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Is this really the majority?
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Post by
Adamsm
Yes, because the first thing you do while running an instance is to insult someone... if someone did that with me, I would also drop group; don't need anyone bashing my play style. You don't like heirlooms, that's fine, but don't bad mouth someone else because they like playing with them(note, my alliance toons have pretty much a full set of all the gear).
Well, by the sounds of it, the Paladin was being quite aggressive/rude about the OP's playstyle so he's not exactly an anagel to be honest.
Still, considering the response back.... just shows it takes both sides there.
Post by
341421
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Post by
334295
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Post by
Pwntiff
Heh, when I'm DPS, I make my tanks work. I won't intentionally pull aggro or more mobs, but I will make the tank work to hold it. It's the only way to truly learn how to tank.
If you are a tank and are asking groups to wait for 5 sunders then focus-fire the kill order, you aren't going to be prepared for pulls that go bad. If you Charge in with a queued Cleave, Thunder Clap, Demo Shout, Shield Slam the priority, Shockwave, Revenge so the DPS can go all out at Thunder Clap, you will be better prepared for when that pat decides to come back early.
Of course, I just like a challenge when I play...
Edit: Same with healing. You learn how to manage your mana pool and keep everyone up faster if damage is going everywhere. While I don't enjoy instances where the tank isn't actually tanking anything, those times when a bad pull grabs some more and I'm having to use every GCD to keep people up are quite enjoyable.
Post by
pezz
You probably are in the minority, when it comes to views on leveling.
I've leveled six 80s at this point. Questing isn't novel anymore, it isn't fun. It takes way, way, way too long. And trying new classes? I tried my girlfriend's fully epic'd demo lock's rotation once, that was fun, and informative about the class. Spamming shadowbolt for 15 levels until I get something not terrible is incredibly boring, and tells me next to nothing about how the class performs at 80.
Frankly, after a certain number of 80's, they ought to just give you the option to grab a full set. I don't understand why they think I want to spend 100 hours doing things I've done over and over before I do anything that I enjoy.
On RPG games, how often do you play again to try to play it differently, when there's about 10 minutes of cutscenes at the beginning? Now, how often do you play a different game again when there's a solid two hours of cutscenes and really basic 'learn how to play' tutorials you can't skip? Why MMOs think it's perfectly reasonable to have this kind of thing happen for four
days
worth of time is beyond me, when my personal limit on any other platform is about a half an hour.
At the OP, though, that paladin was a jerk. Hating leveling and loving heirlooms is fine, but you don't have to terrorize five mans over it.
Post by
Pwntiff
It's the learning curve. How many T8+ 80s have you seen that have zero ability for their class? Granted eBay'ers are a minority, but when you immediately drop a player at 80, they will have no ability for their class. Yes, its a pain to level a new class, but I look at it as a rite of passage.
Does the player who leveled a Hunter to 55, then a DK to 80 have the right to have a high-level Mage just because he already made it to 80 on another character?
I picked those two classes because they are, in my experience, the easiest ones to level.
Post by
pezz
I've seen plenty such 80s. Leveling isn't even close to a litmus test of player ability anymore, and it was always a poor one.
The solo game is far removed from the end-game PvE game. A high-level Mage who got that high level by exclusively AoE frost leveling knows as much about raiding Arcane as I do, and I've never gotten a mage past level 24.
If he has never done end-game DPS before, as I have, and he knows nothing about wowhead or EJ, as I do, then I, the person who got a freebie character, am going to be a
lot
better
at that role than he is.
And for the record, the player who leveled a Hunter to 55 and then a DK to 80 doesn't have a right to a high-level mage, I'm talking about people with experience in either end-game PvE or PvP, on several characters, who already have several 80s.
The other thing I don't get is why players who prefer solo play (which is fine, this isn't a rant about why people who enjoy leveling are inferior, I just personally don't care for it) are favored over serious PvE and PvPers. If I want to PvE, I can avoid PvP completely, and vice versa if I want to PvP. We know this is intended Blizzard policy because this
wasn't
the case in TBC, and the devs expressed their dislike, and changed the system. And, if I want to do solo play, I can avoid
both
systems.
Why, then, if I want to PvE or PvP, I have to spend a hundred hours doing solo play? This was a problem for the devs when it was PvE versus PvP, but apparently it's absolutely fine when we have to spend hundreds of hours leveling characters, because evidently the Holy priest with Kingslayer needs to spend days and days learning how to heal, but a person who leveled a paladin exclusively as Retribution would already know it at 80 somehow.
Post by
Pwntiff
First of all, it's impossible to avoid both PvE and PvP since solo play is, in fact, PvE.
Your argument has some merit, but as a Resto Druid since Dual-Spec, I may not need to learn how to heal, but how to heal as a Disc Priest... that and DPS as Shadow. My little circle tosses around the idea of being able to start new classes at 55-58 if you have reached a certain milestone (like 2 or 3 top-levels), but we encounter two flaws each time:
So someone who has two 80s will lose the ability to roll new classes at 58 when Cataclysm launches? Or just keep the limit at old content?
An influx of players who don't know their class. Like DKs who faceroll through Outland and Northrend. Yes, there are some decent ones, but they have a stigma for a reason.
Also, I think Blizzard said they don't want to let players start above 1 except for Hero Classes.
Post by
pezz
When I say PvE I'm referring to progression raiding. That really is at the top of PvE. There are other valid pursuits in PvE, and it's
technically
PvE to solo and level, but the theoretical height of pure PvE play is progression raiding.
1. Obviously they could put a moratorium on new race/class combinations, as well as on new races entirely for quite a while, to keep competition for realm firsts fair. The other aspect of that is that it would make experiencing the updated old world content entirely volitional for people who are in the position of already having several 80s. My response to that would be that it already
is
volitional. I can level my paladin and druid to 85 and not roll any alts, or go back and do any quests, and I'll miss all of it. If that was all I wanted to do, I wouldn't care that I was missing the new stuff in the first place.
Besides, there's plenty of alternate leveling paths already; you can skip a ton of content. I don't know why it would all of the sudden bother Blizzard or someone who
already
wasn't interested in the stuff they'd missed that they were going to be missing a little more content.
2. I don't think it would happen. The closest thing to a 1:1 correlation with a person's ability is his or her willingness and/or capability to think and/or do research. These things don't magically switch on if you've spent ages leveling from one to 80. If it doesn't occur to you that 'damage increases based on how many diseases affect the target' means you should use your diseases at level 58, then it probably won't just because you turn 80. After a while, you might figure it out, but that could also be the case for someone who buys an account on Ebay and figures it out after a few days of doing randoms. Nothing about the leveling experience changes the effect of him thinking about tooltips and putting two and two together.
The fact that people learn things about their class while leveling is largely accidental: It comes down to the fact that you learn more quickly when there's a lot of easy things to learn, and the point at which there's a lot of easy things to learn simply happens to be the point at which most people are leveling. There's no particular reason why the learning process has to happen that way.
The only thing that might happen in this vein is that
bad
players become very slightly
worse
players. I don't see this as a problem that comes close to outweighing the merits of my idea.
Post by
Varicelle
I love the leveling process as much as i love raiding, actually, providing i really love the class i'm playing (duh).
Raiding sure is gratifying, but it also can be stressful, demanding, while leveling is relaxing and fun, since you can skip whatever stuff you don't want to do, and be on you own for a while, reflecting on things while bashing a clefthoof on the head.
It saddens me to see that a lot of people really hate the leveling process, and feel they can't be 80 fast enough. Sure if you're rolling a class for a specific purpose (say for example your friends have begged you to make a DK so you can go do some arenas with it), but other than that i completely disagree with the people who say the game starts at 80.
Defeating the LK may not equal bashing a clefthoof on the head, but it's amusement all the same, just a different kind.
I really look forward to Cata, where my super-powerful main can become a scrub again. Hopefully i won't be able to fly untill lvl 85, just like the begining of WotLK.
Post by
207044
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Post by
pezz
but other than that i completely disagree with the people who say the game starts at 80.
Which is absolutely fine, and I'd never, ever ask Blizzard to scrap the leveling process or stop devoting dev time to it, because a lot of people like it and I have no problem with people doing things that they like in this game. I just cannot fathom why those of us who think the game does start at 80 are told we're S.O.L., when they were willing to solve the 'people playing aspects of the game they really don't like because they have to' problem with PvErs doing PvP for half decent weapons in TBC. If that was a problem then, I don't know why this much more obvious case of massive amounts of the player base stuck playing content they don't like isn't a problem now.
Post by
24996
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Post by
113229
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Post by
lonewarrior
meh...it's still about gear whether you enjoy leveling or not. Heirlooms just make having the proper level gear a bit easier. If you don't use them...fine..but then one has to assume either you had the right gear to be in ZF or you didn't. By the comments of the healer and dps..you didn't.
When I was leveling my toon..I would enter BG's and dungeons where people were wearing gear that was more suitable for a Halloween costume party. I didn't complain vocally..I just maintain my politeness and decided to stay or leave. Inevitably..such a weak ink was destined to squash any chances of success.
You have a right to spend your time as you see fit..but not the time of someone else.
If you just enjoy leveling then stay with questing..it's relaxing. If you need to run dungeons then arrange to run it with friends. If your going to que LFG then expect to run into people with a different agenda and not all of them mature.
Post by
575785
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Post by
Lorkin
I know that when I queue up for LFD on my Xth alt toon that I want to spend the next hour running through those mid 40's dungeons.
/sarcasm off.
Seriously the majority of folks running around in heirlooms have "been there done that" and just want to finish the stupid run and move on. We'd prefer not to sit there while you figure out what threat is and why people keep telling you to wear a shield. For F's sake at least queue up as dps so we can have an experienced tank vs waiting on you to figure out where in Azeroth you happen to be at the moment.
Sure it maybe fun for you to level your FIRST alt, but have you ever thought about the time you're wasting for people on their 10th alt? If you really are hellbent on continuing your "slow roll" through LFD at least macro in a warning. Something like the following:
Sorry to inform you that I will be taking my sweet arse time running through what would take a normal group 20 mins. but will probably take us 60 mins. This is my first toon where I have no experience but decided to check the tank box for the instant queue because I'm stellar and like to make a point to piss of veteran players. That or I don't really believe in heirloom items because I'm a firm believer that having 18 days /played time by the time I hit 80 means that I will be amazing at my class because I've technically experienced it all.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Varaconn
Well, to be honest, unless they got the BoA gear with Champion seals, they wasted alot of potential time and money running heroics for heirlooms.
Are you implying that the time saved from using heirlooms is less than the time spent acquiring them? Assuming a generous 8 days /played until 80 (I believe my last 80 was just over 6 days /played, with heirloom shoulders and lots of time spent goofing around at lower levels,) you're looking at about 38 hours saved by your heirlooms.
Post by
Lorkin
That's crap. There are too many new players to expect a pre-Northrend run to be less than 40 minutes.
I'm guessing you haven't leveled a new toon since the LFD system was out.
Here
are
a
few
examples
of
less
than
30
min
runs.
Experience is the best teacher. I tanked 1-70 when I leveled my paladin (before Wrath) and did so again with my warrior and because of that I learned which abilities are good for single target aggro, which are good for AoE, how to be situationally aware and watch for pats and keep an eye on healer mana, and how to pace the group properly.
Experience is, but I'd argue that you get the majority of that experience tanking between 70-80. Does it matter that you do it before you even get the majority of your skills? I mean you can't get Hammer of the Righteous, Thundershock, etc until you hit level 60.
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