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Thou shalt not kill...
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Post by
Skreeran
Alright, so recently, I have had a discussion about MyTie over whether killing is acceptable in any situation. He made the assertion that killing is wrong no matter the circumstance. I can only imagine that this belief is a result of the Christian faith, and thus I have made this thread to point out that many killings were done in the Bible at the command of God himself. I would have put this into one of the other threads, except it seems mostly off topic from the central purpose of the two running threads.
All verses are taken from the NKJV version of the Bible. You are free to look them up in whatever version you like. My commentary will follow each verse.
Deuteronomy 13:13-16
'Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods" '--which you have not known--then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And indeed true certain such an abomination was committed among you, you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock--with the edge of the sword.
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again.
So that means that if anyone in your lands has a different faith then you, Old Testament God wanted you to kill them and everyone in their city.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and , when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.So if you have a rebellious teen who won't obey, even after punishment, Old Testament God wanted you to stone him to death.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
"If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, 'I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she not a virgin,' then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the young woman's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. And the young woman's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, "I found your daughter not a virgin," and yet these my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; and they shall fine him one hundred of silver and give to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
"But if the thing is true, virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.So if you find out that your wife had sex before you married, Old Testament God wanted you to stone her.
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood upon them.So Old Testament God wanted us to kill all the homosexuals.
Joshua 6:16-17; 6:20-21
And the seventh time it happened, when the priests blew the trumpets, that Joshua said to the people: "Shout, for the LORD has given you the city! Now the city shall be doomed by the LORD to destruction, it and all who in it. Only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all who with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
So the people shouted when blew the trumpets. And it happened when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat. Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.Old Testament God made had no qualms about having his people kill children.
Joshua 7
(The whole chapter. I won't post it here, but I suggest you read it. I'll cut to the chase for the quote, with Joshua 7:24-26.)
Then Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, the silver, the garment, the wedge of gold, his sons, his daughters, his oxen, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and all that he had, and they brought them to the Valley of Achor. And Joshua said, "Why have you troubled us? The LORD will trouble you this day." So all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones.So if your dad sins, you get burnt/stoned too, according to OTG.
Joshua 8
(Again, read the whole chapter, but I'll skip to the good part, Joshua 8:24-25.)
And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword.
So it was all who fell that day, both men and women, twelve thousand--all the people of Ai.More city slaughtering at the command of Old Testament God.
You know what, just read the whole damn book of Joshua.
-------------------------
Alright, so down to the bottom line, the tl;dr, the point of the thread... Christians and Jews in particular, what do you think of the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" commandment? Is it a general rule, a poor translation, or is all killing wrong and only acceptable at the direct order of God?
I'm seriously not trying to troll here, I'm merely making this thread because I promised MyTie I'd show him where God directly ordered killing, and it wasn't appropriate for the other two threads. If the mods so say, I can put it in a different thread.
Post by
MischievousLoki
I don't know about the Jewish faith, but the Christian faith also goes by the New Testament, which teaches that a lot of the old laws are no longer necessary.
You might also consider that when God commands you do something for his will, it means you should do it even if he told you not to do it according to your own. If God says "Don't kill people." and then later says "Kill these evil people to punish them for me.", you might take that to mean that he originally meant "Don't kill people unless I command you to." or "Don't decide to kill on your own." etc.
Then there's always the old argument of that it should be translated into "Don't murder." and not "Don't kill."
I'm not really interested in arguing all day. I'm just throwing some common thoughts out there to get a discussion going.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't know about the Jewish faith, but the Christian faith also goes by the New Testament, which teaches that a lot of the old laws are no longer necessary.
You might also consider that when God commands you do something for his will, it means you should do it even if he told you not to do it according to your own. If God says "Don't kill people." and then later says "Kill these evil people to punish them for me.", you might take that to mean that he originally meant "Don't kill people unless I command you to." or "Don't decide to kill on your own." etc.
Then there's always the old argument of that it should be translated into "Don't murder." and not "Don't kill."
I'm not really interested in arguing all day. I'm just throwing some common thoughts out there to get a discussion going.Well, thanks for the input. :)
I think someone addressed this. They said because there god is god he's allowed to break his own rules. Because they're his rules. He can kill 99% of the earth, torture someone in fire and pus and maggots for ever and ever and ever for something you or I might not even give a slap on the wrist over (say, coming to a logical conclusion that there is no all-powerful deity and thus not worshipping him), all while at the same time being the most loving being that could ever exist at any time because he's magic.
Don't question him (that's blasphemy).Heh... That sounds about right.
Post by
cheezedood21
As a Christian, I believe the act of killing another human being
can
be considered "not sinning." It really depends on your intent. If someone raises a gun to your head, I believe it perfectly fine to defend yourself.
If you are in a war, intent on defending your country, I believe it perfectly legal to kill an enemy with your rifle.
Obviously, this is just skimming the surface of possible situations you could be put in. But, I like to stick with 'intent' as a means of right or wrong.
Those are my general opinions on the subject.
Post by
MyTie
Ok. I'm going on the understanding that time travel is impossible. If time travel were possible, then following God's order to kill would be legitimate. However, since time travel is impossible (at least, to my understanding), I will maintain the assertion that 'Thou Shall Not Kill' is absolute.
I shall begin with the subjective/objective arguement.
Either there is a God, or there isn't a God.
If there
ISN'T
a God, then our only 'moral compass' is our own emotions and feelings about situations. That means, that nothing is truely justified and nothing is truely unjustified, since we only have to go on ourselves. Since we change, the moral standard changes. The atheistic attitude toward morals MUST be one of subjectivity, since morals are not something that can be 'discovered' outside of humans.
If there
IS
a God, then morals come from Him. In that case, morals are completely objective (discoverable), and come directly from the all knowning being. In this case, the all knowing being is the defining factor for what is morally acceptible and what is morally unacceptible. No matter what the situation, no matter what the order, it is a morally acceptible one, since God is the defineing charachteristic for morals.
So, either it is wrong to kill humans, or there is no God, and nothing really matters beyond whatever you decide at any given moment.
I shall build on that arguement with the judgement arguement.
God, if he exists, is the authority for judgement. He will, after all, be the judge of many who will be cast to Hell for eternity. He doesn't give humans the right to judge/kill, but he certainly retains that power, and uses humans as an insturment of his punishment, particularly in the old testament. Beyond that, I cannot offer justification for His judgement. If he exists, then it is justified. If He does not, then none of these arguements matter.
These arguements are laid out pretty well
here
, probably better than I could do.
It all comes down to whether or not you believe in a God. If you don't, then how can you cry moral foul? By what rule book? If you do, then you believe that God is justified.
Post by
Skreeran
Ok. I'm going on the understanding that time travel is impossible. If time travel were possible, then following God's order to kill would be legitimate. However, since time travel is impossible (at least, to my understanding), I will maintain the assertion that 'Thou Shall Not Kill' is absolute.
I shall begin with the subjective/objective arguement.
Either there is a God, or there isn't a God.
If there
ISN'T
a God, then our only 'moral compass' is our own emotions and feelings about situations. That means, that nothing is truely justified and nothing is truely unjustified, since we only have to go on ourselves. Since we change, the moral standard changes. The atheistic attitude toward morals MUST be one of subjectivity, since morals are not something that can be 'discovered' outside of humans.
If there
IS
a God, then morals come from Him. In that case, morals are completely objective (discoverable), and come directly from the all knowning being. In this case, the all knowing being is the defining factor for what is morally acceptible and what is morally unacceptible. No matter what the situation, no matter what the order, it is a morally acceptible one, since God is the defineing charachteristic for morals.
So, either it is wrong to kill humans, or there is no God, and nothing really matters beyond whatever you decide at any given moment.
I shall build on that arguement with the judgement arguement.
God, if he exists, is the authority for judgement. He will, after all, be the judge of many who will be cast to Hell for eternity. Beyond that, I cannot offer justification for His judgement. If he exists, then it is justified. If He does not, then none of these arguements matter.
These arguements are laid out pretty well
here
, probably better than I could do.So basically your argument is "Killing is WRONG, unless God says so."
It all comes down to whether or not you believe in a God. If you don't, then how can you cry moral foul? By what rule book? If you do, then you believe that God is justified.I don't object to "God's" morals. I object to the people that are killed in the name of a God that I don't believe exists.
Post by
MyTie
So basically your argument is "Killing is WRONG, unless God says so."
That's taking a lot of the reasoning and logic out of my arguement and putting it down to bare bones, but yeah. I mean, you could strip it down further:
"If God says X is wrong for humans to decide to do, then X is wrong to decide to do. If God tells humans to do X in a particular circumstance, then
not
doing X is the wrong thing to decide to do.
I could take this all a step further and point out the national significance of the Isrealites, and try to infer God's reasoning. I could then go farther to infer that is not the purpose of God today, in New Testament times. I couldn't see God ordering the death of anyone today. I mean, if you want to see a reflection of the mercy, compassion, grace, and kindness of God, don't pick out small verses, but look at the big picture. Look at Jesus, healing the ear of the man who arrested Him, and forgiving those that were killing him.
Considering the bigger picture of the old testament, you may be taking these things out of context.
Post by
149406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't know about the Jewish faith, but the Christian faith also goes by the New Testament,
which teaches that a lot of the old laws are no longer necessary.
This. Too many people assume that we're hypocrites because God was a #$%^ in the Old Testament.
Anyway, I always saw it that killing when someone means you or a loved one grievous bodily harm or death, then you can defend yourself with lethal force. This includes, say, going to war; not all soldiers are sinners, they're just defending themselves and their countries.But homosexuality is still a horrible sin, right?
And which laws are obsolete now? Who gets to pick which ones still apply? Is it the Pope? Or just the Ten Commandments?
Post by
149406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
I don't know about the Jewish faith, but the Christian faith also goes by the New Testament,
which teaches that a lot of the old laws are no longer necessary.
This. Too many people assume that we're hypocrites because God was a #$%^ in the Old Testament.
Anyway, I always saw it that killing when someone means you or a loved one grievous bodily harm or death, then you can defend yourself with lethal force. This includes, say, going to war; not all soldiers are sinners, they're just defending themselves and their countries.
The orders of God to kill others are more...ambiguous. I personally believe that a lot of the things in the Old Testament didn't occur, or occurred differently. The God who would order people killed is certainly different from the merciful being that I truly believe in.
So he had counselling or something whilst Jesus was on Earth, presumably?
Post by
MyTie
Jesus accepted everyone, and so should we.
I disagree. He accepted those that loved Him, and followed His teachings. He even says in Matt 7.... verse 12 i think, that there are many He will turn His back on.
Post by
149406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
149406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Lol. I don't know. My belief is that Jesus had come to teach that humanity's understanding of God was flawed, and to show them His true, merciful ways. For all we know, God may have changed his ways. God may have seen that He was being too harsh; perhaps that's why He hasn't interfered much since Jesus' death.
But God's supposed to be perfect, perfect people are not too harsh.
In all honesty...I don't understand God's reasoning whatsoever, if he exists.
Old testament;
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey...
New testament;
"You've just killed my son, you're kinda cool. Be nice, now." *disappears into some unknown realm*
Post by
149406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Lol. I don't know. My belief is that Jesus had come to teach that humanity's understanding of God was flawed, and to show them His true, merciful ways. For all we know, God may have changed his ways. God may have seen that He was being too harsh; perhaps that's why He hasn't interfered much since Jesus' death.
But God's supposed to be perfect, perfect people are not too harsh.
In all honesty...I don't understand God's reasoning whatsoever, if he exists.
Old testament;
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey...
New testament;
"You've just killed my son, you're kinda cool. Be nice, now." *disappears into some unknown realm*
That's why I believe that some of the Old Testament was misconstrued or just in general untrue. That's too much of a contradiction, for me.Same here.
I just decided it was all Bull anyway.
Post by
Patty
That's why I believe that some of the Old Testament was misconstrued or just in general untrue. That's too much of a contradiction, for me.
But the new testament is true completely? Assuming that the order I quoted in the Old Testament was true, it's much more likely than the New Testament's "God said to Jesus who said to me"; which is like a game of Chinese whispers, it'll never be the whole truth!
Post by
cheezedood21
I believe God was very clear that homosexuality is a sin. I do not remember the verse but it was something along the lines of "A man may not lay with a man. And, a woman may not lay with a woman."
God does not to say to hate anyone. He has commanded us to hate sin.
Edit: And to add, he says to love everyone. Not that we must accept everyone.
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