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BM hunter vs. Enh Shammy vs. any spec rogue
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Post by
138850
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
do what the original post warrented which is explain to reaper why a rogue can't use feint in their rotation because that in itself is gimping a rogues dpsAlready done on page 2. Same for how to test, the answer has already been given at page 1.
Regarding your specific situation on your server vs what the others are saying.
Obviously you are interrested in understanding what's going on on your server, and obviously people will only be able to answer with their own experiences on their server. I'd say that hunter is probably more difficult to play because of the shot clipping, which biases everyones experience with hunters somewhat (less good ones = less favorable impression from the class)
But ultimately everyone's experience, supported by the WWSScoreboard evidence (considering the number of reports used to get those stats, i think we can safely consider that there are very good hunters in the mix) linked earlier in the thread shows that the best dps are rogues.
Can we agree on that ?
Which gives us : rogue > hunter and rogue > chaman. It'd probably also give us hunter > chaman if looking at the dps stats per class.
Questions left being :
- why are rogues bad on your server ? Bad spec, bad gearing, bad gameplay... seem strange considering a server wide population. Supposing they are well played and all, it shouldn't be threat either (without having to resort to feint), so i have no idea. Unless we get a WWS or whatever to understand what's happening we won't be going far.
- what would enhancement chamans be able to do on non threat limited fights ? Well, those can't really be found in raids, so you'll have to use one of the means that were given in the thread. Tank, healer, and the dps and wail down on those mobs with a certain timer, i think we'll all be interested in the results.
edit : i play none of those classes, so i think i can consider myself unbiased.
Post by
Qlix
ok.. heres a question about "equal" gear. Is it safe to say that rogue PvP gear is just as good as rogue PvE gear? other than the obvious lack of hit rating...
Post by
Celdhyrean
No.
I won't be able to expand in details since i don't play a rogue and don't analyze their stats enough, but there's probably a ton of item budget blown on stamina, armour and resilience that is completely useless in PvE. Also one emphasizes hit and AP (sustained damage) while the other one emphasizes crit (burst damage).
And that's ignoring the set bonusses
(edit, i rapidly compared using T4 rogue set and vengefull item set pages on wowhead, i'm not a pro but it seems to me that T4 is winning by a certain margin).
Post by
Lemma
Even if we strip the rogue and hunter of the shaman's totems (an unrealistic/stupid raid scenario and an impossible 5man scenario), the shaman will have lower dps...
why? shammies can use the same weapons as a rogue, less swords but they get axes.. they can wear the same gear.. what is it that makes a shammy in capable of doing the same amount of damage as a rogue or a hunter?
That's just the way Blizzard designed the game. You can either crunch the numbers (you have to assume certain conditions and estimate certain things) or you can go off of experience.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some shamans that can dps. The shaman I'm thinking of had T5 gear (from a previous guild) while raiding with a T4 guild though.
Post by
Lemma
ok.. heres a question about "equal" gear. Is it safe to say that rogue PvP gear is just as good as rogue PvE gear? other than the obvious lack of hit rating...
That's only true for weapons. I think Vengeful is better than T4 (only slightly) but generally pve gear is better.
Post by
Lemma
i honestly just want to know why. i like shammy's i have a level 24 shammy that doesn't get played because of exactly what ya'll are saying.. no one thinks they are raid viable.. but my level 24 rogue does the same amount of dps as a my level 24 shammy and my shammy is carrying a dang sheild. (can't duel weild till 40)
Everything changes and scales differently as you level so you can't compare lvl 24 action with raiding (lvl 70).
Also, when you're questing, dmg usually means
burst damage
whereas in raiding we're tlaking about
sustained dps
and they are both very different.
Post by
138850
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lemma
ok so they are different. i know that there is a difference between a level 24 and a level 70.. but you still haven't answered my question.. why is it that a shammy "can't" put out the same ammount of damage as a rogue? a shaman can keep sustained dps up as long as he/she has mana.. which for the duration of a 10 minute boss fight shouldn't even be an issue.
I don't know. Just the way the game is designed. Consider this... if an enh shaman could put out the same dps as a rogue AND drop totems that benefit the whole group, then there would be no reason for rogues in a raid.
Post by
138850
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
CoroHD
Because no one seems to have noticed in my previous post, I will repost this link:
http://www.wwsscoreboard.com/classplacings.php
Its a third party website that ranks players/guilds based off of their WWS or Wow Web Stats logs, which is another third party tool that simply does evaluations of the combat log of raid encounters to show DPS/Heals etc.
To quote the link I posted (at the bottom): "WWS Scoreboard currently contains 33222 raid and 371393 character reports for 45797 different characters over 42 boss encounters"
Seems like a large enough sample size eh?
For those still to lazy to read TFLink, here are the results for the averages of _all_ BC raid content:
All Content
<class> <dps>
Rogue 2456
Warlock 2210
Warrior 2067
Mage 2064
Hunter 1927
Shaman 1758
Druid 1498
Paladin 1495
Priest 1424
The averages for all 25 man raid content and T6 raid content favor Rogues even more than the all bc content average, as Rogues are one of the best scaling classes as gear gets better.
And in regards to the Threat argument: If you know how to play your class and you have a competent tank, you will not pull aggro and you will not have to let up on DPS. For Hunters that means feign death-ing, for Rogues that means vanishing.
HOWEVER, to clarify, the Rogue ability feign is not something Rogues should use, or even should have to use, let alone spam. Between our class based threat reduction and blessing of salvation, no Rogue should be able to take aggro from the tank, and if they can, it means the tank is doing something wrong. I play a Rogue and if it wern't the fact that I pug heroics on a regular basis, I wouldn't even have feint on my bars. Only rarely do I even vanish in fights, and the only time I do would be if I'm using haste potions or if someone is chaining drums of battle.
Also, since x0reaper0x asked: No, pvp armor is far worse than PvE armor. Many quest blues and AH blues are better than the S1 gladiator armor. Hit is king until you reach the cap (as long as you don't sacrifice to much of your other stats), and PvP armor provides literally no hit.
PvP weapons on the other hand are easy enough to aquire that every Rogue should be working to get at least their S1 weapons, and preferably their S2 weapons. Only 2 offhands are better than the S3 offhand (the warglaive and blade of savagery), and only 1 mainhand is better than the S3 mainhand (the warglaive).
Post by
100495
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
omglaserzpewpew
Because no one seems to have noticed in my previous post, I will repost this link:
http://www.wwsscoreboard.com/classplacings.php
Its a third party website that ranks players/guilds based off of their WWS or Wow Web Stats logs, which is another third party tool that simply does evaluations of the combat log of raid encounters to show DPS/Heals etc.
To quote the link I posted (at the bottom): "WWS Scoreboard currently contains 33222 raid and 371393 character reports for 45797 different characters over 42 boss encounters"
Seems like a large enough sample size eh?
For those still to lazy to read TFLink, here are the results for the averages of _all_ BC raid content:
All Content
<class> <dps>
Rogue 2456
Warlock 2210
Warrior 2067
Mage 2064
Hunter 1927
Shaman 1758
Druid 1498
Paladin 1495
Priest 1424
The averages for all 25 man raid content and T6 raid content favor Rogues even more than the all bc content average, as Rogues are one of the best scaling classes as gear gets better.While these statistics are interesting, I would have to question their reliability in determining the DPS capabilies of certain classes; in particular, Warriors, Paladins, Druids, Shamans, and Priests. Each of these classes can fulfill multiple roles in a group. Every Rogue on every server that has ever been will be doing one thing and one thing only - dishing out as much damage as possible. But how many Fury Warriors, Ret Paladins, Enhancement Shamans, and Shadow Priests (and whatever Druids do to DPS) are there compared to the number of tanking/healing specs? So are we averaging the DPS of Shadow Priests and Holy Priests to arrive at the conclusion that Priests do less DPS on average than Rogue? Certainly, if you take the server-wide population of Priests and compare their DPS with all the Rogues, the Rogues will win. But isn't that comparing apples to oranges (this is a rhetorical question)?
That's my 2 cents on the subject. I have only dabbled with Rogues a little, and my Shaman is Resto so... yeah. One other thing that is worth repeating is the utility that Enhancement Shamans bring to a group makes their presence worthwhile whether they top the charts or not.
Post by
CoroHD
Because no one seems to have noticed in my previous post, I will repost this link:
http://www.wwsscoreboard.com/classplacings.php
Its a third party website that ranks players/guilds based off of their WWS or Wow Web Stats logs, which is another third party tool that simply does evaluations of the combat log of raid encounters to show DPS/Heals etc.
To quote the link I posted (at the bottom): "WWS Scoreboard currently contains 33222 raid and 371393 character reports for 45797 different characters over 42 boss encounters"
Seems like a large enough sample size eh?
For those still to lazy to read TFLink, here are the results for the averages of _all_ BC raid content:
All Content
<class> <dps>
Rogue 2456
Warlock 2210
Warrior 2067
Mage 2064
Hunter 1927
Shaman 1758
Druid 1498
Paladin 1495
Priest 1424
The averages for all 25 man raid content and T6 raid content favor Rogues even more than the all bc content average, as Rogues are one of the best scaling classes as gear gets better.While these statistics are interesting, I would have to question their reliability in determining the DPS capabilies of certain classes; in particular, Warriors, Paladins, Druids, Shamans, and Priests. Each of these classes can fulfill multiple roles in a group. Every Rogue on every server that has ever been will be doing one thing and one thing only - dishing out as much damage as possible. But how many Fury Warriors, Ret Paladins, Enhancement Shamans, and Shadow Priests (and whatever Druids do to DPS) are there compared to the number of tanking/healing specs? So are we averaging the DPS of Shadow Priests and Holy Priests to arrive at the conclusion that Priests do less DPS on average than Rogue? Certainly, if you take the server-wide population of Priests and compare their DPS with all the Rogues, the Rogues will win. But isn't that comparing apples to oranges (this is a rhetorical question)?
That's my 2 cents on the subject. I have only dabbled with Rogues a little, and my Shaman is Resto so... yeah. One other thing that is worth repeating is the utility that Enhancement Shamans bring to a group makes their presence worthwhile whether they top the charts or not.
Though I cannot find anything on their site that confirms this, I believe I read somewhere (probably elitist jerks forums) that it filters out all non-dps players for the dps rankings. For example if someone in the raid have a low damage-out number but an extremely high damage-in number, it assumes that that player was a tank and filters them. Likewise, if a player has extremely low damage-out/in numbers but high healing-out numbers then it assumes that that player was a healer and filters out their numbers from the averages.
Also, unlike normal wow web stats analysis's, it figures out player dps based off of the entire fight, as opposed to just combat time. The wow web stats analysis can be flawed in that a player can pop a bunch of cooldowns, do insane dps for 15 seconds then pull aggro and die, and the WWS will show them as doing 5k dps or something like that. If it is a fight that lasts a long time though (say 5+ minutes), their dps over the entire fight is going to be very low, and the WWSscoreboard correctly shows their dps as such.
Edit: What you say about shammies (and druids actually) still makes sense though since they have two distinct DPS spec's, ele and enh (druids have boom and feral). Though it filters out the resto versions of both, you cannot tell which particular spec is better for dps without looking at the rankings of that class and seeing what spec the top players are there. And even then it probably varies somewhat from fight to fight.
Post by
reignofarrows
ok so they are different. i know that there is a difference between a level 24 and a level 70.. but you still haven't answered my question.. why is it that a shammy "can't" put out the same ammount of damage as a rogue? a shaman can keep sustained dps up as long as he/she has mana.. which for the duration of a 10 minute boss fight shouldn't even be an issue.
Shamans don't have
http://wowhead.com/?item=22054
or
http://wowhead.com/?spell=6774
, both of which rogues should have up at all times. About half of a rogues damage comes from white hits and 30% faster attack speed is huge.
http://wowhead.com/?spell=13852
will also greatly affect white damage. Melee dps might be the only thing rogues can do, but they sure as hell do it well.
Post by
145032
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
106896
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
CoroHD
what would enhancement chamans be able to do on non threat limited fights ? Well, those can't really be found in raids, so you'll have to use one of the means that were given in the thread. Tank, healer, and the dps and wail down on those mobs with a certain timer, i think we'll all be interested in the results..
Shade of Akama, Shade of Aran, Netherspite.... are all non threat capped fights. (i'm not gonna mention chess)
Shade of Akama
Rogue 5898
Warrior 4902
Warlock 4520
Mage 3820
Hunter 3592
Shaman 3196
Paladin 2817
Priest 2463
Druid 2444
You can sort by raid and fight on that website too.
Post by
reignofarrows
Funny how so many think shamans are "mediocre" yet many have probably never played as a shaman before. I have a 52 shaman, was ele until 41 and respec'd to try out enhance, duel wf and flurry is stronger than most of you would think. I have out dps'd both rogues and hunters, its more about the players than the classes. Rogues are pure dps, while shamans can do a respectable amount of damage they also bring a large variety of buffs. Healing stream, mana spring, magma totem(cc which rogues cannot do), str of earth, earthbind, etc, etc, the list goes on. The true strength in shamans isnt in pure dps, its in raising the dps and capabilities of ALL party members.
Reighofarrows - So what if shamans dont have poison abilities? Rogues dont have wf which as a dw enh shaman does 1/4 to 1/3 of my total dmg. My MH wf procs can get as high as 1500 at lvl52. Enh shamans have a 30% faster att speed also, its called flurry and it activates when we get a melee crit.
Lets say you have a 5 man instance team, 1 healer, a tank and 3 melee dps. These are the totems I usually drop, mana spring, grace of air/windfury and stoneskin totem/strength of earth. At 52 my totems give the following, str of earth - 70 str, GoA - 43 agil, 6.5 mana/sec per spell user and stoneskin - reduced melee dmg by 22. In that group thats a total of 280 str, 172 agil, a 20% chance at a melee att thats 2-3 times the power of a normal one, upto 32.5 mana/sec and 100-200 reduced melee dmg depending on the mob sizes. Thats not considering the conveniece of the other totems such as tremor totem which reduces sleep, fear and charm effects that can last up to 30 sec to a max of 5. Shamans and hunters also have an advantage of being able to attack from a distance to stay out of aoe spells, that of which rogues do not.
This is a discussion about which class does more DPS, not which class is better. You completely missed the point.
Post by
Qlix
um... actually as the OP i can say everyone is way off topic... the topic is where could it be tested in the real world... not which is better and why...
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