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Official Warlock Cataclysm Thread
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Post by
Barkend
Anyone know a decent DoT-addon that works on the PTR/Beta? Fortexorcist is screwed up. :(
I'm not in the beta, but I heard that no addons works in there. And I'll be not surprised if it's true.
Post by
Fingulfin
They enabled addons at the beginning of September. Just because they are enabled does not mean that all your wrath addons are compatible with cata's new LUA systems though, most addons (especially semi-complex ones) do not function.
Post by
Acabar
Eventhorizon works
Post by
239567
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
On a fight like Malygos where you're attempting to get on discs and you have bunches of adds spread out, you'd be able to spread all of your DoTs around to each and every single mob. There are situations
To the bolded section: The occasions you would fully-DoT an add are actually pretty common. Anub, Gothik, Noth, 4 horseman, and KT in Naxx.
Kologarn, Auriaya, Freya, Hodir, Mimiron, Yogg-saron, and Algalon in ulduar.
Jormungar on Northrend Beasts, Faction Champs, Twin Valkyr, Jaraxxus, and Anub in ToC.
LDW, Lootship, Saurfang, PP, Dreamwalker, Sindy, and LK in ICC.
- Malygos: You won't be able to spread your dots around on every single add just by soul swapping, because glyphed it has a 10 sec cd. Aka it takes too damn long. And unglyphed ... well, it won't be "spreading" if they drop off the original mob now, will it?
- KT: dpsing the adds is bad
I'm not sure on Soul Swap usage for the other bosses, but since I'm not certain I'll leave them out :)
Post by
asakawa
well, i don't think it needs a cooldown.
i don't think soul swap is nearly as good as it sounds, it just allows a very small time saving and use of instants.
OP in PvP? i guess they think so.
The reason for the cooldown is because it would be OP in PvP, and PvE. You could pump out ridiculous amounts of damage just constantly soul swapping with the glyph in large groups of people/mobs, and on boss fights with adds you could essentially never have to reapply the dots. 2 GCDs and you're good, and the rest of your time can be spent filler nuking the boss.
i just wanted to quote this to show what we're discussing here.
those three DoTs don't do enough damage on secondary targets because affliction's output is balanced around 3 stacks of SE and haunt. they've added a cooldown to prevent people putting all three DoTs on lots of (more than just a second) targets and any time you have all those targets in a PvE setting you're looking at mobs that likely won't live long enough for the DoTs to be efficient and mobs that are much more effectively dealt with by using seed.
i'm not saying there aren't times where saving a GCD is a good thing. where you would cast all three DoTs on more than 2 targets but they ARE in fact rare.
going through all the encounters you mention, you're saying that no cooldown on soul swap would be OP in those fights? or that the ability to save 1 GCD when casting all DoTs on more than 2 targets would make affliction warlocks overly strong?
blood beasts - dreadful. wasting GCDs on the boss then more on mobs you never put all three DoTs on anyway. they need to go down quickly.
gothik - lol
noth - no
4H - on more than just a secondary target within 10 seconds? no
KT - no
Auriaya - no
hodir - no
algalon - no
yogg - maybe but probably not if you're doing your job properly
northrend beasts - there's only two of them
twins - only two
jaraxxus - you're not going to put DoTs on the infernals just the mistresses so no.
LDW - no
PP - only a second target
sindy - no
LK - no
all i'm looking at is fights where there is more than just a second target that needs fully DoTing in less than 10seconds.
the ones you mention which a no cooldown SS might help:
anub(naxx), anub(ToC), kolo, mimiron (P4).
the fights where it's REALLY good:
lootship (lol) and faction champs. faction champs is the only fight in the whole of wrath where soul swap would have been a serious advantage. it still wouldn't have been as great an advantage as DKs had since they spread their diseases with a single cooldown and then were free to single target the rest of the time.
this is becoming a ridiculously long post but i hope i'm making my point.
the idea that SS with no cooldown would be OP in end-game PvE is just not true.
Post by
LookOut
Oops my bad, the new posts made me forget what we were actually discussing ><
Post by
asakawa
i do have to make a correction though. i was talking about 2/3 of a GCD thnking that banes/curses still have an innate lower GCD for affliction specced warlocks. from all i can tell that idea has been reverted... possibly quite some time ago >.<
personally i don't think it weakens my point at all but it needed pointing out.
Post by
lucius
Still there.
Soul swap has its uses, and you can't discount the additional damage. The danger of the spell is in balancing its PVE vs PVP use, obviously.
Post by
asakawa
aha! thanks. i couldn't find it mentioned in the mastery text as it used to be and also couldn't confirm it on the (very laggy) PTR.
Soul swap has its usesno doubt!
and you can't discount the additional damage. ah but i do. the additional damage comes in the form of a maximum 2/3 GCD which only diminishes with more haste (max 1 seconds, min 0.5 seconds).
this is not an OP damage increase given the incredibly narrow usefulness and small gains.
if all we're being offered is a small increase in DPCT in relatively rare circumstances then i'll take it but this whole discussion came about when the glyph got nerfed. i was disputing the need for that - at least in PvE.
The danger of the spell is in balancing its PVE vs PVP use, obviously. this i do agree with. in PvP where movement is important and there's much less reliance on haunt and SE anyway i see that it's quite strong. i'm not a competent enough PvPer to discuss this in depth.
it just smacks of throwing the baby out with the bath water. (that may be a very english phrase that doesn't travel well ^_^)
Post by
239567
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
Also, why are you not dpsing adds in P1 on KT? Soul Swap could very easily be used to swap your dots between banshees and/or aboms.
Was thinking about the adds in P3, my bad. But still (and this may sound naive), ranged should be on skeletons (which die very fast) and banshees (which spawn less often than abominations iirc). It's the melee's job to handle the abominations. You don't wanna make them unemployed now, do you? :p
Having said that, I don't see soul swap being useful, even in P1. If everyone is doing their job, dots hardly get any time to tick. But then again, I've never done it as affli, so maybe I'm wrong (again)
Post by
asakawa
I was simply noting the amount of encounters where soul swap would save you a GCD and a cast time that you would use DoTs instead of SoC. I realize that not all of those encounters have multiple adds that would be helped by the glyph not adding a CD, and never suggested they would.
the fact that swap will occasionally save some cast time has never been in question. your list wasn't relevant to the discussion that was taking place but nor did it actually make your own point very well. looking at all the encounters in this expansion the number where soul swap will even save occasional GCDs is incredibly low.
it makes swap look even worse than BoH for which most people are struggling to see a great use.
Also, why are you not dpsing adds in P1 on KT? Soul Swap could very easily be used to swap your dots between banshees and/or aboms.
they don't livelong enough to warrant all your DoTs.
They still have it via a talent in the 2nd to last tier atm.this has been covered, thanks.
Soul Swap is 2 GCD(2s capped haste 3sec no haste) to place your dots on another mob without removing the first set of DoTs. None soul swapping it'd take 3sec capped haste, 4.5sec no haste to apply the DoTs. thats a difference of 1 GCD completely, not 2/3. I have no idea where you're getting that number. i admit i'm hoping for a fix to talents/glyphs that reduce the GCD to also let them eat into the "minimum" GCD
if a fix like that never happens then we're in a situation where you gain 2/3 of a GCD at zero haste and a full GCD at instant capped haste levels.
You also have to remember the Glyph Makes it so that you can refresh all of your DoTs on the move as long as there's an add.No more having to stand and cast UA. On a hypothetical fight like Heigan or Halion with adds during those high movement phases, that'd be a god send.
this i really disagree with.
the boss should be getting the refreshes on corruption just fine so you're swapping DoTs onto and add then from the add back to the boss to refresh 2 DoTs on the boss?
this is very bad use of your time.
there may be clever uses of swap on specific encounters in cataclysm. they may make a fight like heigan with all that constant movement and some adds. this will be a gimmick fight and describing the ability to swap as a god send is getting a bit ridiculous.
I've never done Naxx25 so I'm not sure if there are more Crypt Fiends then, but in Naxx10 if you ever have more than 1 Crypt Fiend up at a time your raids doing something wrong.
yes there are two adds on 25.
Also they may have nerfed it for the same reason they "nerfed" the Prot Paladin rotation. They made it to where they don't feel like they HAVE to keep all of their holy power abilities running. I could very easily see Soul Swapping constantly in fights like faction champs to keep your dps up could become quite taxing rather than entertaining.
again you're looking at the single encounter in the entire expansion and deciding maybe blizz is balancing around that encounter's gimmick?
faction champs is the only fight that would have had us literally spamming swap. if they don't want that to happen in cata they'll design their encounters differently.
my ONLY point through any of this is that soul swap isn't that great in PvE (my only concern).
it will provide a small time saving in a very small number of cases.
it is simply one of those many cases where the PvP practicalities of a spell prevent it from being very useful in PvE.
the fix i would apply is i would give swap the properties of the glyphed spell (doesn't remove DoTs) innately but give it a cast time of 1 second. (basically you need to stand still to cast it). then make a glyph that removes the cast time but removes the DoTs from the primary.
hehe, a PvPer might call that a disastrous nerf to them but they deserve it ^_^
wow, you're not the only one who can "wall of text" - apologies
Post by
Razmortis
Patch 4.0.1 - PTR Build 13156
Destruction
Improved Soul Fire effect now has a 15 sec cooldown, down from 30 sec.
Conflagrate now deals fire damage equal to 60% of your Immolate's periodic damage on the target, down from 100%.
Damn, I was enjoying my 38k conflagrate crits. :/
Post by
239567
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
I'm not describing it as a god-send, simply noting situations where it would be helpful.▼
that'd be a god send.
^_^
This being specifically my main point of contention. In a game where running 8% faster(which is barely noticeable) is considered required because in some fights it might save the raid, Soul Swap is fairly potent.
people may consider it required but they're wrong and/or exaggerating.
the point is that when haunt got added in with wrath we all saw it and said "OMG, this is crazy-overpowered. it increases our DoTs by 20% and heals us?"
a new expansion is coming out again and affliction gets a nice new ability again. what do we get? a slight saving in rare cases... umm, really? that it?
we now realise that they added it but they also balanced the entire spec around it. it was being specifically added not to increase our damage but to limit our DoTs to only being potent on single targets (since haunt can only be applied to one target at a time).
this is the point where they can make things powerful and fun because they're also looking at numbers.
the times when it is useful really IS rare and your list really didn't demonstrate that it wasn't. yes lots of fights have adds. patchwerk's are rare. however, those adds are more often the "bone spike" variety than the "twin valks" type.
we could actually be having a very similar discussion about BoH which is similarly strong in a similarly small number of encounters and generally very weak.
Post by
USMCDiablo
I get a strange feeling it'll be like my Shadowfury spec. I'll use a spec with bane of havoc for one fight in a raid where it's awesome and use my main spec for everything else.
Post by
asakawa
quick addition before bed:
GC just posted a small response to some lock concerns over conflag saying
We added the dot back when the burst was too high, but it was always kind of weird to consume a dot to cause a dot, and we figured now was a great time to fix that.
Go hop on the PTR. Cast Conflag. You should be happy.
mysterious stuff. i'll be interested to hear what has actually changed.
also on DL > SB:
Again, in this case, my information is more up to date, and I predict you'll be using Shadow Bolt.
Post by
Acabar
I kind of liked using Drain Life :(
Post by
fuhrerschein
I kind of liked using Drain Life :(
priest forums are that way bro...gtfo of my warlock forums /rawr
;-)
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