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4.0 For Prots: What No One Expected, A Massive Buff
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Post by
Domoaligato
Finaly some single target threat for Palas i was getting tired of pulling agro off them with Icy touch even after they had 3 or 4 attacks.
Assuming:
1.) You're talking about end-game Raid bosses
2.) You're not in (the old) frost presence...
You must be running with some pretty bad Prots...
I am going to have to agree with evonath on this one.
Before 4.01 my "Warrior" guild raid tank with equal gear had to tell me to slow down because I was out threating him after boss stack/taunts.
Backing down to white hits was not enough.
14Ktps from a prot pally prepatch was easy to perform with 969.
I have never had a dps pull off me in a raid unless they did not wait as instructed.
Post by
Varaconn
If a tank cannot hold aggro it is not a gear problem barring a MASSIVE margin of difference that seldom applies with
T9
T10
being farmable.
Fixed to emphasize the even smaller gap now.
Again.... they farm it in 5-mans. They're going to have to start SOME where.
Very true, however, I would say this: who cares if they pull threat off of you? I know it sounds like I'm saying "it's just the DF, you can be a jerk," but I'm not. Look at it this way. If you're undergeared, high DPS without restraint will inevitably pull off you, of course. If DPS pull off you, and you're visibly undergeared (and probably said as such) one of two things will happen. Either they'll say "no problem I'll be more careful so as not to give you trouble," or "lol nub l2p."
In case one, things will probably go better, and you continue on your farming. In case two, you laugh and shrug it off -- this is the DF after all. If the guy's being that much of a prick, you should feel no guilt in letting him deal with his ego (ie pulling and dying.)
I wasn't as much saying, "You should be in T10 as it's farmable," (Though that may have been Aestu's intent, in which case it wasn't the best choice to quote him, it was merely there for convenience). I was trying to say "Well, if you have a big gear gap, you won't for long. T10 is around the corner."
Also, I would argue that "just starting" would be considered a Massive gear difference, though I can't say I necessarily agree with the rest of the sentiment.
Post by
Domoaligato
We were arguing Aestu's point where he said you
could
get aggro back off of an overzealous DPS without a problem if you "weren't bad."
I am saying you shouldn't loose aggro at all ever as long as the dps are not a bunch of idiots.
If they are idiots and do not wait then tell them "welcome back to the queue" and leave group.
adding: let them die. they will learn faster.
Post by
144586
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Post by
Varaconn
adding: let them die. they will learn faster.
Yeah, that usually works. I have done it. I will let them pull, then stand back and watch. When the culprit goes down, I'll save everyone else. So they lose even more time when the healer has to rez them, and if they have to rez a pet, and getting their buffs back, health back up, etc... waiting for the tank to pull properly would have saved them that time. Not to mention the repair bill creeping up on them.
Especially now that everyone pays our repair bills. Muhahaha.
Post by
581897
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Post by
Elorivan
Yep. That self-heal is massive global threat.
Can I get something to confirm/deny this?
As a side note, spending 2 points for "global threat" feels like speccing for trash to me.
Post by
Magician22773
No, a good tank can still compensate for DPS with no restraint. The threshold to do so is merely higher now.
If a prot paladin cannot hold aggro in a fiveman, for any reason, under any condition, regardless of DPS behavior, it is because the prot paladin is bad. Pure and simple. The tools to hold aggro are on the spellbar. It is merely a question of the player being able to use them properly. And that is the difference between good tanks and bad tanks.
Aestu,
First to hopefully avoid provoking a defensive flame war between us, let me say, I am not one of the many "Aestu" bashers on this forum, you can check my post history and see that we often, if not usually have similar opinions on most subjects. With that said:
I completely disagree with you on this one, in a couple ways.
1. As mentioned, at this point of the expansion there can be huge differences in gear between the tanks and the DPS. A freshly dinged tank running heroics to farm JP's, can easily be overwhelmed by a 6k+GS DPS running his daily random, if that DPS doesn't control his aggro. Even with all a tanks talents, their threat is only so much, and can be jumped in this case.
2. Even without a huge gear difference, the current mechanics of the game do still allow a DPS to jump threat on a tank, especially if they "try" to. While their intentions may or may not be to intentionally pull threat, trying to bust the DPS meter will often get the same results.
3. Even with no gear difference, or even a reversed situation, with the tank outgearing the DPS, if the DPS grabs aggro first, or even at the same time as the tank, and continues to nuke away paying no attention to their threat, the tank can and likely will be jumped by the DPS.
Granted numbers 2 and 3 are not the tanks fault, but rather the DPS's fault, and number 1 is really not anyone's fault, its just a product of gear difference at this point in the game. But the issue that I disagree with you on, is that you implied that a "good" tank should be able to "hold aggro in a fiveman, for any reason, under any condition, regardless of DPS behavior". While not a gamblin' man, I would be willing to bet that I can pull threat off you, or any other tank, of any class with my warlock or my druid. And doing so would not mean in any way that the tank was bad, it would mean I had done something stupid, or intentional as the DPS. Under controlled conditions, either of these classes are capable of bursting 20k+ DPS for short period of time, and no tank can hold aggro on that for long.
Post by
322291
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Post by
93865
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322291
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Post by
Quest
Cool story. One thing;
1. You base this on what
we
were in 3.x.x at 80. Not what
other
classes will be at 85.
Post by
322291
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Considering Prot Warriors are still kinda screwed up (I will miss you cleave spam!) I guess I can't say much against Paladins. Snap aggro is a little wacky, but that's never been a paladin high point anyways.
Post by
pezz
Yep. That self-heal is massive global threat.
Can I get something to confirm/deny this?
As a side note, spending 2 points for "global threat" feels like speccing for trash to me.
Yeah I'd like to hear some math behind that as well. Is WoG immune from the usual paladin healing threat nerf? Plus, what kind of numbers are prots healing for with it right now?
Post by
573588
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Varaconn
I'm getting about 8k non-crit without PotI. The little shield (assuming a fair amount of overhealing) helps, and if you have Eternal Glory, you can often rip off a couple in a row. I actually kinda like the on-demand healing of Word of Glory compared to the previous random constant healing from JoL.
Post by
Synectics
I ran a few heroics yesterday, it seemed to often heal 9k+ at 3 HP given that you're specced PotI. I found that I never lost any aggro, even without consencration up. Really liking prot's new op-ness on a side note.
I can confirm this as an accurate number.
Even better is having that first tier talent that gives it a 30% to not spend HP. I was able to use WoG a whopping five times in a HoL run during that one boss's disperse phase to keep a noob DPS alive. Definitely just luck in RNG, but was pretty damn good feeling. I've also been able to use it on myself, and then still use a SotR afterwards.
I actually kinda like the on-demand healing of Word of Glory compared to the previous random constant healing from JoL.
I really miss the feel of switching seals, but this is definitely far more involved, and I love being able to use it on others as needed. There is definitely a growing gap of skill between a "competent" tank and a "great" tank because of these sort of mechanics.
Post by
228908
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Post by
93865
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