Seeing as the last page or two has degenerated into an argument of good tanks versus bad, I'll state again my views on the initial point of this thread: IMO a good tank pulls at a pace appropriate for himself and the rest of the group. A poor tank rushes ahead blindly and expects everybody else to step in line and follow; a poor tank pulls very slowly even if he knows he can pull faster. An
inexperienced
tank pulls slowly at first to gauge their abilities, and then pulls faster as their confidence (and confidence in their healer and DPS) rises. My personal rule of thumb is, given how WOTLK heroic mobs tend to be spread out I'll grab a group, when it's almost dead go off and grab another one (so the dying mobs follow me and die as I pull the next batch). I don't get complaints with this method, as I'm going fast enough to make the heroic quick without charging in and risking a wipe due to an overinflated ego.
There are some exceptions: In Gundrak I'll behave more like Aestu and pull each room at once, with the exception being the Gorlocs in Eck's cave because they drop aggro when they leap at someone, and the three Rhino groups before Gal'darah because of their silences. In Utgarde Pinnacle I play it more conservatively and I'll pull a group (say in that first outside walkway, where there are the Vrykul and the occasional Abom) and continue on to the next as the first group is dying. Conversely, in Forge of Souls and Pit of Saron I pull each group individually and deal with them as such, largely due to the fact they're spread out a good deal apart or are still deadly (e.g. hill after Krick+Ick). The point I wanted to make with those illustrations is that I weigh the pull and dungeon before deciding how best to proceed; it's not a question of "I'm in 264 gear so I can chain pull everything", or even "The healer is geared so he can keep me alive", it's a matter of a quick mental exercise of "Can I pull 2-3 groups in this room efficiently? Can the healer keep up? Can the DPS keep up?" and it
varies from dungeon to dungeon
.
On my Warrior, I've had the healer repeatedly say "big pulls plz" in lowbie dungeons (Uldaman, specifically), presumably because they were in a hurry. I largely ignored him because I'm still learning how to tank as a Warrior and I'm not comfortable pulling entire rooms (I pulled roughly 2 groups at once, and he wanted me to pull like 4), but I did start to make larger pulls as we got to the end of the dungeon and I started to see he could keep up with more mobs.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apvalceanu
If you would read what i said again you would see i was referring to CC in TBC, not OT. As for CC - at least on my server, half of the heroics or more in TBC were using CC. I as hunter was asked numerous times to help with CCing mobs. And this part of my answer addressed this in particular:
This should be doable with any of the classes and specs, and you shouldn't be required to take a Mage and Rogue for CC
, or a Ret/Fury/DPS DK for OT, or another class that can spot heal for another healer
## there were quite a few times i can remember where i went as kitty, and when the tank died, i swapped into bear and rushed to grab aggro so maybe we could still win the fight, and it sometimes worked - this is NOT referring to WotLK, but was prior to it; given this - i have seen numerous times where a tank either thinks to much of himself or overestimates the healer and pulls to much for the group to survive. It is not common in these late times when most are overgeared, but these situations are the ones where an OT could make the difference. Again - if tank and/or healer is good i have to agree with you - there is no need for OT or CC in any WotLK heroic ##
As for the other part - it was also prudent to win a battle with the least possible losses, and archers (in my example) if properly used could help reduce the number of casualties considerably. In early times they even offered a morale advantage, as did in later times grenades (when they first appeared and looked more like small cannonballs).
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
211100
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
44284
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Post by
LookOut
Aestu's gotta be a dude. He's a tank, and he's good at the game. Girls aren't tanks, girls aren't good at this game, and there certainly aren't any girls who are good tanks.
Yup, definitely a dude.
A bit late, but I have to disagree on this one. My fellow druid guildy tank is a girl, and very good at what she does. Hell, she does the twilight realm on the Halion fight better than me! (/shame)
Such girls are rare though ^_^
Post by
Bawkxy
Aestu, you are starting to sound more and more like goshadstep2lose; elitist, arrogant, and pretty much -
this
.
Starting to?
I thought it was the other way round...
Post by
HoleofArt
Flaming Aestu in every thread he posts in makes you look like tools. Seriously. You're like his own groupies. Where ever he posts, you all post in as well. You know who you are. Just stop. Contribute to the thread or move on.
there were quite a few times i can remember where i went as kitty, and when the tank died, i swapped into bear and rushed to grab aggro...
This
should
be doable with any of the classes and specs, and you shouldn't be required to take (insert whatever)
I meant you aren't required to. Also, that isn't an OT.
I'm supposing you're either relatively new to wow or have not done heroics in TBC, where, to give best example, in H Shattered Halls you would sometimes even not get invited as dps if the group didn't have a second CC-er.
That's what Blizzard is trying to get
away
from.
Hurr "bring the player not the class".
Post by
apvalceanu
True that is not an OT - it was more of a situation where it helped to be able to take the heat for a few seconds. This more then an actual OT is what i feel OWK meant, but i might be wrong.
Hurr "bring the player not the class".
I agree, this should be the case. On the other hand if i recall correctly i was on my lock and the group going to H SH needed 1 more dps - they turned me down saying "we only have 1 CC in group now and a lock's / succubus' Seduction is not dependable enough; sry but we need a second good CC-er." As a general note, in
most
of the groups i have been with in H SH back in TBC, there were 2 CC-ers, and in at least half of the rest of heroics at least 1. But this is only my experience. I'm just saying what has happened before, and hopefully will not be the case in future.
On the other hand i head rumors that Blizz intended for Cata heroics to be harder then LK ones + now almost if not all dps classes have CC in 1 way or the other. I'm supposing one can easily see why
"bring the player not the class"
is not as related to CC mechanics anymore. Maybe there will never be a need for CC anymore in heroics, i do not know, but in any case, Blizz made it so no matter what you play as dps you will not be turned down for it. (or at least is trying to achieve that)
Lastly i have to agree with you - people should not flame Aestu,
or any other person who posts here
for that matter; It so happens that i generally agree with Aestu in about 80% of what he says. It is only when reading certain post of his and getting this feeling of "what i say is the final truth and all who disagree are wrong" that i stop agreeing with him, even if he is right in fact. Aesu was the one who said (more or less) "do not blame others, but try to learn to play your class better". And up to a point i agree completely. But sometimes he implies that circumstances do not matter, and there is only 1 thing to blame.
@ Aestu - i honestly respect and agree to a lot of things you said. Also i find it stupid / idiotic the way i see some people bombard you with ABSOLUTELY no logical arguments whatsoever. This being said (and because i do consider you a smart person) I have to tell you that sometimes your posts go along the lines of disregarding any other point of view that differs from yours and / or answering in a negative way to only part of a paragraph, while almost neglecting the rest. And i feel that even if you do not agree with them, the fact that you dismiss the possibility of them being true is just as stubborn as the people you criticize when saying "you refuse to see the problem in you, and only blame others".
What i'm trying to get to is showing that there is no person who holds
THE TRUTH
, be it Aestu, me, or anyone else. I'm not pro or against Aestu or anyone else and i welcome a lot of ideas different from mine (even if i do not always agree), but that is up to the point where someone says "i am right. period." meaning you either agree or you are not worth any interest. The only one who can say this is someone who is omniscient, and i strongly believe there is no person who fits that description.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
I've already said what I meant was a class that can divert a mob's attention for a second or two, and not an actual OT as defined in a raid environment;
mea culpa
for using the same terminology, I suppose. I find it comes in handy, ironically, when the tank is rushing through the dungeon
because
mobs are skipped and there's a chance (slim, but still a chance) that somebody will accidentally aggro those mobs while the tank is continuing in the dungeon. Again, I've personally seen it happen on my DK although the tank reacted poorly (cussing everyone else out for pulling the mob, calling us all noobs, and ragequitting the group).
Also, to be fair the only reason it seems I take minor shots at Aestu is because he does the same thing and 99% of the time has to toss in a thinly veiled insult to the other person's skill at the game, while also subtly hinting his own superiority. I actually do find that I agree with a lot of what he says, it's the WAY he says it that makes me hate him because it comes off as very condescending, if not downright insulting.
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