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Holy plate itemisation.
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Post by
108118
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Why can't raid leaders understand that for us to be decent we can't stick to plate?
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nesingwary&cn=Multivitamin
Quit your whining.
On another note, remember that while you can wear mail and plate, shamans can only wear mail. So if you won mail gloves, he can't win the plate gloves if they drop later. This is why most raid leaders will give mail to a shaman over a paladin; it's sort of an implicit rule on my realm anyway. If you want to make sure loot rules are in your favor, determine before-hand what they are.
Post by
PKainus
Out of all of your plate pieces, how many are itemized optimally, skribs?
Yeah, zero.
Post by
228908
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Post by
385864
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
lol at Skribs nice @#$%ty Lib there bro, trying to up your GS with that %^&* or something?
Actually I had that on at that particular time for Flame Levi. Yes, I log out in different libram/trinkets than I raid with.
Shaman can only wear mail?
I think you probably meant that they cannot wear plate.
Within the context I gave, I was correct, because I also listed paladins as only mail+plate. Cloth/leather gear is generally itemized a bit different anyway.
Out of all of your plate pieces, how many are itemized optimally, skribs?
Yeah, zero.
Well, let's see here...I'm at 677 haste (so pretty darn close to haste cap), my crits are overheals and I never goo OOM. So I'd say all, not 0. MP/5 isn't that much better than crit, and just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not good. I actually prefer the crit to the mp/5 because it makes my GoHL's bigger, whereas I don't really have mana problems anyway.
Like I said, though, if you're able to wear plate, and shamans can't, then when a plate piece drops you automatically get it over them. So is it fair then, to them, if you get equal choice on their stuff as well?
Post by
PKainus
Out of all of your plate pieces, how many are itemized
optimally
, skribs?and just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not good.
op·ti·mal (ŏp'tə-məl)
adj. Most favorable or desirable;
Haste / MP5 is the best itemization you can get. None of your plate pieces have this.
Post by
biogoo
Everyone seems to be into haste+mp5, but to be honest, I value haste+crit as the best in 10men, and crit+mp5 with soft haste cap in 25men. Though I admit, haste cap is not a free stat in 277 plate...
Post by
108118
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
biogoo
Rumor goes that for 1% spell haste you need 32,79 haste rating.
Global cooldown is 1.5 second.
Talented judgements give 15% haste.
Talented auras give 3% haste.
Also one of the totems gives 5% haste.
To reach 1 second global cooldown
, which is considered the soft haste cap, you need:
(1.5 / (1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05) - 1) * 32.79 * 100 =
676 haste rating
, rounded up
At 676 haste rating, you Holy Light cast time is (after initial cast):
2.0 / (1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05 * (1 + 676 / 32.79 / 100) = 1.333 second
To reach 1.3 second HL cast time
, which would be reduced to 1 second during Bloodlust, you would need:
(2.0 / (1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05 * 1.3) - 1) * 32.79 * 100 =
777 haste rating
i.e. additional 101 haste rating
to reduce cast time by 0.033 second. Another 101 (878 total) haste rating would lower the cast time to:
2.0 / (1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05 * (1 + 878 / 32.79 / 100) = 1.268 second
i.e. 0.032 second faster cast. Another 101 (979 total) haste rating means:
2.0 / (1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05 * (1 + 979 / 32.79 / 100) = 1.238 second
which is 0.030 second faster.
We have just
added 303 haste rating
over the soft cap and we still
havent even managed to lower the cast time by 0.1 second
(we are close though) while we are still locked at 1 second global cooldown. This is the reason why 676 haste rating is advisable (reduces both GCD and HL cast time), but anything over that just reduces HL cast time by very small and also diminishing ammount.
Of course,
problems come when one of the raid buffs is not present
and you want the soft cap.
To offset 3% aura bonus
, you need:
(1.5 / (1.15 * 1.05) - 1) * 32.79 * 100 =
795, rounded up (119 additional) haste rating
To offset 5% totem bonus
, you need:
(1.5 / (1.15 * 1.03) - 1) * 32.79 * 100 =
874, rounded up (198 additional) haste rating
To offset both
, the required value jumps to:
(1.5 / 1.15 - 1) * 32.79 * 100 =
998, rounded up (322 additional) haste rating
which is slightly more than 119 + 198 = 317, because we are trying to offset multiplicative bonuses with an additive stat.
Hopefully, this totaly off-topic and well hidden post will shed some light into haste and how the stat should be handled by begining holy paladins. The experienced ones will go their way anyway, no matter what numbers you throw into their face.
Post by
skribs
op·ti·mal (ŏp'tə-məl)
adj. Most favorable or desirable;
Haste / MP5 is the best itemization you can get. None of your plate pieces have this.
Optimal does not mean that anything else is equal to 0. My optimal girl would be Summer Glau, does that mean I should not go for any other girl because I can't get Summer? Similarly, does that mean I should not go for any other plate because I can't get haste+mp5?
Everyone seems to be into haste+mp5, but to be honest, I value haste+crit as the best in 10men, and crit+mp5 with soft haste cap in 25men. Though I admit, haste cap is not a free stat in 277 plate...
I think you're highlighting the most important thing. Gear is about choices, and they give you the option on most pieces of haste+crit or mp/5+crit. So it's up to you to decide whether you want haste or mp/5. You can get haste up til cap, after which you can get mp/5 or continue stacking haste.
Considering that during HL spam you're getting over half the mana regen from illumination via crit that you would have gotten for the same itemization in MP/5, and that your intellect provides more regen than either anyway, I'm not too worried about having crit. I also find my mana pool is easily managed (yes, with a lot of HLs even), so I'm not too concerned about not having MP/5.
I know the value of crit falls in fights with lulls, but at the same time you can use those lulls to melee with SoW up and make mana pretty much trivial (15 seconds with DP+melee+judgments and I can go from OOM to >25k easily).
MP5 means you don't have to DP as much, which means you don't take the healing nerf as often, unless you are saying all your heals are 50% overheals? I also would have thought it would be a lot more haste to get HL to 1sec cast. I'm over 700 haste (w/o buffs) and still only get close with BL etc. Until that happens, I want haste, and mp5 to support HL spam.
Several good points. I agree with you on the first (MP5 = less time spent in DP), but I've also learned when to DP on each fight and I find very little loss in effectiveness. During those times, my heals ARE 50% overheals or more.
The haste soft cap is when your FoL and instants are at a 1.0 sec cast, and at that point your HL will be a 1.33. You are right that haste helps beyond then, particularly with HL outside of bloodlust. That's why it's called a soft cap.
2 points of crit rating, during HL spam, about equal 0.5 MP/5 (compared with the 1 mp5 it equals in itemization). They also give your GoHL a bonus (since your crits will generally overheal with the HL itself). In terms of pure regen, MP/5 is better, but not by as much as you'd initially think. It also can't increase your healing.
I'm not trying to say crit > mp/5. I'm trying to say that crit isn't soooooooooo much behind MP/5 that getting plate gear with crit on it means you're absolutely horrible. I do very well being in full plate.
If a leather piece was BiS for shammys, they deserve at least a chance of getting it. Subtract 10 from the /roll if you must, but a flat no is just unfair.
As a plate wearer, I don't know if you really understand what you're saying though. Look at it from the other perspective. You're a balance druid, and a leather piece drops that's BiS for you and a resto shaman - a leather piece with haste+crit (let's say the only mail piece in that slot was crit+mp/5 to make this work). Scenario 1: Shaman wins leather piece, then mail piece drops. Mail piece gets sharded. Scenario 2: Druid gets leather piece, then mail piece drops. Shaman gets less powerful piece.
In scenario 1, you had a piece of loot go to BiS and a piece of loot sharded. In scenario 2, you had a piece of loot go to BiS and a piece of loot go to non-BiS upgrade. Next week, the leather piece may drop again - the shaman has a chance now that the druid has it. So how would you feel, being the druid, knowing that you got nothing while the shaman took a piece you could have had, and then nobody got the other drop because you couldn't wear it, while had loot rules been set to "if its not your highest armor class you have second priority" then you could have both gotten a piece? How do you feel as a raid leader, knowing it could have been possible for 2 pieces to be given out, when in fact only one piece got given out and the other was destroyed? How do you feel as the shaman? Are you happy that you got your BiS piece at the expense of the druid getting anything? That sounds selfish to me, a bit like a loot <insert explicative normally used to describe people selling themselves>.
As a plate wearer you don't really have this issue, because you can have everything. So you never learned to empathize for those who don't have that ability. You're the top of the loot food chain, don't eat the people below you. On that note, I would say you deserve it more than an off-spec shaman, because it is for your main spec.
Edit: Biogoo, nice math. Could you please give the application from it that you're trying to give us, though? No offense meant, I just see a lot of numbers with no "here's what it means that it takes X haste to reduce the cast time by Y."
Post by
biogoo
Edit: Biogoo, nice math. Could you please give the application from it that you're trying to give us, though? No offense meant, I just see a lot of numbers with no "here's what it means that it takes X haste to reduce the cast time by Y."
Read the
bold
parts, you should get your TL;DR
(TBH the only purpose of the math was to overcome a temporary boredom at work)
Post by
skribs
No I understood the bold parts, what I don't get is what you're trying to say. Are you trying to point out other caps? Are you trying to show how little haste benefits you past the cap? Are you trying to say that it takes going way over for haste to lose its value? That's what I want to know. You made a lot of statements to support your point and math to back up those statements, but you never said what the point was.
Post by
slasher0161
TL;DR
We have just added 303 haste rating over the soft cap and we still havent even managed to lower the cast time by 0.1 second (we are close though) while we are still locked at 1 second global cooldown. This is the reason why 676 haste rating is advisable (reduces both GCD and HL cast time), but anything over that just reduces HL cast time by very small and also diminishing ammount.
Post by
biogoo
Thinking about it, the general point was that even if someone unknown to me has stated that haste + mp5 is the best stat combination, having it on all gear is almost useless and we should not whine about crit+mp5 plate, as long as we are fully raid buffed and have acces to haste for at least the soft cap.
And to OP: Yes, we can stick to plate.
Post by
aacid
As a plate wearer, I don't know if you really understand what you're saying though. Look at it from the other perspective. You're a balance druid, and a leather piece drops that's BiS for you and a resto shaman - a leather piece with haste+crit (let's say the only mail piece in that slot was crit+mp/5 to make this work). Scenario 1: Shaman wins leather piece, then mail piece drops. Mail piece gets sharded. Scenario 2: Druid gets leather piece, then mail piece drops. Shaman gets less powerful piece.
exactly this. and to go even further, imagine (OP) that you're cloth wearer, you can't wear anything but cloth, but with your logic druids, shamans and paladins should roll with you on those items...
Post by
299264
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Post by
485995
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
572779
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Post by
Raleandris
In accordance with itemizing Crit>Haste>Mp/5
What? BiS itemization is Haste > mp5 > Crit.
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