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10.2.7
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Prot builds for 4.0?
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Post by
439646
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Post by
2259
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Post by
Shiverlynn
There are many possible builds right now, although I'm no theorycrafter and can't tell which one is going to be the best.
I think I'm going to go with
this
for main tanking and
this
for multi-target (the last point in either Rude Interruption or Piercing Howl).
Post by
Sakkura
Are War Academy or Shield Spec really needed?
I'd rather remove Shield Spec points and put them in Incite.
I just never have an issue with rage generation, so I won't miss that extra 10 rage from a block.
Similarly, cruelty? Extra crit chance to shield slam? Can't pass up surely?
Keep in mind the new rage model where rage is supposed to be much more scarce.
Anyway, Blitz seems pretty lacklustre so I'm skipping that. Vigilance is pretty bad for an MT and useless for heroics. Concussion Blow on its own may not be worth a talent point, though it depends how they end up balancing the numbers. Overall, I'm leaning in
this
direction for heroics, and
this
for raiding. An offtank will of course want to respec to grab vigilance.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
No Blood Craze?
You disapoint me
.
10% to regen 9% max hp when being struck by anything? Thats fantastic.
It averages out to regenerating 0.9% of max hp every time you take damage. So with 60k health, you get 540 health when hit. It isn't bad, but not necessarily mandatory either. Though it does depend on how healing works out and how the current raids are rebalanced (they're balanced for spamhealing now, if healers can't spamheal they need to nerf the damage or the raids will be nearly impossible in 4.0 at 80). For 5-man content I suppose it does get extra mileage since the incoming HPS isn't as huge and the number of incoming attacks tends to be larger. So I guess it would be a good idea to include it in 5-man builds.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
540 on average. But its not 540 per hit. Its more of a burst hot 1k+ per second for 5 seconds.
I wouldnt spec that for 5man, unless its for soloing content.
That it's more random/bursty doesn't make it better. If anything it makes it worse in that it can't be counted on as wannabe-EH.
For 5-mans the relative impact of the talent will be far greater than for raids. On the other hand, staying alive tends to be more difficult in raids than 5-mans, at least until we get into the Cataclysm content (particularly the heroics).
Post by
2259
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Post by
Sakkura
I don't know whether it was your intention, but those are identical builds. :P
Doh! Thanks, I put in the right raid build now. Basically just moving points from Gag Order and one of the TC talents, since you won't tend to need AoE threat as badly in raids. Even more so in Cataclysm raids.
Post by
2259
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Post by
Sakkura
Surely Impending Victory and 5% health could be useful for heroics?
Yes. But probably nowhere near as useful as the AoE threat and pulling utility of the TC talents and Gag Order respectively.
On the other hand, the TC talents and Gag Order aren't useless in raids, but just tend to be less important and thus I would expect Impending Victory to be more beneficial.
Post by
marklartank
Anyway, Blitz seems pretty lacklustre so I'm skipping that. Vigilance is pretty bad for an MT and useless for heroics. Concussion Blow on its own may not be worth a talent point, though it depends how they end up balancing the numbers. Overall, I'm leaning in
this
direction for heroics, and
this
for raiding. An offtank will of course want to respec to grab vigilance.
you're going with hold the line? it sounds pretty lackluster to me.
from what i've been reading, tanks are going to be no longer in danger of dying in the span of a few seconds, so secondary healing effects and procs should be much more useful than they are today.
i was going to start with something like
this
and then fill in more threat talents as needed.
Post by
Sakkura
you're going with hold the line? it sounds pretty lackluster to me.
Are you serious? 10% crit
and
10% crit block is pretty awesome, unless the uptime is terrible. Which of course depends on our parry numbers, but since they're making parry and dodge equal in terms of DR and also trying to make avoidance a little more useful, I don't see how that would happen.
Secondary healing stuff will be better yes, but that doesn't mean they will be good no matter what. You will still be receiving a lot of healing as MT in a 25-man raid, so healing small bits of health here and there will be dwarfed by that, potentially to the point of being inferior to other talents.
Post by
marklartank
uptime is of course a concern, but even assuming uptime is good, there a couple things about it that make me hesitate.
"for 10 seconds":
the crit part is ok, giving me a small threat boost for my next 6 swings or so, but crit has always been a very weak threat stat.
for survival, i have "10% increased critical block chance". the value of this is going to depend on some other things. since it doesn't increase the chance to block, what is my base block chance going to be?
statistically, you would first need to look at the chance of even getting a block within x swings of a parry. the chance is better for fast swinging bosses, and goes down quickly for slow swinging bosses. of course, if we can assume no ICD, then another parry would refresh the buff but a slow swinging boss would certainly reduce the uptime.
then IF you do block, you have an extra 10% chance to block 30% more incoming damage. assuming tanks start around 100k hp, and bosses hit for about 30k, then i'm reducing the hit by an extra 9k. the actual reduction is nice, but how often will it happen? and when it does, was that 9k reduction significant or lost in overhealing?
obviously, there are a lot of unknowns here, and i'm not saying it's a bad talent. i'm just not convinced it's a must-have yet.
Post by
Sakkura
"for 10 seconds":
the crit part is ok, giving me a small threat boost for my next 6 swings or so, but crit has always been a very weak threat stat.
I disagree. Crit rating has been a weak threat stat. Agility -> crit has been a weak threat stat. Crit in itself is and has been an important threat "stat" ever since warriors moved from heavy reliance on innate threat modifiers (which, IIRC, did not benefit from crits) to relying mainly on actual damage done, multiplied by a threat modifier. In that model, crits help tanks' threat basically at the same rate that it helps DPSers DPS.
The main reason tanks haven't been going for crit is that tanks have a lot less budget to spend on threat stats than DPSers have to spend on DPS stats; DPSers go for hit and expertise before strength, ArP etc. too. A secondary reason is block value was marketed at tanks as a threat/survival hybrid stat, with a special mechanic (shield slam scaling) to work off of. And finally, tanks got all the crit they needed tied into talents like
Sword and Board
,
Critical Block
, and
Incite
.
Getting 10% crit on
everything
is not trivial. It is a considerable boost. Heck, the talent might actually be worth it for the crit alone.
for survival, i have "10% increased critical block chance". the value of this is going to depend on some other things. since it doesn't increase the chance to block, what is my base block chance going to be?
statistically, you would first need to look at the chance of even getting a block within x swings of a parry. the chance is better for fast swinging bosses, and goes down quickly for slow swinging bosses. of course, if we can assume no ICD, then another parry would refresh the buff but a slow swinging boss would certainly reduce the uptime.
then IF you do block, you have an extra 10% chance to block 30% more incoming damage. assuming tanks start around 100k hp, and bosses hit for about 30k, then i'm reducing the hit by an extra 9k. the actual reduction is nice, but how often will it happen? and when it does, was that 9k reduction significant or lost in overhealing?
Well, critical block is also what our mastery rating ties into. Blizzard have repeatedly emphasized that they want mastery to be a desirable stat for all specs. So we have to assume that they will make critical block worth something, and in that case then increasing the critical block chance should also be worth something.
As for overhealing, that is supposed to be a terrible crime in the new healing model. Healers are, according to Blizzard at least, facing a situation where you cannot afford to waste mana. Overhealing is wasted mana, so presumably saving some damage now and then will lead to saving some healer mana and in that way be potentially helpful. It might not make a huge difference, particularly in situations with low uptime (slow-swing bosses as you point out), but every little bit could help.
obviously, there are a lot of unknowns here, and i'm not saying it's a bad talent. i'm just not convinced it's a must-have yet.
Indeed, and it certainly is best to keep an open mind for the time being. I'm not convinced it will be a mandatory or near-mandatory talent, but it's what I suspect. If nothing else it should remain good for 5-man content even if the uptime lets it down in raids.
Post by
marklartank
good point about overhealing - i didn't mean to downplay the effectiveness of reducing damage.
it's also interesting to note that this talent will get more powerful as gear gets better, unlike our current block-based talents.
assuming 100% uptime on the buff:
at 15% block, it's good for ~1.5% chance to reduce 30% of the hit (or 0.45% avoidance)
at 25% block, it's good for ~2.5% chance to reduce 30% of the hit (or 0.75% avoidance)
at level 80, with the very low block % that we have now, i intend to skip it. but i'll definitely keep an eye on it.
Post by
Sakkura
Well, on the other hand there have been evil rumours about raid bosses getting progressively more expertise over the course of the Cataclysm raid progression, so that would hurt this talent by keeping our actual parry chance presumably either roughly the same or at least not increasing by much.
As for the double roll thing about critical block, I really hope that's not how it ends up working. It's counterintuitive and has some seriously bad consequences for our gearing decisions.
Post by
marklartank
Well, on the other hand there have been evil rumours about raid bosses getting progressively more expertise over the course of the Cataclysm raid progression, so that would hurt this talent by keeping our actual parry chance presumably either roughly the same or at least not increasing by much.
As for the double roll thing about critical block, I really hope that's not how it ends up working. It's counterintuitive and has some seriously bad consequences for our gearing decisions.
yeah, i've been reading it as a double roll, but that's just based on how i'm interpreting the text. i'm not on PTR and i haven't done any testing.
Post by
GoogleMe
yeah, i've been reading it as a double roll, but that's just based on how i'm interpreting the text. i'm not on PTR and i haven't done any testing.
I've not been playing on the PTR either, but I've read several detailed testing reports that demonstrated this clearly. Critical block does not have its own entry in the combat table. This means your critical block rate is not nearly as high as casually indicated - it is the percentage of blocks that will be critical, not the percentage of swings that will be critical blocks. Testing (by others, not me) has shown that this currently results in avoidance being of more value than mastery.
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