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Escape from Kezan in-game cinematic
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Post by
sutasafaia
While I won't say what happened was right, I do somewhat believe that there may have been some Twilight involvement in this attack. As was already said, if the goal of the attack was to capture and hold Thrall and force a surrender from the Horde, there would have been no reason at all to keep it to a no witnesses basis. Considering (SPOILER) that the high priest of the light is Twilight, who knows how deep into the Alliance government the Twilight has spread. It's entirely possible the Twilight were trying to capture Thrall for their own purposes considering he may be the strongest Shaman on Azeroth.
I'm not saying the Alliance did not fire first, or that the Alliance are all goody goodies (god that would be boring), I am saying though that all may not be as it appears in this case. We also don't know if there were escorts for Thrall's ship. It's possible there were none, they were trying to hide the fact he was there by posing as a simple merchant ship. It's also possible that there were escorts that were already sunk, we have no real way of knowing.
Considering Thrall is on that ship I also am not sure who fired first. If the ship was a disguised merchant ship trying to hide Thrall I can pretty much guarantee the Alliance ambushed them and fired first. If the ship had escorts then it's possible either of them fired first, either Alliance from ambush or the Horde in automatic defense of Thrall. It's kinda hard to say when the video starts mid-battle. That said however, there does not appear to be any burning wreckage of other Horde ships.
Anyway, in regards to the actual video...
Epic. That is all.
Post by
91650
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Post by
382219
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Post by
Rankkor
I do somewhat believe that there may have been some Twilight involvement in this attack
again, I find it amusing how whenever the horde does something despicable, is because they are evil, but if the alliance does something equally wrong then it's because the twilight is involved or some other generic bad-guy pulling the strings........
dunno why is so hard for people to accept that the alliance isn't a bunch of heroes and paragons of justice as they so love to believe. They are just as ruthless as the horde is.
Post by
Adamsm
I do somewhat believe that there may have been some Twilight involvement in this attack
again, I find it amusing how whenever the horde does something despicable, is because they are evil, but if the alliance does something equally wrong then it's because the twilight is involved or some other generic bad-guy pulling the strings........
dunno why is so hard for people to accept that the alliance isn't a bunch of heroes and paragons of justice as they so love to believe. They are just as ruthless as the horde is.
Because it has been... at least for Stormwind, up till BC? I actually said the Twilight suggestion back when it was said Thrall was captured... just because no Alliance based magi would be strong enough to hold him, beyond Jaina, who wouldn't be part of something like that.
Post by
kamandi
this is the alliance's wrathgate.
"forsaken" dropped the plague... oops, it was just putricide et al.
"Humans/Alliance" ambushed Thrall's transport... oops, it was the Twilight cultists trying to prevent Thrall from helping at the Malestrom.
i'm sure this plot line will advance and hopefully get semi resolved throughout the expansion. I could see it being the vehicle of increased hostility, only to end up as the villan's fault as a way to manipulate the situation.
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450499
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Post by
612400
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Post by
sutasafaia
I do somewhat believe that there may have been some Twilight involvement in this attack
again, I find it amusing how whenever the horde does something despicable, is because they are evil, but if the alliance does something equally wrong then it's because the twilight is involved or some other generic bad-guy pulling the strings........
dunno why is so hard for people to accept that the alliance isn't a bunch of heroes and paragons of justice as they so love to believe. They are just as ruthless as the horde is.
Read my entire post before you respond please. I never said the Alliance is a bunch of paragons who can do no wrong. I clearly stated my reason for believing the Twilight could have some involvement in the attack. The fact your jumping in, quoting one tiny piece of my entire post, and simply saying I think the Alliance are all boyscouts is a bit out of context.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm not arguing that what you said isn't a possibility, I'm arguing that it isn't the ONLY possibility
it is. Thrall would never attack unless provoked, this is basically his stapple on the character, he's not a bloodthirsty warlord.
ever since his rise to power in lord of the clans, his policy has been to NEVER engage the alliance unless they attack first.
he was on the ship meaning he was the commanding officer on it, the ship had no guns on it, so the only way that ship could posibly attack the fleet would had been if thrall himself had sank the fleet (wich he did after he was freed, he was retaliating after being attacked, he never trows the first stone)
Rank, please tell me why each of there other possible scenarios are completely unreasonable and illogical.
ok
The Alliance ships was patrolling the area and caught the transport as it was passing by.
again, do the goblin starting quests, if u're not on the beta, then read it from wowwiki. This isn't regular alliance navy, nor is it the standard army of stormwind, this is SI:7. Basically the equivalent of the CIA of stormwind.
on the real world, if the US and (let's use an example) China are at war, if a US Squad of marines by pure coincidence stumble upon the escort comvoy of the prime minister of china, well, that happens, soldiers are sent on patrol missions, and that sort of thing.
but if a CIA Squad does the same, that is NOT a coincidence, CIA are spies, black-op teams, they get deployed ONLY on a mission and with very specific targets.
the people who attacked thrall are members of stormwind's assassins' guild, their secret-police, their black-op teams u get the gist, these people u will never find them by chance, if u find them (or rather THEY find you) then it's because that's their plan and mission.
this was not something pulled randomly. Spies and Assassins aren't sent to standad patrol missions.
The Alliance ships saw the transport leaving Durator, and not knowning who was on the ship, perused it until they caught it at the islands.
they knew who was on that ship, The captain said "our orders are to capture the horde target at all costs"
let me repeat that, THE CAPTAIN said "our orders are to capture the horde target at all costs"
THE CAPTAIN, in other words, the leader and admiral of the entire fleet was following orders from higher up the chain of command.
if they had found the ship by accident, then the captain wound't be following orders, he would be in command of the mission and from there issue orders acording to his judgement he'd say something along the lines of "we must not let this oportunity slip by, this could end the war" but no. the leading man of the whole fleet was already there due to someone else giving the orders.
is not like they casually found thrall's ship, the captain whiped out his cell-phone and called varian to ask for instructions, he was sent there with his orders already. This is a medieval time, to get orders carried across the world would take days, months perpahs if it's across continents, the fact that the leader of the entire expedition was already following orders shows this was deliberated.
notice how he calls thrall "the target" their whole mission objective was to seize him. and leaving no witnesses would had been a part of their mission or else they woudn't fire at any other random ship in the area (again another mark of black-op teams when they operate, since what they do is illegal, they never are allowed to leave witnesses or evidence of their involvement anywhere)
The Alliance captain ordered the Horde ship to surrender and it tried to out-maneuver and escape and which the Alliance ships started firing.
all these others can quickly be answered by reading wowwiki. the entire goblin chain proves that no negotiations were made, you find the ship-logs of the drakka's fury, where they specifically say that the alliance ships found them, and opened fire without saying a single word.
The Alliance sent a small party to interrogate the crew and the actual Horde crew being over-zealous in protecting Thrall attacked the party.
again Thrall was in command, he would order his men to stand down, and if they disobey, he would had either execute them, or punish them. Back on Lord of the Clans, Thrall personally backhanded a chieftain who atacked a human village without thrall's consent, and even in the violet citadel and argent tournament, Thrall reprimended garrosh for his attitude. During the entire goblin chain, thrall neither berates, nor punishes, nor scolds his troops at any moment, because they never disobeyed him, they never fired the first shot.
The Alliance did send a party to seige control of the ship and arrest the Orcs, which prompted the fighting.
Thrall and the Alliance captain meet and not trusting Thralls story decided to detain him, in hopes of ending the war.
sorry but neither of these happened.
Thrall is THE most powerful shaman in the world, he singlehandedly sinks the entire fleet when you free him, and manages to kill a good size of the infantry byhimself (and he also empowers you so u can have your fill too)
the only reason they captured him in the first place, was because they got the jump on him, ships showed up out of nowhere, bombarded the crap out of thrall's ship, then when he was unconcious on the shore, captured him and locked him up on the magical cage they specially had for him. (this is all directly stated on the quest, not implied, DIRECTLY stated)
had they show themselves thrall would had been prepared, and he would had summoned a tornado and lightning storm to obliterate the fleet (wich he does after you free him) but he didint do that because no negotiations where made, no warning shot, no offer of surrender. nada.
Alliance ships showed up, alliance ships fired, alliance ships fired upon the only witness vessel in sight, and alliance ships sent assassins to the beach to finish off survivors. before we continue this debate, READ the goblin quest-chain in wowwiki, because many of the points youre raising are anwsered there.
Post by
Rankkor
Read my entire post before you respond please. I never said the Alliance is a bunch of paragons who can do no wrong. I clearly stated my reason for believing the Twilight could have some involvement in the attack. The fact your jumping in, quoting one tiny piece of my entire post, and simply saying I think the Alliance are all boyscouts is a bit out of context.
=/ my tone was a bit agressive, sorry about that bro', but it's getting annoying.
how many times when the horde does something nasty has someone actually bothered to pin the fault to an outside party? NEVER, but now that the alliance is finnaly getting their hands dirty, people dismiss it as the actions of an outside party.
indirectly those who say that are stating taht the alliance would never act dishonorably, if they're gonna be rebuting that each bad action of the alliance is atributed to a third party pulling the strings.
also, SI:7 would be the last place for the cult to infiltrate, these people are the most paranoid of the paranoid, the top-elite spy organization in azeroth. If the twilight was really infiltrated on it, they could had just as easily assasinate the entire royal family without a problem.
Post by
GVHB
They don't have to be infiltrated in the SI:7. Those guys are the black ops of the Alliance so they will do anything they are told to do from important and powerful figures in Stormwind and do not question their orders. I'm not saying that this is Twilight Hammer Cult work but we don't know who ordered the fleet and the SI:7 to attack and capture Thrall. Could it be Varian? yes, sure but we don't know.
Post by
Rankkor
They don't have to be infiltrated in the SI:7. Those guys are the black ops of the Alliance so they will do anything they are told to do from important and powerful figures in Stormwind and do not question their orders. I'm not saying that this is Twilight Hammer Cult work but we don't know who ordered the fleet and the SI:7 to attack and capture Thrall. Could it be Varian? yes, sure but we don't know.
it wound't necesarily be varian, after all does the president of the united states has to presonally authorize EVERY SINGLE mission of the CIA? nope, the president apoints someone as the director of the CIA; and this director is then given enough authority to carry on these missions.
what I'm trying to get here is that the "man behind the man" is not some third party, no twilight or anything, this is simply stormwind doing something bad.
nothing more nothing less.
who gave the order? an officer of SI:7, if an admiral was following orders then it was a fat fish of the SI:7. But who exactly? Mathias? that goblin next to him? we wont know. not enough data.
but we do have enough data to confirm that this wasn't the actions of a rogue alliance splinter group, nor was it the actions of a third party manipulating the SI:7, this was simply the alliance doing something wrong.
it happens.
live with it.
I've had to live with the horde doing a lot worst in the past 2 years.
Post by
GVHB
Hey, I also believe it was a work of the Alliance. I used Varian just as an example, it could be someone else but we don't know who it was.
I suppose this topic with be touched upon the next time Thrall meets with Varian and/or Jaina, we hadn't hear anything about the attempted kidnap of Thrall by Alliance forces since the Lost Isles.
Post by
Rankkor
Hey, I also believe it was a work of the Alliance. I used Varian just as an example, it could be someone else but we don't know who it was.
I suppose this topic with be touched upon the next time Thrall meets with Varian and/or Jaina, we hadn't hear anything about the attempted kidnap of Thrall by Alliance forces since the Lost Isles.
=( sorry I guess I'm acting like a jerk.
gotta take a deep breath (the non-incendiary type)
I'm not directly saying varian was the one responsible (that would be silly, he may be the king of stormwind but that doesn't mean he directly orders everything that happens the same way that a president woudn't directly order 100% of what happens in his administration, that's why they appoint others in high places of power to help them micro-manage the administration)
I'm saying though that whoever was responsible IS a member of the alliance, and not a traitor, nor a rogue member, but an actual member of the alliance doing something dishonorable. Then it annoys me how quickly people dismiss it as the actions of a third party, but these same people woud NEVER do the same if it was the horde doing something dishonorable.
if it was the horde, then it's because they're evil, if it was the alliance, then something evil forced them.
this is what is getting rather annoying
Post by
sutasafaia
Read my entire post before you respond please. I never said the Alliance is a bunch of paragons who can do no wrong. I clearly stated my reason for believing the Twilight could have some involvement in the attack. The fact your jumping in, quoting one tiny piece of my entire post, and simply saying I think the Alliance are all boyscouts is a bit out of context.
=/ my tone was a bit agressive, sorry about that bro', but it's getting annoying.
how many times when the horde does something nasty has someone actually bothered to pin the fault to an outside party? NEVER, but now that the alliance is finnaly getting their hands dirty, people dismiss it as the actions of an outside party.
indirectly those who say that are stating taht the alliance would never act dishonorably, if they're gonna be rebuting that each bad action of the alliance is atributed to a third party pulling the strings.
also, SI:7 would be the last place for the cult to infiltrate, these people are the most paranoid of the paranoid, the top-elite spy organization in azeroth. If the twilight was really infiltrated on it, they could had just as easily assasinate the entire royal family without a problem.
No need to apologize, I can see how it would get old. Was just pointing it out was all. I happen to enjoy a good argument (aka one that doesn't devolve into flame wars) so I tend to sometimes play devils advocate. In this case though I really think it's either lazy writing, or there's more than meets the eye going on.
And yea, I can see SI:7 being very hard to infiltrate. The only problem is we have no idea where the order originated, and the way it is being carried out is still very strange in my eyes. Attacking a nations leader is something you do not do in private so to speak, at least not in the way it was being done here. If you succeed in capturing him you scream it from the top of the wall as loud as you can, you WANT the enemy to find out. Considering they are in the middle of the ocean, once they had Thrall on board and captured leaving a surviving ship that hadn't opened fire yet would actually have been in their advantage, it would have been somebody to spread the word of Thralls capture. There would have been no way for reinforcements to arrive fast enough to stop the transport of Thrall back to Stormwind for imprisonment.
Then again, I may just be looking way to deeply into this. I hope I'm not though, and not because I would prefer the Twilight to be behind it. It's just not very well thought out if it's just a simple matter of "grab Thrall and kill everybody that watches." It's just not good strategy, at least in my eyes.
Post by
GVHB
=( sorry I guess I'm acting like a jerk.
Heh, you don't have to apologize. Don't worry.
I'm not directly saying varian was the one responsible (that would be silly, he may be the king of stormwind but that doesn't mean he directly orders everything that happens the same way that a president woudn't directly order 100% of what happens in his administration, that's why they appoint others in high places of power to help them micro-manage the administration)
I know you aren't.
I'm saying though that whoever was responsible IS a member of the alliance, and not a traitor, nor a rogue member, but an actual member of the alliance doing something dishonorable. Then it annoys me how quickly people dismiss it as the actions of a third party, but these same people woud NEVER do the same if it was the horde doing something dishonorable.
I agree with you there. I also think it was the Alliance, not the Twilight. But I can't, personally, be sure until we have a quest/event that says <this guy> ordered the kidnap of Thrall.
Post by
Rankkor
Attacking a nations leader is something you do not do in private so to speak, at least not in the way it was being done here.
If you succeed
in capturing him you scream it from the top of the wall as loud as you can, you WANT the enemy to find out. Considering they are in the middle of the ocean, once they had Thrall on board and captured
leaving a surviving ship that hadn't opened fire yet would actually have been in their advantage
@the bolded part: IF THEY SUCCEED, but they hand't yet, they attacked the ship, and were about to seize thrall, but the mission is not over untill thrall is in a secure location such as the stockades in stormwind, as long as thrall is still in their ships he can still be rescued.
@the underlined part: have you seen where the lost isles are? they are very near azshara, (this is why the goblins move there when the volcano in the lost isles explodes, since azshara is the nearest land avaliable) and where is azhsara? right next to orgrimmar and durotar.
yep, they were attacking thrall right on the backyard of the horde, letting the goblins live would had warned the horde that their warchief and most revered hero was being abducted.
then this fleet would had to somehow travel to stormwind while dodging the entire horde warmachine (as the horde would had spared no troops to rescue thrall, Air fleet, sea fleet, full regiments of infantry and aerial units). It would had compromised the mission.
so yhea, there's nothing suspicious about them wanting to leave no witnesses, simply alliance agents being cold and ruthless and merciless calculative and of course evil, all for the sake of their mission. (executing inocent civilians just to capture their target isn't right, there were hundreds of inocent goblins in that ship, only Gallywix and his mooks were bad) This is also the reason why they didn't just left after geting their hands on thrall, they sent assassins to the beach to finish off any survivors and make sure none sends a warnign to the horde.(the goblins did built a full shipyard in a matter of days)
thrall later says how according to the crew of the ship u busted him from,had commented how he'd be paraded in the halls of stormwind as an animal. The alliance would had shouted to the 4 winds their capture of thrall but only after he was secured in an impregnable location, such as the prisons of stormwind or somewhere similar.
Post by
sutasafaia
Attacking a nations leader is something you do not do in private so to speak, at least not in the way it was being done here.
If you succeed
in capturing him you scream it from the top of the wall as loud as you can, you WANT the enemy to find out. Considering they are in the middle of the ocean, once they had Thrall on board and captured
leaving a surviving ship that hadn't opened fire yet would actually have been in their advantage
@the bolded part: IF THEY SUCCEED, but they hand't yet, they attacked the ship, and were about to seize thrall, but the mission is not over untill thrall is in a secure location such as the stockades in stormwind, as long as thrall is still in their ships he can still be rescued.
@the underlined part: have you seen where the lost isles are? they are very near azshara, (this is why the goblins move there when the volcano in the lost isles explodes, since azshara is the nearest land avaliable) and where is azhsara? right next to orgrimmar and durotar.
yep, they were attacking thrall right on the backyard of the horde, letting the goblins live would had warned the horde that their warchief and most revered hero was being abducted.
then this fleet would had to somehow travel to stormwind while dodging the entire horde warmachine (as the horde would had spared no troops to rescue thrall, Air fleet, sea fleet, full regiments of infantry and aerial units). It would had compromised the mission.
so yhea, there's nothing suspicious about them wanting to leave no witnesses, simply alliance agents being cold and ruthless and merciless calculative and of course evil, all for the sake of their mission. (executing inocent civilians just to capture their target isn't right, there were hundreds of inocent goblins in that ship, only Gallywix and his mooks were bad) This is also the reason why they didn't just left after geting their hands on thrall, they sent assassins to the beach to finish off any survivors and make sure none sends a warnign to the horde.(the goblins did built a full shipyard in a matter of days)
thrall later says how according to the crew of the ship u busted him from,had commented how he'd be paraded in the halls of stormwind as an animal. The alliance would had shouted to the 4 winds their capture of thrall but only after he was secured in an impregnable location, such as the prisons of stormwind or somewhere similar.
There were at the lost isles? That would be my mistake entirely then, for some reason I thought they were at that little island near Stormwind. I got the location confused with the one for the underwater zone. If that's the case then yea, Twilight involvement doesn't seem likely anymore.
Also, what the heck? Why parade him around like an animal? Thrall is the kind of person you WANT to be at war with (assuming you want to be at war in the first place, but you know what I mean). Why would you want to be that cruel to somebody who would more than likely give you some of his own dinner if you were his prisoner o.0
Post by
46491
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