This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
The The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm Discussion Thread (Spoilers Abound)
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Adamsm
Nah, I've found the battle scenes to be pretty seamless.
But yeah, the romance plot kinda stood out, but I don't think that was her fault. Look at what she had to work with.
Metzen
: So we want to introduce a new character for Thrall to fall in love with.
Golden
: Sounds kinda cliche'd and unnecessary, don't you think?
Metzen
: Well, we need Thrall to grow as a character. Settle down and have some kids, y'know?
Golden
: I'll do what I can...
Now, it may have gone down like that, and it may not have. But if she was told to make a new character for Thrall to get involved with, her hands would be rather tied about how to go about it.
Better then "Fight fight fight fight fight fight...oh wait, kiss" she dropped the ball a little....alright, a lot.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Ok now. My copy came 4 days ago, and I've read though to the end tonight. This is my take on it.
- First, I'll get out of the way Anduins role in this. I admired Anduin greatly in this novel, it showed real development in him, in him finally beginning to find a path for his own, in that he wants to help people, not cause war but heal when he can. Unlike his father, he thought he was soft, I admired Anduins effort in his hopes for peace.
now, the rest.
- I read though, and on Garrosh, I have to say, my take on him has not grown in the slightest. And I'll tell you for why. Through Goldens story, we see the story come out from the perspective of character thoughout, from Thralls, Cairnes, Baines, Jainas, Anduins, they felt central to the story, and so made them very human in there own telling. Garrosh however.. look though the story, and you will find, there is only one short part of the story we see from his perspective, and all I read in it, was the perspective of someone only caring for his own honor, his own self, and my resentment for him grew because of it.
- Cairne. My take on Cairne grew so much in the shattering. I thought a lot of him in wow, and loved him in warcraft 3. This novel was kind of cruel in a way. It showed that Cairne really was the heart of Thralls horde, the horde I loved. He wanted to defend it, and what it meant, and as a result, he died for that belief. It was as almost symbolic as Thrall removing his armor, with Cairnes death, and Thrall sheding his skin as warchief, it really did feel like the end of the horde I knew and loved.
- Anduin. I really have grown to like Anduin in this. Its like, I still resent Varian and don't see anything I like in him, well his son, I like how he's developing out. He resents the concepts of war, only knowing he might have to face war when theres no choice. But him developing into his own person and not just in the shadow of his father gives some hope of him turning out alright.
- Baine. I was amazed, The first real time he got to develop as a character, and seeing when he was faced with a choice, he could not trust the orcs when he knew Garrosh killed his father, the forsaken and blood elves were to far from where they were, and the trolls were to few. The only person he could trust was Jaina. the line saying 'its is better to trust an honorable enemy then a dishonorable friend', really spoke the kind of wisdom his father would show.
and lastly, of course.
- Thrall.
Thrall is the reason why I love the horde so much. Its funny, cause in truth, if I hadn't read Goldens novel first on him, I might not have know about him the way I did. And as a result, the horde I knew a loved came from him and what he made it into.
Since I knew of what was coming, I questioned it, kept asking questions, kept looking for answers, cause without Thrall leading the horde, it quite simply wasn't the horde I loved. and I saw this, in this novel. From what faith I had in the orcs before kind of got broken in this book. When Garrosh killed cairne, the orcs that cheered him, that really hit hard, that the moment Thrall was gone, it was like they forgot all he taught them, and they would sooner see the heart of the horde be empaled, and follow Garrosh, then standing against it.
Thrall's development into a shaman, I realised, was something he had to do. It was funny, cause we saw he actully already developed himself in his life's lessons, the elements speaking to him though those moments from his past, it would have explanned why he was able to find that commune with the elements the way he did. It simply wasn't until now, that he truely discovered it in full.
Also, his meeting with Aggra, and what came from that, I will admit this. I do love Thrall, but its ok, cause it shows Thrall mature on another level, and that he can still love in that regard. So I didn't make a big thing of it.
As I said earlier, him removing his armor of Doomhammer, as like sheding his skin, to become this full on version of his new self, was him also sheding his mantle, and that chapter of the horde closing.
I still want to have faith that he will come back to the horde, and he will lead and guide it. I'm just not sure now in what capacity. Skree was right, given all that happened, I just don't know if the hordes ever gonna be the same as it was before.
This whole thing with the elemental lords, deathwing, and the balance of azeorth is something only Thrall now can fight against. Well he matured, its like he matured beyond the petty and childish conflicts of the horde and alliance, and as so, makes if he ever will return just.. unknown now.
Really, I gotta hand it to christie golden. He has a way of making to love and hate many characters. She also really knocked on the head, I think what I believed in the horde, what I once use to shout loud about them being different, she made me accept its changed now, and I'm just gonna have to accept that fact.
so yeah. heads kinda spinning right now. Thrall said to the goblin at ratchet, he isn't the warchief.. at least not for some time now. Thats like the one peice of hope I have to hold onto.
Post by
Skreeran
Heh, I told you to withhold judgment until you read the book... :P Looks like you enjoyed it.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Heh, I told you to withhold judgment until you read the book... :P Looks like you enjoyed it.
I was a powerful read. I will say, like I said. my take on Garrosh hasn't shifted, and infact it just made my resentment of him all the more. Infact, its not just Garrosh now, just a great portion of the horde, the orcs, that I use to defend so much, it just feels like in that one moment, I couldn't feel the same way about them like I use to.
Its times like this I wish there was a neutral faction in wow so badly. So I could still play wow, and wait and see if anything good comes of it without, you know, being part of 'his' horde.
I will say, Thunderbluffs gonna my my hearthstone in cataclysm. I admire Baine a lot, and from Orgrimmar feeling like the city I'd make home, it doesn't feel that way anymore reading this, if you get what I mean.
Post by
Skreeran
Eh, I've considered switching to Alliance for Cataclysm, but that doesn't feel fair to my Horde characters.
Instead, I've decided to channel my feelings for Garrosh's changes directly into my characters. Nakresh and Kitanga are going to be appalled and concerned for the future of the Horde, just like I was/am, and like Metzen said, they're going to fight to steer the Horde back on course.
Even if 90% of the orcs in the Horde want to try being bloodthirsty and brutal again, my orcs will keep fighting. I'm not going to make them give up and just go play Alliance or quit altogether.
Edit: No prob, Lob. ;)
Post by
taurenmoo812
Eh, I've considered switching to Alliance for Cataclysm, but that doesn't feel fair to my Horde characters.
Instead, I've decided to channel my feelings for Garrosh's changes directly into my characters. Nakresh and Kitanga are going to be appalled and concerned for the future of the Horde, just like I was/am, and like Metzen said, they're going to fight to steer the Horde back on course.
Even if 90% of the orcs in the Horde want to try being bloodthirsty and brutal again, my orcs will keep fighting. I'm not going to make them give up and just go play Alliance or quit altogether.
Edit: No prob, Lob. ;)
I'm not sure completely, or anyone else does for that matter, what Metzen meant when he said that. I mean before I read the book it seemed like he, the big man himself, was implying Thralls place in the story, and what it could mean to come... but after reading it, it just felt so... final, like I say, like that chapter of the horde closing for good
Post by
286545
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Golden is. And the Armour is off to Orgrimmar to be placed in a safe place till such a time as it's needed again.
Post by
Morec0
Eh, I've considered switching to Alliance for Cataclysm, but that doesn't feel fair to my Horde characters.
Instead, I've decided to channel my feelings for Garrosh's changes directly into my characters. Nakresh and Kitanga are going to be appalled and concerned for the future of the Horde, just like I was/am, and like Metzen said, they're going to fight to steer the Horde back on course.
Even if 90% of the orcs in the Horde want to try being bloodthirsty and brutal again, my orcs will keep fighting. I'm not going to make them give up and just go play Alliance or quit altogether.
I see Thragg's views being similar. He can see the Horde heading down a dark path again, but he also knows that he is simply too old to be able to do anything about it directly. The most he can do is teach the younglings of the Horde about honor and all the qualities that the Horde needs to maintain peace in the world, and pray that they will be able to do something about it.
On a related note; after reading all of this I feel that I'm gona have to buy Shattering and read it for myself.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Its something intresting to consider.
At this stage, the cold war has ended. The horde and alliance are now with warmongering leaders, regardless of there belief, they want to go to war with the other side. These characters (Garrosh and Varian) don't care about all the years others of there faction worked to secure peace.
You then have Thrall and Jaina, and Anduin, wanting this. The sad part atm is, Thrall is not watching out for the horde at this moment. Jaina and Anduin are trying to do there best in the worst situations.
So see, there has to be figures that represent the best of both factions, and figures that represent the worst.
Post by
taurenmoo812
On a side note, I told my guild mates when the horde becomes Garrosh's horde, I won't defend or form defense raids for orgrimmar anymore, and where before yelling 'For the Horde' meant something.. yeah, not now.
I wish I could get an idea of what Metzen said. Remember, he said 'if you love the horde now..', but what horde did he mean? It got interprated as This current horde before Garrosh's one, but do we even know.
Post by
Skreeran
Alright, lemme get a transcript of Metzen's speech there:
We needed to construct a character--well, Alex had already constructed Garrosh for Outland--and then geniously... kind of... used him to be kind of a counterpoint to Thrall. So what you sense outta this guy just being generally a meathead and hyperviolent and a hothead and all that stuff... y'know the intention is to kind of counter that against the Thrall we know, and if we're gonna put Thrall through the steps, we have to have... like a foil, if you will? So trust me when I say, it's all gonna play out, there's really good stuff comin'. Try not to get fixated on Garrosh, right? He plays a pivotal role and I think he's a really interesting character by himself... uh... if many of you have been playing the Cataclysm beta, like you'll begin to see: there's other shades of this guy; he's not as one dimensional as he seems. 'Cause when everybody gets moving on the websites and everybody's on message boards, going "This guy's a one-note wonder...", right... On message boards if we're not talking about a lot, like everyone just assumes that that must be true, but it is not. So... There's really good stuff... I am so overanswering this question... So... Be patient. This is gonna play out... uh... I dunno, I think it's gonna be some of the most spectacular story-work we've done in WoW, like ever. And it's gonna count, and it's gonna have soul... So for all the darkness, Horde, don't lose hope! What I would tell you is: If you love the Horde today, how much more will you love it when you need to fight for it? Right? You're gonna dig it.
Important points of note:
They constructed Garrosh into what he is today solely for the purpose of developing Thrall. Don't get fixated on Garrosh. It's not about him in the end.
Notice how he said "So for all the darkness, Horde, don't lose hope!"
So don't lose hope, even if it looks like the Horde is never gonna come back from under Garrosh's influence. The orcs may love Garrosh and his ideas today, but it seems clear to me that they're setting up a kind of prodigal son type thing to bring the orcs back to Thrall's ways. There will probably be some kind of humbling event, like the one at the end of the Second War, where they become less confident in pure brutality and more open to the teachings of people like Drek'thar, Saurfang and Thrall.
If you love the Horde today, how much more will you love it when you need to fight for it?
What this means is that there is a metaphorical battle taking place for the Horde's soul, with Garrosh and Thrall at the heads of each "side." Thrall has, for the meantime, ascended beyond the Horde's inner conflict because the whole world needs him even more as a Shaman. That doesn't mean that Garrosh's ways of brutality and conquest will win forever and ever. The battle's still going, and while in Warcraft 3 we were only able to watch and wait and see what happened, now our characters will get to directly participate in the moral fight through quests and world events. And that's part of what Metzen means with there being spectacular storytelling, with the player getting to directly participate in the Horde's inner battle, rather than just watch it.
And that's why I'm not going to quit or switch to Alliance. Kitanga and Nakresh are going to fight for honor and integrity in the Horde, no matter how uphill the battle seems to get. They're willing to fight for the Horde's soul, and in the end, when we've succeeded in turning the Horde around and making them see the value of compassion and peace, we'll know that we participated in the fight, and that we helped the Horde weather it's worst storm. At that will be a great feeling to see our efforts succeeding.
This is mostly speculation of course, but again, Metzen makes two things clear:
Don't get fixated on Garrosh.
Don't lose hope.
So even if you completely disregard my speculation, don't do either of those things at least.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Hmm yeah.
At the moment, things have reached like the eye of the storm. The horde, after years of brutal conflicts, and finally getting to develop beyond their bloody path of war, actully began to turn into something more then that, under Thrall.
As Garrosh becomes warchief, you can see it, the larger majority of the horde changes face back to the old ways, seeing his warlike following as the sweeter deal.
Now what we have is a horde that doesn't have anything to work towards anything other then a warlike faction. With cairne dead and Thrall gone, many orcs now embrasing Garrosh's warlike ways, unlike the alliance who have characters like Jaina and Anduin as an example of those who still believe in peace, the horde kind of lost two of its greatest sons. Sure theres Baine, who you can see wanting peace after he made friends with anduin, but he is just the leader of the tauren now, the main bulk of the horde is lead now by war.
I'm hoping and always looking for an answer to this. I loved the horde because of what Thrall made it into, it actully had a human quality to it I admired right up until now. With Garrosh's extention, it loses that, like said, losing its soul. I just hope, as Metzen said, that Thrall is developing into something more then what he was, and that will mean more of how the hordes destiny is shaped.
I just always hope to find answers to this questions racking my brain lately.
Edit: I just had to mention this, as ironic as it is. I just this morning got sent my premium action figure series Warchief Thrall. I've got him now sat on my deck, and he looks incredible, lol. Its ironic, given I waited months for this figure to be released, and yet now I have it, all I can think of is.. he isn't wearing this armor anymore.. strange fate.
Post by
GVHB
I have been thinking. Where the hell is Rehgar Earthfury? He was one of Thrall advisor on the comics but he is nowhere to be found in-game, is there any mention of him in The Shattering?
Post by
Skreeran
I have been thinking. Where the hell is Rehgar Earthfury? He was one of Thrall advisor on the comics but he is nowhere to be found in-game, is there any mention of him in The Shattering?Nope, probably because his status as Thrall's advisor was a total ass pull and shouldn't have been done.
Seriously, who goes to meet with Varian Wrynn alongside Captain Violence von Ragepants and Varian's former slavemaster?
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I liked the first 7 issues or whatever of the comics. At least until Lullabi left.
Post by
286545
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Actually Vol'jin doesn't want war either. So that is two horde race leaders.
True. though the path of the horde and alliance comes with the defacto leader of there faction. The reason in the 'cold war' state was because of Thrall, and the alliance not have a defacto leader back then. Varian appears and the alliance are first to become aggressive. Garrosh takes the horde, and the horde slip back into there old ways.
Though you have ones like Baine, Vol'jin, Jaina, Anduin, Velen and maybe Malfurion who want peace, with the main leaders at war, anything they say overrides there want.
Its actully a poor state for the horde infact, like I say, because Thrall was leader, and he wanted peace one day, so his example gave the horde a chance. It really doesn't matter whoever else wanted it, see even with those leaders of the alliance wanting it, if Varian ways 'WAR', the alliance go to war.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.