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Post by
Skreeran
I think the difficulty here is the broad definition of rape. I'm naturally inclined to think of it as mainly the "knife to the throat in a dark alley" sort. When you say forcible rape, that's the image that pops into my head.
Post by
Magician22773
I gotta get to bed, but:
Better to acknowledge that fact, and make your case as to why the priority should still be education above changing the way people dress.
The only thing I would add to this, is that the
immediate
priority should be on what may help prevent a rape
right now
, which is
all
avoidance techniques,
including
how a woman dresses and acts, but the final goal should be on changing how young men are raised, and instilling "no means no".
I think the difficulty here is the broad definition of rape. I'm naturally inclined to think of it as mainly the "knife to the throat in a dark alley" sort. When you say forcible rape, that's the image that pops into my head.
Rape has only one definition...it has many categories and motivations, but any non-consensual sex is rape.
Post by
Patty
Many women are led to believe that if they are not part of a certain category of women then they are 'safe' from being raped. Women and girls of all ages, classes, culture, ability, sexuality, race and faith are raped.
Attractiveness has little significance. Reports show that there is a great diversity in the way targeted women act or dress. Rapists choose women based on their vulnerability not their physical appearance.
Sometimes women see themselves as 'unworthy' or 'undesirable' because of their age or physical appearance and therefore 'safe' from rape. Some men joke or make comments about women's appearances or age to indicate whether she is sexually desirable or available, or as part of their defence in court, saying he thought 'he was doing her a favour', using her appearance or age. Women are raped from the age of three to ninety three. Rape is an act of violence not sex.
Here
Also, your 22% figure of "provocation" is really
closer to 4.4%
. I linked this a few pages ago but it seems everyone skipped over it.
Race is more of a factor than clothing, shown by the fact that more than 1/3 women of native American ethnicity will be raped.
Linking all of this directly
back to feminism.
Nation-wide, one-third of college men reported they would rape a woman if they knew they would not get caught. (8)
Rapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.
Here.
The role of the victim in rape is very, very rare, and should never even be considered because that just detracts blame from the attacker.
I think the difficulty here is the broad definition of rape. I'm naturally inclined to think of it as mainly the "knife to the throat in a dark alley" sort. When you say forcible rape, that's the image that pops into my head.
ALL rape is forcible. That's why it's rape.
Post by
Skreeran
I think how a woman dresses is
her
business, not mine.
Rape has only one definition...it has many categories and motivations, but any non-consensual sex is rape.Hence me saying I think the difficulty here is the broad definition of rape.
Post by
Gone
I think the difficulty here is the broad definition of rape. I'm naturally inclined to think of it as mainly the "knife to the throat in a dark alley" sort. When you say forcible rape, that's the image that pops into my head.
That's the image I get as well, I think a lot of people do. To be fair though, the whole discussion was originally sparked about an incident where a girl was raped after passing out at a party. Although I think the lesson there is more about underage drinking and being responsible about how much alcohol you consume than anything else (speaking from the victims perspective of course).
The only thing I would add to this, is that the immediate priority should be on what may help prevent a rape right now, which is all avoidance techniques, including how a woman dresses and acts, but the final goal should be on changing how young men are raised, and instilling "no means no".
The responsibility for this lies solely on the woman in question though, not on society. If a woman does dress and act provocatively, and this in some way adds to the motives behind her being raped, she still shouldn't be held accountable for what happened to her.
Post by
Skreeran
I'll tell you one thing. I can only tell you what I know myself. I don't know what went through the minds of those teenagers, or whether or not it was out of sexual gratification or cruelty.
I've said it before in this thread, and it's not easy to bring it up: I am not a sexual predator, but I have the mind of one. I used to have regular thoughts of torturing women. It's taken a lot of hard work and dedication to fight those back to where they are now. But the fact remains: I know how those people--that particular type of assailant--think. I know what they want, and it's not sex.
It's hard to bring this up here. I have genuine respect and empathy for women, and have become an ardent feminist. It's really hard to have the psychological problems and moral values I do without feeling like a total hypocrite. The reason I choose to share, despite fear of shame, is because I hope that my own problems might help other people.
Post by
Gone
Skreeran, that takes a lot of balls to admit here. I know that kind of honesty can be tough to come out with, and I cannot tell you how much respect I have for you for being that truthful, especially in a thread like this. I have a little bit of experience with things like this, not exactly the same as you, but when I was a teenager I had a therapist tell my parents something that more or less ruined the next several years of my life. I know how hard it can be to be honest about things like this.
As far as the two rapists in the story, it was probably a crime of opportunity more than anything else. They were young and sexually inexperienced, they saw a girl passed out and went for it.
Post by
Patty
I think the difficulty here is the broad definition of rape. I'm naturally inclined to think of it as mainly the "knife to the throat in a dark alley" sort. When you say forcible rape, that's the image that pops into my head.
That's the image I get as well, I think a lot of people do. To be fair though, the whole discussion was originally sparked about an incident where a girl was raped after passing out at a party. Although I think the lesson there is more about underage drinking and being responsible about how much alcohol you consume than anything else (speaking from the victims perspective of course).
The
only
lesson to be learned from the Ohio case is that society (and the law) is still $%^&ty enough to be willing to cover up gang-rape, and instead *!@#-shame the victim because it's easier for them and their precious rapists than seeing them brought to justice. That women are still not respected and their value lies in what's between their legs.
I know that your post doesn't have any intention of rape apologism or victim blaming in it, but that's (partially) the tone I got from it.
Arguing that dressing "&*!@tily", whatever that means, plays a significant role in getting raped when it
does not
, as I linked, doesn't exactly help dispel the myths surrounding rape. In fact it perpetuates a climate where rape remains unreported and unprosecuted because of self-guilt and shame.
Post by
Gone
I think the difficulty here is the broad definition of rape. I'm naturally inclined to think of it as mainly the "knife to the throat in a dark alley" sort. When you say forcible rape, that's the image that pops into my head.
That's the image I get as well, I think a lot of people do. To be fair though, the whole discussion was originally sparked about an incident where a girl was raped after passing out at a party. Although I think the lesson there is more about underage drinking and being responsible about how much alcohol you consume than anything else (speaking from the victims perspective of course).
The
only
lesson to be learned from the Ohio case is that society (and the law) is still $%^&ty enough to be willing to cover up gang-rape, and instead *!@#-shame the victim because it's easier for them and their precious rapists than seeing them brought to justice. That women are still not respected and their value lies in what's between their legs.
I know that your post doesn't have any intention of rape apologism or victim blaming in it, but that's (partially) the tone I got from it.
Arguing that dressing "&*!@tily", whatever that means, plays a significant role in getting raped when it
does not
, as I linked, doesn't exactly help dispel the myths surrounding rape. In fact it perpetuates a climate where rape remains unreported and unprosecuted because of self-guilt and shame.
I can see how you would get that. All that I meant was that if anything made her vulnerable to attack in that situation, it was her inebriated state and lack of supervision (wasn't she like 15?) more than the way she was dressed. I absolutely take a hard line against any kind of blame on the part of the victim.
Post by
Patty
Yes, absolutely. But obviously (as you posted), vulnerability doesn't justify rape in any circumstance, and by trying to lay blame on the victim it's just helping the rapist. Although by any rate, the victim probably already thinks that, and is blaming them self for getting into that kind of situation and allowing them self to become so vulnerablw. Which is obviously wrong, because the rape should never have happened anyway, but guilt is very common in rape recovery. To clarify, the last paragraph was not aimed at you, but more generally.
Also as a point of order, whilst only two were charged with her rape, there were several others complicit in the event at the time who were filming it, tweeting etc. These have not been brought to justice.
Post by
Gone
Also as a point of order, whilst only two were charged with her rape, there were several others complicit in the event at the time who were filming it, tweeting etc. These have not been brought to justice.
That's called the bystander effect. People's capacity/passivity towards cruelty dramatically increases when they are in a group situation where the behavior seems acceptable, or especially when they think they have the approval of an authority figure.
Henry Milgram did a famous experiment on the subject years ago. The subject of the experiment would be delivering what they thought were electric shocks to an actor, who unbeknownst to the subject was actually part of the experiment. Some of the subjects went so far as to hold down the victims hand on the shock plate while they were crying out to be let go.
There are other examples of this, and other forms of mob mentality throughout history, Nazi Germany (aaaand Goodwin) for example.
Post by
Patty
Yeah, I'm aware of the theory of the bystander effect, but I was more clarifying that although two rapists have been brought to justice, it's not like this is a full and punitive conclusion for all those involved in the case. Just so everyone is more aware that this (should be, I hope) a still on-going process.
I'm curious if the figures I linked matched your estimates, or were different in any way, or might have changed your outlooks at all. I know I was horrified (but not very shocked, I have to say) to see the college student numbers report. Maybe that's just because I
am
at university at the minute, I don't know.
Post by
Gone
Unfortunately I wasn't that surprised. My uncle was a cop near Boston, and he said that at one point there was more than a rape a night at Umass Amherst (the place has a reputation around here as a party school). I was the one saying earlier that date rape is much more common than the typical image of a guy in a raincoat hiding in the bushes.
The case in Ohio got a lot of attention, so we are all hearing about it, but the sad fact is that it happens every day all over the world.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
This dress issue bothers me. I'm married now, and male, but when I went out socializing, or playing music, I always dressed provocatively. I made sure my hair, and any beard were well groomed. I wore tight t shirts, short sleeved shirts, jeans that accentuated by buttocks etc. I did this precisely because I wanted to attract sexual interest - from somebody I fancied. I still make myself look sexually appealing to my wife.
If a woman dresses "provocatively", it is for the same reason. Fair play to 'em! That doesn't in any way detract from the important basic starting point that you can make advances, and get told "I don't think so! Thanks, but no thanks!" It's people who don't respect that who cause sexual assaults.
So just because a woman wears provocative cloths that means shes trying to attract people?
Post by
Nathanyal
Why do women wear high heels? I hear they are uncomfortable as hell, yet women still wear them. Is it because they want to accentuate their body to attract others?
Now some of those provocative clothes might be comfortable to wear, but I'm sure they can be just as comfortable in sweats.
Post by
Gone
Why do women wear high heels? I hear they are uncomfortable as hell, yet women still wear them. Is it because they want to accentuate their body to attract others?
What man gives a %^&* about a woman's shoes?
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
Why do women wear high heels? I hear they are uncomfortable as hell, yet women still wear them. Is it because they want to accentuate their body to attract others?
What man gives a %^&* about a woman's shoes?
It's not the shoes I'm asking about, it's the "why is she wearing them?" that I'm asking.
Post by
Gone
Well, Ryja, that is the definition of (sexually) provocative. You want to attract interest. That's a good thing. It's how we all got born: by our mum thinking that our dad looked sexy, and the other way round at the same time.
Just because an outfit can be considered provocative that doesn't mean that it's being worn to appeal to a member of the opposite sex. Maybe women wear the aforementioned cloths to feel good about themselves, or just to be comfortable. I was just talking to a certain female poster on these forums who said she wears skimpy cloths around the house purely for comfort, not trying to attract anybody.
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