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The Strong, fastest and wisest races in Warcraft?
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Post by
FarseerLolotea
Perhaps that was more directed at beings such as Night Elves and possibly Titans, provided they have children, instead of spiritual entities like the Gods, which don't manifest in the physical plane?Most of the Titans look to be in their prime or middle-aged, as opposed to "just out of adolescence."
Aaaand my mistake here. I've manage to misread dfire's entire post so I'll respond appropriately now:
Anyways, the draenei saw their mistake and tried (never did the draenei questline so I'm not sure if they succeded) to help, few other races wouldn't have done the same and it is certainly not an example that denotes the draenei from the rest of the playable races in the wise plane.However, it kind of contradicts the entire "self-righteousness" comment.
And why would they be less likely to need guidance? Because they are the most lived?
Surely, perhaps one of the best qualities of our spacesmurfs is the fact that they can really ''let go'', but they need guidance to do so don't they? If the entire race was wise, that would be a natural and irritating (to me if I played a draenei =p) social phenomenom.
Of course, the Draenei are still above other races when it comes to forgiving, but even when they do forgive, its not clear that they do it because they are told to or if they have a natural tendency to do so. One might always believe in the latter, after all, their belief in the Light certainly include Forgiveness, however, if their faith was
completely
above their personal feelings, the Draenei would get along perfectly well with the Scryers and the Blood Knights,
even
when the blood elves hurt M'uru.
So the Draenic tendency to forgiveness, compassion and more is simply something that was included in the tenets of the Holy Light and they try to live up with, just like all other Light worshipping race. And, although they are certainly the most devout, they are certainly not ''up there'' with their enlightened Prophet Velen.Look at it this way: Velen, even being..well,
who he is
, will take advice from others (and yes, I include other draenei under that heading).
Rise of the Horde
gives a good example or two.
So, I said all that (and hopefully didn't mess with my wording) simply to ask a few questions: Why does following (and still unable to do so fully, which I don't expect from any mundane race at all) the tenets of the Holy Light equal to Wisdom? After all, their moral system is its principles.
Why can't true Wisdom also come from faiths such as Nature worship, something that Tauren and Night Elves do so fully and a few thalassian elves do so partially? Why not Dragon Cults? Why not Titan cults? Why not Loa worship?
If the Draenei need orientation to uphold the tenets of Forgiveness and Compassion, why are they anymore wise than other lesser races? Did they ever, as a race, show a greater capacity for insight? For reading others' cultures and thoughs easily?
Or are they equal to other races?The draenei seem to do a better job of practicing what they preach, as it were, than the other Light-following races. They also seem to do so more intuitively. And as far as knowledge goes, they're one of the few—if not the only—race that sees no conflict between the Light and the arcane (possibly on account of having kept them in balance for the last 25k years).
As for the nature-revering races, I believe I actually
listed
the tauren as a contender. They've got fewer major screw-ups to their credit than
night
elves. In fact, I'd almost go so far as to say that the tauren race's single
biggest
screw-up is putting up with the Grimtotems for as long as they have.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
So, being a bit ahead on Light worshipping and the way they manage their faith makes them wise?...no. That's not what I said.
You didn't really answer my question:Yes, I did.
The Draenei moral system is the Holy Light, yet they aren't perfect nor enlightened beings: their faith still loses some ground to their feelings, and, at times, that conflict ends up with the emotions winning and virtue put in a second plane. The best examples of draenic wisdom comes from they
being told
to play nice and not to let their feelings take a hold of them,
just like any other race
they need guidance. Why, exactly, can the Draenei be considered wiser than other races?
And why are the tenets of the Holy Light equal to Wisdom? After all, they are what guide the draenei's actions and thoughs.*sigh* How many times do I, and others, have to explain this?
Again: they're insightful enough all on their own. But they also seem to know their own limitations enough to know when to ask for help. (And seem to have enough insight into the limitations of others as to know when to
offer
help, as evidenced by Almonen's pep talk in Shattrath.)
As far as I know, in more modern lore, there really isn't a conflict between Arcane and Light. Its just that, say, humans are more wary when dealing with the Arcane as its much more susceptible to corruption than the Light.If you're implying that they're "more wary" than draenei, the implication—if anything—is that it's the other way around. The draenei (with the possible exception of the Auchenai) seem to have entirely dodged the corrupting aspect of arcane studies.
In fact, the only example of such thing that I can remember is a Paladin, somewhere, saying that mages go to
Hell
(which even exists in the Warcraft universe?) when they die.Knaak's fail aside? The idea that arcane magic corrupts has been in the setting for a
long
time now.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
You know what?
It's pretty obvious by now that you don't
like
draenei, and the idea of them being one of the "wisest" races galls you. So, no matter what I come up with, or what Adams or DFire might come up with, you're just going to come back with "nuh-uh!" and accuse us of not answering your questions.
Post by
HiVolt
Playables:
Strength:
Easily the Tauren. The fact that they carry #$%^ing trees as weapons should be evidence to that.
Speed:
Probably either the Night/Blood Elves or the Trolls. Also, the Tauren are supposed to be able to move pretty quickly on the plains.
Wisdom:
Draenei, easily. Even the Night Elves haven't been around as long as they have.
Nonplayable:
Strength:
Ogres or Vrykul. Being that they're pretty well the same size, they probably have about the same strength.
Speed:
The Pandaren are supposedly pretty fast when they get down and run on all fours, but it's still probably not as fast as an elf or a troll overland... I guess it would depend on the terrain. Naga in the water, of course.
Wisdom:
Pandaren, easily. They had the sense to GTFO once the Night Elves started using Arcane magic, and they've had sense enough not to mix themselves up in the Horde/Alliance feud. That seems very wise.
Post by
Vaeku
I'd like an appropriate answer to my question. I've asked why the Draenei can be considered wiser than other races, specially when they are still not as enlightened as they may seem and you've answered with a: ''because they are''. Can you show me an example of them being more insightful than other races? Because I really don't consider, ''knowing when to ask for help and when to offer it'' such an amazing display of wisdom that is above others.
It's because it's hard to put into words. But let's see...
The history of the draenei shows us that they are wiser than any other playable race. They rejected Sargeras' "gift" (and part of that was due to Velen, but there were plenty of eredar who thought Velen was crazy and went ahead with KJ and Archimonde) as Velen and the eredar knew that there was something not quite right. They also knew that the Naaru could be trusted. They have the perseverance to keep running from and fighting the Burning Legion, and based this solely on the potential of finding the Army of the Light (and with Azeroth, they might have finally found the army).
They realize that just because a select few of a race tried to exterminate them, doesn't mean that the whole race is like that. This is mainly with the blood elves. Now, they are probably still wary of the blood elves and the orcs, because of the past history (I mean, even if you were extremely wise, would you completely, 100% trust a race that tried to exterminate you?). But they know that the blood elves are trying to make amends (the whole Sunwell incident), and I suppose with the orcs too (they aren't killing the draenei at first glance anymore).
In addition, we don't have a whole lot of examples of draenei wisdom because there AREN'T a lot. That doesn't mean they aren't wise, but it's more because Blizzard has largely ignored the draenei after TBC and haven't given them a whole lot of lore.
seem to have entirely dodged the corrupting aspect of arcane studies.
Really? o.o, where?
Um... Let's see... Maybe because they've been practicing magic since long before the night elves existed, and haven't become corrupted? (The Man'ari Eredar weren't corrupted from using arcane magic, but from Sargeras) Speculation points to the Naaru influence and the Light is what's keeping them from being corrupted like what happened with Azerothian races. Although maybe it's just in their DNA that they are resistant to the corruption.
If you're implying that they're "more wary" than draenei
I'm not. All I said is that the human society, as an example, shows more care when dealing with Arcane magic than with the Light due to its vulnerability to corruption. I didn't mention the draenei in that phrase.
The Light is corrupting in its own way. Look at the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught/Whatever. (Yes, I'm aware that the Crusade was led by a dreadlord, but members of the Crusade still wielded the Light) Anyhow, I wouldn't say the humans have shown more care with arcane magic. Sure, they're not flinging spells around like the Highborne, but they're still a lot more reckless than the draenei.
And the tauren are a definite contender as one of the wisest races. But their biggest failure in that regard is putting up with the Grimtotems. If a group of draenei did this, they would have been kicked out of draenei society (and look, it already happened with the Auchenai). The tauren are TOO accepting.
You know what?
It's pretty obvious by now that you don't
like
draenei, and the idea of them being one of the "wisest" races galls you. So, no matter what I come up with, or what Adams or DFire might come up with, you're just going to come back with "nuh-uh!" and accuse us of not answering your questions.
Agreed.
Post by
469682
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Persen
There are lizards with the ability to regenerate their tail, at least partially. A lot of people, including children, know this. So regeneration are not entirely limited to shutting wounds and reattaching limbs...
And for strongest: Ogre vs. Vrykul, one should consider that the vrykul are much more athletic than the ogres, even though ogres may be physically larger and heavier.
Post by
Adamsm
There are lizards with the ability to regenerate their tail, at least partially. A lot of people, including children, know this. So regeneration are not entirely limited to shutting wounds and reattaching limbs...
Aye, I think the Troll regeneration is suppose to be a nod towards lizards.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
It's because it's hard to put into words. But let's see...
The history of the draenei shows us that they are wiser than any other playable race. They rejected Sargeras' "gift" (and part of that was due to Velen, but there were plenty of eredar who thought Velen was crazy and went ahead with KJ and Archimonde) as Velen and the eredar knew that there was something not quite right. They also knew that the Naaru could be trusted. They have the perseverance to keep running from and fighting the Burning Legion, and based this solely on the potential of finding the Army of the Light (and with Azeroth, they might have finally found the army).
They realize that just because a select few of a race tried to exterminate them, doesn't mean that the whole race is like that. This is mainly with the blood elves. Now, they are probably still wary of the blood elves and the orcs, because of the past history (I mean, even if you were extremely wise, would you completely, 100% trust a race that tried to exterminate you?). But they know that the blood elves are trying to make amends (the whole Sunwell incident), and I suppose with the orcs too (they aren't killing the draenei at first glance anymore).Aha. I see where my error was—in presuming that Delterius was familiar with the absolute
basics
of draenei lore.
In addition, we don't have a whole lot of examples of draenei wisdom because there AREN'T a lot. That doesn't mean they aren't wise, but it's more because Blizzard has largely ignored the draenei after TBC and haven't given them a whole lot of lore.Indeed. I maintain that Blizzard is listening to individuals who should have ragequit after BC.
Um... Let's see... Maybe because they've been practicing magic since long before the night elves existed, and haven't become corrupted? (The Man'ari Eredar weren't corrupted from using arcane magic, but from Sargeras) Speculation points to the Naaru influence and the Light is what's keeping them from being corrupted like what happened with Azerothian races. Although maybe it's just in their DNA that they are resistant to the corruption.Hard to say. It would, as you have hinted, require Blizzard to stop ignoring the race.
The Light is corrupting in its own way. Look at the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught/Whatever. (Yes, I'm aware that the Crusade was led by a dreadlord, but members of the Crusade still wielded the Light) Anyhow, I wouldn't say the humans have shown more care with arcane magic. Sure, they're not flinging spells around like the Highborne, but they're still a lot more reckless than the draenei.The Scarlet Crusade are 4e paladins, perhaps? (Sorry, couldn't resist...)
And the tauren are a definite contender as one of the wisest races. But their biggest failure in that regard is putting up with the Grimtotems. If a group of draenei did this, they would have been kicked out of draenei society (and look, it already happened with the Auchenai). The tauren are TOO accepting.Indeed, and I believe that I've said as much. However, that's still fewer major screwups on the part of the tauren than on that of the elves.
Actually, I once had a Draenei main.If you say so.
However, the content of your posts indicates that you're not fond of the race. And my other point remains.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
If the Draenei's Light makes them immune to Arcane magic, then how come they can still be turned into Man'ari?That's Fel corruption though, and technically, any and all who were going to go that route, have already done so; look at the final Aldor quest in Netherstorm to take down the Big Man'ari Eredar there: The Demon corrupts one of the 'pinnacles' of the Vindicators into a monster who attempts to kill his friends(and the player), and the leader of Aldor shows up to assist with taking him down... and the guy still goes in for a heroic sacrifice at the end as he threw off the torture and corruption.
Again though; no entire race is over all wise, and the Draenei are up there because they have literally seen it all, and survived it all. Does that mean that sometimes they make bad choices? Of course. Does that mean they can't learn from said mistakes? Of course not. Yes, the original Draenei on Draenor had a problem with the 'lesser' beings, and treated the Orcs as children and younger siblings... but after the War, they stopped thinking like that; for what little lore we got for them during BC, you didn't see the Draenei race repeating that mistake; they want to help and be as equals among their new found allies, and form the Army of Light(which will include the Horde at some point).
They aren't perfect, but they are wise in the way they treat the others, a trait they do share with the Tauren.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I've never thought like that Delt heh; I just see the Draenei as the wisest because of what they experience over the last 25 thousand years.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
And of course I'll keep coming up with reasons why my belief is right and yours isn't. Wow...and you've accused
me
of "arrogance."Which is a super dose of Arcane corruption. Fel magic is
itself
a corruption of arcane magic, not simply "powered-up" arcane.
So, what I've been trying to do in the last few thousands of written words was to break this belief that the entire Draenei race is enlightened, good and essentially not a lesser race at all.Wasn't this entire thread supposed to be about cultural averages?
I've never thought like that Delt heh; I just see the Draenei as the wisest because of what they experience over the last 25 thousand years.If you go by cultural averages (which is what I've inferred here), yes.
Post by
Vaeku
That's Fel corruption though
Which is a super dose of Arcane corruption. There's not really any reason to believe that the Draenei are more resistant to corruption... after all, the only good example we have, the High Elves, are more vulnerable to arcane addiction and corruption after the prolonged use of magic.
Fel magic, according to WoWWiki, is a super dose of arcane corruption PLUS demon blood. My reasoning for the draenei being resistant to arcane corruption (and yet turning into Man'ari) is that (1) it's not fel corruption; and (2) Sargeras specifically targeted the eredar for corruption because he saw that they were powerful mages.
So, what I've been trying to do in the last few thousands of written words was to break this belief that the entire Draenei race is enlightened, good and essentially not a lesser race at all.
See below...
Again though; no entire race is over all wise, and the Draenei are up there because they have literally seen it all, and survived it all. Does that mean that sometimes they make bad choices? Of course. Does that mean they can't learn from said mistakes? Of course not. Yes, the original Draenei on Draenor had a problem with the 'lesser' beings, and treated the Orcs as children and younger siblings... but after the War, they stopped thinking like that; for what little lore we got for them during BC, you didn't see the Draenei race repeating that mistake; they want to help and be as equals among their new found allies, and form the Army of Light(which will include the Horde at some point).
They aren't perfect, but they are wise in the way they treat the others, a trait they do share with the Tauren.
This is what I was trying to say, why the draenei could be considered the wisest of the playable races.
But anyways, eneralizing is really foolish, but this is essentially what this thread is about (because like I said with my last point, if we can't call the draenei the wisest because not all of them are wise, then we can't call the tauren the strongest or the elves the fastest because not all of them are that strong or that fast.
The point I'm trying to make is that we're looking for which of the races is the wisest, etc. And from what evidence we have, the Draenei seem to be the wisest. Certainly before everything that happened on Draenor, they couldn't be labeled as such. But now, now they've seen what the Burning Legion is truly capable of (corrupting an entire race just to slaughter the draenei).
An example of a draenei NOT being wise is in the starting quests, a draenei exclaims that the blood elves must be wiped off the face of Azeroth. This, of course, takes place earlier in the timeline, before the draenei met the blood elves and realized through Velen and the Naaru that not all blood elves followed Kael'thas.
Something that I'm basing a lot of my argument about the draenei's wisdom comes from
this article on WoW.com
.
Anyways, I'm tired and operating on like 4 hours of sleep so I'm going to stop ranting now.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
You could always read the rest of the reply, that part that explains why I'm doing what I am.I read your post. (And accusing me of
not
having done so was rather presumptuous of you). The fact remains that the remainder of that doesn't cancel out your "I'm right and you're wrong."
In terms of corruption and addiction alone and not including the difference in the side effects, Fel magic is indeed a stronger and more prejudicial version of Arcane.As DFire and I have both said, it's not
just
arcane.
For some reason, it felt harsh that it was almost unanimous that the Draenei were the most wise race.Actually, you'll notice that plenty of people have said "elves." And I believe I was the first one to say that tauren were contenders.
Heck, I'd put tauren above elves on that. And here's where I disagree with the article and where I based my argument that the draenei weren't ''All that''.Not every paladin is an old veteran. Even vindicators start out as n00bs. And while level doesn't necessarily equal canonical power, Aldar (at least) being a n00b isn't entirely unbelievable.
Tiras'alan is another matter. But it's likely that he knows just enough to be angry about it, but not the whole story.
As I said above, it just seems that people believe that the Draenei do the above naturally while such seems to be the purity of the level of a certain Prophet.
Of course they seem to call upon forgiveness more often than other races, but just when tensions get to the right point and they need guidance just like the other races. Clearly their age didn't mean much, just taught them a lesson at not being stubborn.A lesson, however, which the majority of races don't seem to have learned.
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