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Draenei Druids
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Post by
Adamsm
I'm not exactly up on my lore as much as I'd like, but why can't a human be a shaman?
Well, because they are greedy, self-centered, and don't pay attention to the world around them... except I also just described Goblins so... yeah....
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Dear Lolotea,...okay, I don't start these things, I keep a cool head unless someone's
really
out of line...why do I always end up being the target?
I seriously doubt there is some sort of anti-Draenei agenda by the developers - the race was implemented and that is that, they need to support it."Need to" doesn't mean "are."
Trolls endured that for a long time until the taking of Echo Isles - they were just not supported in the development of its race. (Which, I must add, is a pretty new thing altogether - only with phasing has the game become more cinematic in that aspect.)And I'm at least somewhat
glad
that the other Tall Blues are finally getting some attention.
I think that the lack of any new classes for Draenei is due to the developers wanting to keep them as a pure and righteous race.That doesn't follow.
Its selection of classes is mostly due to all of them being noble: paladins and priests were the obvious additions, magi, warriors and hunters can be honorable, and shaman was a logistic choice more than anything.
The classes they can't be are rogues, druids and warlocks.So...druids can't be noble?
Adding 'locks is out of the question (although the Eredar contingent should know a trick or two about the subject); rogues go against the nobility part, and druids are annoying to code because it requires models for each form, which the designers don't really fancy doing.Rogues, again, could be military scouts that are "rogues" for game mechanics purposes only. ("Scout" implies reconnoitering around and not being seen, which is what
rogues
do. Hunters are less scouts than snipers.)
As for druids and difficult coding...that didn't stop the designers when it came to worgen or trolls.
They already have quite a selection of classes, though. Humans have many options because they are an extremely popular choice - racials aside -, and Blood Elves are so in the East. Trolls have many options - well, who knows why? I suppose because they want to boost their numbers, Dwarves are getting their fair share of new entries with the addition of shaman to their repertoire.So...draenei don't rate a new class, despite the fact that they have a function gap, because they've got a good selection. But yet, all of these races with selections that are as good or better
do
rate new classes? That makes no sense.
Two notes:
1) Thank you for your support for the Trolladin cause. I would never cancel my subscription again if that were an option.I'm inclined to agree. Provided they rode golden raptors with voodoo-mask barding, anyway.
2) I don't mind the existence of Draenei as much as the whitewashing of their blame for the corruption of Sargeras. If they were this holy
in spite of
(or even
because
) carrying the burden for creating the Burning Legion, if they at least had that weight upon their shoulders, I would believe them to be a more interesting race.Wait,
what
? The eredar as detailed previously were irredeemable. They were a race of one-dimensional card-carrying villains.
The retcon actually adds the implication that Kil'jaeden has become such an adept...well, deceiver...that he's taken credit for corrupting a near-deific being
and people buy it
.
As they stand, all I can see is a product aimed at an specific target market.That's about how I feel about worgen.
3) Hunters are scouts. Rogues are assassins. Draenei CAN be assassins, but allowing players to roll one would contradict with their model.See above.
4) Updating models is the best idea they could have to improve faction balance, but it's the least they want to do... they really hate making new models.That's called laziness, and it should not be condoned.
Why is this Farseer trololtea always trolled lol.Nice personal attack. Too bad you're in no position to be calling anyone, especially me, a troll.
Unless, of course, you're referring to my mage, who is indeed a proud Darkspear monessa.
All races will eventually have access to every class. Blizzard is clearly moving in that direction, and they are using Cataclysm to already lay the groundwork.So...should I begin collecting ugly souvenir mugs? When draenei/tauren warlocks and Forsaken druids happen, I'm going to have to go through a few of them. (Should dig up my sledgehammer and my welder's mask, while I'm at it.)
For example, there are two worgen shaman who will play a part in Ashenvale. So do not be surprised when draenei druids and draenei warlocks eventually come around. It is not a matter of if, but when. Some may not be a fan of the idea of draenei warlocks, but as others have said in regards to draenei druids, the lore progresses; it is not stagnant. I do not particularly care either way for draenei warlocks, but I do think it is ridiculous to "play Blizzard," so to speak, by going around saying what classes a race can NEVER be when the truth of the matter is that the lore itself is quite flexible. If Blizzard came out and said, "Let there be Forsaken Druids," there would be Forsaken Druids, end of discussion. I'm not saying that it will never happen.
I'm saying I don't
like
the idea of the hooves-and-tails set getting mucked up with warlock. It's bad enough that dwarves and trolls are getting that treatment. Hence, wanton cruelty to cheap ceramic.
I hope that draenei do see more love, but Blizzard decided not to expand the class list for draenei.Which leaves the Alliance one combo short on the Horde. And since draenei are the only race left out of the loop, this supports the theory that they're being singled out.
Could they have been given druids? Most definitely yes. But Blizzard likes to keep the druid class more exclusive than their other classes, and in the interest of the druid's thematic quality of "balance," likes to maintain an Alliance-to-Horde balance of druids.And again: leaving a race entirely out of the loop should be a bigger no-no than making a class less "exclusive" or imbalancing a ratio. It's a matter of professionalism.
And Blizzard felt that worgen druids fit better with the direction they planned to take worgen lore.Let's just say that anyone who likes the new worgen lore has no business
ever
complaining about the implementation of draenei again.
So that leaves draenei rogues and warlocks. Honestly, both would have been fine for whatever lore reason Blizzard whims to be. Yet Blizzard decided that they were not comfortable with either option at this point in time. It would be nice to get further explanation from Blizzard.Their explanation is "we just didn't want to." Seriously.
Er... yeah sorry... screwed up there, should only be 11; everyone but Gnomes are hunters.I don't even like gnomes, but I think that gnome hunters should be
among
the next round of combos added. (Along with some sort of stealth draeninja...hopefully druid, but I'll settle for rogue if the explanation works.)
Edit: And the Shaman ratio is 2:4... /sigh, hate when I look things over too fast.The paladin ratio is 3:2. As I recall, there was some statement back around BC launch in regards to those remaining congruent from now on (therefore, new paladins for Horde and Alliance, but new shaman for Alliance
only
in that expansion). And now, they're breaking that again.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
awarewolf
I'm not exactly up on my lore as much as I'd like, but why can't a human be a shaman?
Well, because they are greedy, self-centered, and don't pay attention to the world around them... except I also just described Goblins so... yeah....
I buy the Goblins "Elementals can be customers too" vision more than a Human vision that would be akin to "The elements can be conquered."
Yeah thats why I'm not a big fan of classes being blocked for certain races. In a way, it's a gross generalization. You mean to tell me ALL humans are too industrial to pay any attention to the elements of the earth, or communicate with the great spirit and their ancestors?
Not a big deal personally, not even sure I'd play one. Just sayin. :)
captcha: character zone
Hah, cool.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Yeah thats why I'm not a big fan of classes being blocked for certain races. In a way, it's a gross generalization. You mean to tell me ALL humans are too industrial to pay any attention to the elements of the earth, or communicate with the great spirit and their ancestors?I've got a short list of race/class combinations that I'd consider inappropriate. And when I say "inappropriate," I mean "if they happened, I'd go outside and destroy a bunch of ugly ten-cent souvenir mugs," not "if they happened, I'd quit WoW immediately."
Let's just say that draenei warlocks are on the list, but (*glances around warily*) tauren rogues are
not
.
Post by
Santillan
This may be personal inclination, but I think "we were the most evil but we have seen the light thanks to the N'aru" sounds better than "we are so sick holy except for three of us."
It would have given them an angle to bridge them with the orcs. When it was retconned, I was disappointed about the missed opportunities.
I wouldn't mind most combos except Druids being given wantonly.
Draenei Warlocks can be justified as a "know your enemy" strategy -- they believe that a select few should be granted control over the demonic arts in an effort to learn how to subdue them blah blah... in the end, they did accept Draenei Death Knights, didn't they?
Draenei Locks makes more sense than Orc Locks in the first place.
Back to the matter at hand, Draenei Rogues are still a no-no for the same reason as Tauren Rogues. They just don't feel part of the product they sell, and yes, that is justification enough not to add a class
I know they are missing a stealth component, but I don't believe that is too much a matter in any case. Eventually, they are going to have more budget to request Druid form models. (I still don't know why they haven't started making more anthropomorphic forms, they would be easier to make.)
And I think this race/combo balance concern is not important, other than to quell those saying Blizz favors one side over the other... it is not going to create a population imbalance or whatever.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
This may be personal inclination, but I think "we were the most evil but we have seen the light thanks to the N'aru" sounds better than "we are so sick holy except for three of us."Except neither of the above is how it is at all. Draenei are the last uncorrupted remnant of a race of which two-thirds became demons.
It would have given them an angle to bridge them with the orcs. When it was retconned, I was disappointed about the missed opportunities.The retcon had to happen for
any
opportunities to exist, at all.
I wouldn't mind most combos except Druids being given wantonly.Read
this
. And there's also the fact that it'd make marginally more sense than rogue (as it makes the hoof argument—which is hardly valid to begin with—a complete non-issue, and nulls any questions of honor in the process) and a
hell
of a lot more sense than warlock.
Draenei Warlocks can be justified as a "know your enemy" strategy -- they believe that a select few should be granted control over the demonic arts in an effort to learn how to subdue them blah blah... in the end, they did accept Draenei Death Knights, didn't they?
Draenei Locks makes more sense than Orc Locks in the first place.Does the fact that orcs have historically had warlocks for some time now, while draenei (unless one counts man'ari eredar as such) have actively avoided messing with fel magic, mean anything to you?
And no, the death knight comparison doesn't work. Death knights are those who died, were resurrected as some kind of weird undead, were mind-controlled, and are trying to redeem themselves while irrevocably altered. Warlocks are those who willingly dabble in fel magic for the sake of power.
Back to the matter at hand, Draenei Rogues are still a no-no for the same reason as Tauren Rogues. They just don't feel part of the product they sell, and yes, that is justification enough not to add a classSo...that's justification enough not to add rogues, but you still think
warlock
would work?
Let me explain the difference: Yes, one
can
argue that rogues are assassins. However, one
can't
argue that warlocks
aren't
demon-summoners.
I know they are missing a stealth component, but I don't believe that is too much a matter in any case.So...why do blood elves need warrior again?
Post by
Santillan
I think the retcon would have happened in a way that did not exonerate the Eredar completely.
I've never mentioned the ridiculous Hooves Retort. DONT STRAWMAN ME BRO.
I could continue counter-argumenting, but bottom line is they don't need a new class. They add new classes when it seems relatively effortless to make the logic jump towards them, or when the game begged for a new possiblity to roll to expand the race choice component.
Draenei are not in a bad state, regarding class choice. I am sure Blizz would not have minded to give them Druids if the models were not part of the equation.
They don't need another class, and even if they don't have the whooping 9 possibilities Trolls have, they still have their own appeal and you can be sure that there will be more Draenei than Trolls around.
That is not justification not to make more Draenei-centric quests and expand their lore. I was very disappointed not to see anything on the topic on WOTLK, even if I don't like Draenei to start with.
But that is another topic altogether.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I think the retcon would have happened in a way that did not exonerate the Eredar completely. Considering that at least two-thirds of the race leaped at an offer of power without thinking twice about it—despite the fact that one of their leaders was actively warning the other two—I'd say that they're
not
completely exonerated. Especially considering that Draenor wasn't the first inhabited world they stopped at, and that Kil'jaeden was nuking any planet that he found so much as a hoofprint on.
I've never mentioned the ridiculous Hooves Retort. DONT STRAWMAN ME BRO. I didn't say that you did. I said that it was completely invalidated if they didn't
have
hooves when they stealthed, merely because someone is bound to use it sooner or later.
I could continue counter-argumenting, but bottom line is they don't need a new class.1) No stealth.
2) Blood. Elf. Warriors.
Draenei are not in a bad state, regarding class choice.Humans and blood elves are better off, always have been, and will be even more so.
I am sure Blizz would not have minded to give them Druids if the models were not part of the equation.So...you're condoning laziness on Blizzard's part.
They don't need another classThey "need" druid or rogue more than humans "need" hunter or blood elves "need" warrior. But yet, those two combos are being added.
and even if they don't have the whooping 9 possibilities Trolls have, they still have their own appeal and you can be sure that there will be more Draenei than Trolls around.So...draenei rate a new class less than trolls do, because they're more popular than trolls...but rate one less than humans and blood elves do, because those races are more popular than draenei? That makes no sense.
...are you just white-knighting Blizzard's bad decision?
That is not justification not to make more Draenei-centric quests and expand their lore. I was very disappointed not to see anything on the topic on WOTLK, even if I don't like Draenei to start with.The lack of a new class is the latest in a string of symptoms.
Post by
Santillan
I am being realistic and expecting a business company to behave like one.
Blood Elf Swordsmen appeared in WC3, so the real question is why weren't there any Warriors upon TBC release? (The answer being obviously "because Blizz wanted them to have all cloth casters because they appeal as a fragile, scholarly race; paladins to faction balance; and rogues and hunters due to demographix).
Why does every race need stealth anyway? It's not like missing a healer, a tank or a DPS. And to be perfectly honest, stealth for druids plays much differently than stealth for rogues.
Once more, I back the idea of Draenei druids, but I consider it unlikely due to money constraints. Blizz other options are Rogues and Warlocks, and the feel of the race goes against adding either. Thus they'll probably get neither. And this is to show that the lack of class is not a symptom of the lore abandonment they received.
My solution is to make less animal-like forms for Draenei (and maybe for Trolls too), so they are easier to model. Imagine a Draenei with lots of chest hair and bear arms as bear form (like an unshifted Druid of the Claw from WC3), or one with long, protruding fangs and cat claws for cat form, instead of having to make a whole new betentacled bear.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I am being realistic and expecting a business company to behave like one.Now, here's the problem with that claim: You're forgetting a little thing called
professionalism
.
Blood Elf Swordsmen appeared in WC3, so the real question is why weren't there any Warriors upon TBC release? (The answer being obviously "because Blizz wanted them to have all cloth casters because they appeal as a fragile, scholarly race; paladins to faction balance; and rogues and hunters due to demographix). Nonetheless, the fact remains that blood elves really don't
need
warrior.
Why does every race need stealth anyway? It's not like missing a healer, a tank or a DPS.And yet, it's convenient. And it's important enough that until BC, every race
had
it in one form or another. (Yes, including tauren.)
And to be perfectly honest, stealth for druids plays much differently than stealth for rogues.But yet, rogue stealth and cat-form prowl serve the same basic purpose. And both come in very handy at times.
Once more, I back the idea of Draenei druids, but I consider it unlikely due to money constraints.So...why give the class to worgen and trolls? Last I checked, they had to build new feral forms for both of the above as it is.
Well, as much "building" as they ever have to do, anyway. Cat and bear forms all use the same wire-frames, regardless of the druid's race.
Blizz other options are Rogues and Warlocks, and the feel of the race goes against adding either. Thus they'll probably get neither. And this is to show that the lack of class is not a symptom of the lore abandonment they received.So...the fact that they're not willing to go to the same effort for draenei that they've already gone to for other races...shows that the lack of a new class is
not
a symptom?
My solution is to make less animal-like forms for Draenei (and maybe for Trolls too), so they are easier to model. Imagine a Draenei with lots of chest hair and bear arms as bear form (like an unshifted Druid of the Claw from WC3), or one with long, protruding fangs and cat claws for cat form, instead of having to make a whole new betentacled bear.Only if tauren, worgen, night elves, and any other subsequent druid races also had to deal with screwy hybrid forms because Blizzard is lazy. (See: wire-frames.)
Post by
Santillan
You should really expand on why you deem that one race needs one class or the other.
Trolls certainly did not need Druids or Warlocks, the same way none of the races
needed
the ones they received (an argument could be made for Gnome healers, because a lot of guilds wanted to be race-exclusive. Please don't try to say some Draenei-only guilds suffer from the lack of a stealth class, because what most race-exclusive guilds need is a Paladin/Shaman/Druid.)
So, why do you think Draenei need stealth so bad it is blatantly unprofessional not to indulge them? Would you consider they would
need
a pet class if they had no hunters? Do Gnomes
need
a mail-wearing class in the same way?
Post by
FarseerLolotea
You should really expand on why you deem that one race needs one class or the other.
Trolls certainly did not need Druids or Warlocks, the same way none of the races
needed
the ones they received (an argument could be made for Gnome healers, because a lot of guilds wanted to be race-exclusive. Please don't try to say some Draenei-only guilds suffer from the lack of a stealth class, because what most race-exclusive guilds need is a Paladin/Shaman/Druid.)I couldn't care less about race-exclusive guilds (although I do think that any single-race raid should be viable).
So, why do you think Draenei need stealth so bad it is blatantly unprofessional not to indulge them?What's "unprofessional" is leaving
one
race entirely out of the loop (and making excuses for doing so). The fact that they're stuck with a function gap (especially when races with no function gaps get new classes) only serves to exacerbate it.
Would you consider they would
need
a pet class if they had no hunters? Do Gnomes
need
a mail-wearing class in the same way?That's not quite the same, although I'm at least somewhat in favor of gnome hunters.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
621970
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I maintain that I'd prefer Draenei Rogues over Druids.
However, I'd rather have non-race locked classes.I'm not against either one, but I think there should be
some
limitations.
Space goat druids... shape shifting into space goat bears/cats.No one was discussing talbuks.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Honestly, if the limitations make sense and aren't infringed upon, sure. However, they've already shown that, for the sake of gameplay, they won't hesitate to introduce another class to a particular race even if it seems to go against pre-established lore. In such a situation, why bother locking races out of certain classes?Granted, night elf magi are screwy. That said, they're not
nearly
as screwy as draenei warlocks would be.
To clarify, night elf magi are a case of a culture reluctantly
re
-adopting disciplines that they once practiced, but eventually renounced. Draenei warlocks would be a case of going entirely against the principles of their culture and taking up something that they're defined by
not
having messed with.
Post by
Santillan
Honestly, if the limitations make sense and aren't infringed upon, sure. However, they've already shown that, for the sake of gameplay, they won't hesitate to introduce another class to a particular race even if it seems to go against pre-established lore. In such a situation, why bother locking races out of certain classes?Granted, night elf magi are screwy. That said, they're not
nearly
as screwy as draenei warlocks would be.
To clarify, night elf magi are a case of a culture reluctantly
re
-adopting disciplines that they once practiced, but eventually renounced. Draenei warlocks would be a case of going entirely against the principles of their culture and taking up something that they're defined by
not
having messed with.
And how do Orc Warlocks make more sense? The existence of the Horde is solely based on the renunciation of demonic practices. Trolls were forbidden to practice the demonic arts as well, and the classes would have reflected such decisions if it were not for faction balance.
Bottom-line is I don't believe what you call a
function gap
is a valid claim. I call it an anecdotal trait, a trivia even.
If I had a choice, I would have given Draenei Druids and given Worgen Paladins (I think it's easier to handwave "oh, yeah, Gilneas had a paladin order too" than "oh, yeah, Gilneas was this tight with Malfurion"), just to prevent Draenei enthusiasts from feeling left aside; but considering the amount of furries that would want to roll Worgen, giving them the possibility to be Druids seems a necessary measure of fanservice.
That being said, in return, I would expect them to bestow Draenei some protagonism. If they fail to do that once more, I will agree they have given them up. Hopefully the developers will notice this and back-up the lack of a new class with expanded lore and conflicts.
Maybe, just maybe, instead of killing a bunch of trolls as usual, we might even get to kill our few share of draenei in an instance. That would be grand.
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