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Various Pros and Cons of the Races
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Post by
taurenmoo812
I saw we end this 'discussion' here with the standard 'you believe one thing' 'I believe another' and we're not going to reach a compromise because of our biases
Fine. I'm actully tired here myself and just want to put it to rest.
Post by
306612
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Post by
Monday
Thanks for the suggestions so far. I haven't added the part about the gnomes yet, but Sigmafel I copied your views on Lor'themar in there, thanks ^_^
And of course the formatting decides to screw me over >.>
I'd double-check since BEs as a faction have much less lore post-Kael than the other races and I may have filled in some blanks with fanon. Like the whole "How did the BEs react to the betrayal?" IIRC, Lor'themar pretty much went : "Wow, Kael. You're a real @#$%." but the population was probably too mindpuppetted/high on magic to give a %^&*.
Yeah, I was going through and couldn't really find anything, so I'll just keep those up until something else comes along (unless you want me to remove them).
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
2.Incredibly racist against Orcs and Forsaken.
I take issue with this. Every single person in this game is racist in some form, why is it suddenly listed as a con for Varian?
In addition, being "racist" against the Forsaken is like being "racist" against the Scourge.
He does a have a problem with the Orcs and the Forsaken over the other three/four Horde races; of course, it's semi-'allowed' due to what the Forsaken did at the Wrathgate, and his problems with the Old Horde in the past.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Joemaster240
He does a have a problem with the Orcs and the Forsaken over the other three/four Horde races; of course, it's semi-'allowed' due to what the Forsaken did at the Wrathgate, and his problems with the Old Horde in the past.
I don't see him as being any more "racist" than your average Orc grunt. Actually, he's probably less racist. I have a hard time picturing one of Garrosh's men doing what Varian did in ICC.
And as far as the Forsaken go, it wasn't just the Wrathgate; it was their defilement of Lordaeron in general that was the primary contributor to war.
the forsaken didn't defile it. It was arthas that defiled it when he came back as a death knight under the lich king and destroyed the entire country and raised everyone as the scourge.
Post by
Rankkor
2.Incredibly racist against Orcs and Forsaken.
I take issue with this. Every single person in this game is racist in some form, why is it suddenly listed as a con for Varian?
In addition, being "racist" against the Forsaken is like being "racist" against the Scourge.
wrong.
Gelbin=no specific blind hatred to any race shown so far.
Magni= Oposes the orcs, but doesn't hates them with a passion.
Tyrande= oposes the orcs, but has shown to be reasonable in the past, and does't allow herself to be controlled by hate.
Velen=saint, he's incapable of hating. (after meeting durotan he has seen that not all orcs are evil, and that the race itself is quite capable of showing honor, I'm sure he and thrall would be best friends if only circunstances would allow them to meet, plus he was showing no regrets in helping the blood elves of silvermoon reclaim the sunwell, even aiding the founder of the blood knights)
Thrall= I think it's pretty clear at this point that thrall has never EVER judged an individual by race, but by actions and honor, it doesn't matter to him if you are an orc or a human, if you are honorable he respects you, if you are a vile scumbag, the doomhammer will have a fond meeting with your head.
Cairne=horde's version of Velen, a saint, a nice old man that respects tradition and while he fights the centaur he has never shown any radicalistic hate towards them, or any race for that matter, for him all life is conected to the earthmother in one way or another, and in death we are all the same in her eyes.
Vol'jin= quite cunning, and ruthless when needed be, but so far what little lore he has recieved doesn't show him as a guy who has a beef against any race. Then again, he has been almost as non-existant in lore as gelbin is.
Lor'themar=this guy definily doesn't exist, he may be a requirement on the "for the alliance" achievement, but he doesn't exist (save for a few lines in 4 quests)
Sylvannas=Ruthless, merciless, and aparently (by the leaked content shown in some sites) a traitor to the horde, I'd definily put bias on her "Con" list, she is definitly blinded by hate, what I dont get is where that hate comes from ,I mean I get why she's mad at arthas, but why she's mad at most of the livings is behond me.
at first I tought she was only obsessed with erradicating those who would harm the forsaken, but after seeing the events on the battle of gilneas, it's pretty clear she has a few wires fused.
Varian= show him an orc, and he will kill him or her, it doesn't matter if the orc is innocent or not, varian hates orcs, even those who aren't aligned with the horde, same goes for the forsaken.
on the comics he bluntly stated "an orc is an orc, NONE of your kind can be trusted" for him there is no diference between the warmonger manchild garrosh and the poor orc farmer on the barrens trying to take care of his children.
just because an orc (who was mind-controlled at the time, something he's quite familiar with) assassinated his father, doent' mean all orcs are backstabbers.
and its this blind hate to orcs wich works as a con against varian because it's VERY easy to fool him, just look at what happened in theramoore, when the old gods wanted the peace meeting disrupted and while neither jaina nor thrall lost their cool , varian lost it BIG time. that's neither the first nor the last time he's lost controll of his emotions when an orc is involved, in the argent tournament he spends 90% of the time calling orcs "animals" "savages" "brutes" "liars and cowards" and worst.
I'd say he's there on par with sylvannas on the "hate" part.
Post by
Monday
Thrall= I think it's pretty clear at this point that thrall has never EVER judged an individual by race, but by actions and honor, it doesn't matter to him if you are an orc or a human, if you are honorable he respects you, if you are a vile scumbag, the doomhammer will have a fond meeting with your head.
I'm not too sure about this. I was just reading "For Blood and Honor" and "Lord of the Clans", where Thrall leaves the guards trapped and in pain because they were at the camp, and then later when Tirion rescues Eitrigg he just goes "Thanks for your help, have fun in exile." No matter how much honor Tirion showed he was a human, so they left him.
/shrug
Vol'jin= quite cunning, and ruthless when needed be, but so far what little lore he has recieved doesn't show him as a guy who has a beef against any race. Then again, he has been almost as non-existant in lore as gelbin is.
Did you do the quest:
The Admiral's Orders?
Countless times I urged the Warchief not to trust the humans
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I know basic lore.
But the Forsaken have been the primary defilers of Capital City. It was they who expanded the Undercity. The Undercity used to be just a crypt and dungeon, but it's the Forsaken that expanded it and put stuff like the Apothecarium there.
Uh, only partially; there was another city that Lordaeron City was built on, and that's what the Forsaken revived and rebuilt.
He worked to PROTECT Thura in Stormrage.Not at first; when she first showed up in Stormwind, his first instinct was to attack and try to kill her; had the Night Elves not been there to stop him, he probably would have killed her.
Post by
HiVolt
He worked to PROTECT Thura in Stormrage.Not at first; when she first showed up in Stormwind, his first instinct was to attack and try to kill her; had the Night Elves not been there to stop him, he probably would have killed her.
As if mere mortal weapons can harm the spawn of a Saurfang...
Post by
358417
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Post by
HiVolt
As if mere mortal weapons can harm the spawn of a Knaak...
Fixed that for you. But I hope that you're just acting in accordance with the meme, and don't actually believe that. Varian would've destroyed her.
Yeah, that works too, if you want to spoil the fun. :P
Yes, I was just kidding around. Seemed like this thread could use a little lightening up after the last couple of pages.
Post by
Joemaster240
I know basic lore.
But the Forsaken have been the primary defilers of Capital City. It was they who expanded the Undercity. The Undercity used to be just a crypt and dungeon, but it's the Forsaken that expanded it and put stuff like the Apothecarium there.
Uh, only partially; there was another city that Lordaeron City was built on, and that's what the Forsaken revived and rebuilt.
actually the Undercity was the sewer and dungeon of lordaeron. It wasn't a city. However people did hide down there who were too poor to afford a house.
Post by
Rankkor
funden, he left the guards trapped because they refused to surrender, on durnhold the guards that DID surrendered were spared, as long as they lay down their weapons.
and as for not taking tirion, while he was an honorable man, he would had been a burden to the orcs, not to mention that tirion himself did not asked to go with them, I'm pretty sure that had tirion asked to go with them, he would had allowed it.
He didn't kill Thrall at Theramore
JA JA JA JA, I would LOVE to see him try :P that is, if you don't mind to have a bloody stain on the floor as your king :P
he didn't wanted to go to theramoore in the first place, believing the orcs to be backstabing monsters, he only went because his son insisted and he loves his kid so he gave him a chance.
Thrall responded with how it was a mistake to trust humans
don't make me post the comic page in question, thrall never said it was a mistake to trust humans, he trust jaina with his life, he trusts tirion too. He was responding to Varian when HE ACUSED THRALL of sending garona without any kind of evidence to back it up.
Garona wasn't wearing any kind of horde tabard, her forces were atacking horde and alliance forces alike, everyone was under siege, and he had the nerve to say "the great thrall is just like the others, all orcs know only of betrayal".
after that he insulted both thrall and garrosh unprovoked (garrosh wanted to kill garona because she tried to kill thrall and varian smirked "you just wanna silence your assassin" having no evidence to support that)
he insulted the honor of both thrall and garrosh without any kind of evidence, (something that's quite offensive to an orc) and thrall stood in the way between both varian and garrosh, he said to garrosh "even if he insulted us we agreed to peace within these walls and we will uphold that promise" and then adressing varian "take a good look at her, she is neither on our side, nor is she an actual orc, she's a half-orc, perhaps we all look the same to you, maybe it was wrong to expect more from a human".
and varian repplied "half-orc, full orc, an orc is still an orc and NONE of your kind can be trusted"
so there it is, don't try to modify lore to your biased point of view.
Varian has a problem with orcs, more so than what it's reasonable for a leader, he's too hotheaded to lead something because a leader needs to controll himself to later controll others.
what I find amusing is that later varian feels insulted when garrosh acuses the alliance of plotting with demons to kill the horde on trial of the crusader :P garrosh having no evidence imidietly said that the whole accident with fizzlebang was a ploy of the alliance and varian says "they make wild acusations against us" as if he had never done the same in the past-
xD lame.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
I've stopped bothering replying to Rankkorr. Nothing is going to get through his fanboy head.
I find this ironic...
I see him basing his arguments on evidence, fact and quotes. Yours are based on "Nuh uh! Nuh uh!"
Get some evidence and stop insulting people and calling anyone who disagrees a fanboy and maybe we'll listen to you.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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