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Why Your Religion?
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Post by
Squishalot
Nope. This is sociology, and the scientific method isn't applicable to sociology. You can also have unbiased studies in both Sociology and Science.
Bull!@#$. The scientific method is applicable to anything that would call itself a science, or that would demonstrate a principle. That includes sociology, which is a science.
And you can have unbiased studies. However, taking an American study and applying it to a global population would constitute bias.
Conjecture, and incorrect from a sociological stance.
I understand that there is psychological evidence demonstrating such. I don't claim to understand precisely how it works, of course, only that there are such things as 'moderately gay' and 'slightly gay', along a scale between 0 and 10, of sorts.
Yup, religion just justified killing homosexuals.
Wrong again. Religion simply put it into writing. The desire of the community to stone homosexuals to death must have existed at the time of the writing of Leviticus for it to be adopted into law.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Yup, religion just justified killing homosexuals.
Wrong again. Religion simply put it into writing. The desire of the community to stone homosexuals to death must have existed at the time of the writing of Leviticus for it to be adopted into law.Unless the Hewbrews had enough "faith" that Moses (or whoever it was that actually came up with these things) was the mouth of their god that they would believe that whatever he said was right.
Let's go back to Islam for a moment. In the Middle East, they can use religion to justify beating their wives to show them who's boss, and it is considered the girl's fault if she is raped, because that's what their religious leaders tells them. These attitudes don't form in a vacuum. Religion does not only constitute the religious texts. All of these people who believe in Young Earth Creationism and the End Times and Homosexuality as an atrocious abomination learn these things not only from their Bibles, Torahs, and Korans, but from their religious leaders and religious teaching taught to them by their parents. From birth they are brainwashed into believing things that don't exist that they then use to justify whatever they see fit to do.
But all of that is just a part of why I hate religion. The majority of it, the core of it, is my hatred for human ignorance. I don't mean ignorance as "intolerance," as it's come to connotate, but the true form of the word. I hate that 45% of American adults
actually
believe that the Earth was created in 6 days 6000-10,000 years ago, despite not only the lack of evidence for their claims, but the heaps of evidence to the contrary. I hate that these people refuse to look at these things rationally, instead sticking unshakingly to whatever their parents and religious leaders tell them. I hate that these people have so much pull in my society.
Just look at my earlier Lottery example. Now imagine that these people make up a majority of your country, and have a great deal of pull in your government. They propose that statistics of lottery-winning be stricken from textbooks, because the evidence cannot be correct if they believe that they'll win.
Imagine if you lived in a world where 75% or more of the world you lived in actually believed in elves, unicorns, mermaids, and sparkly vampires with all their hearts, no matter how little evidence there was to support that idea. I hate the very idea of blind faith.
Post by
TheMediator
Every time I read one of Skeeran's posts I gain more and more respect for him. The only way I could see someone continuing to argue with him is if they just flat out don't see how wrong they are.
Post by
MyTie
Skreeran, and TheMediator
Let's say you are right, and every religious person was wrong. Let's say that there is no God, for hypothetical sake, since such a thing cannot be proven or disproven. If you are completely right in your facts, then you are still making a mistake in how you approach people.
For example: If my next door neighbor believed the earth was flat, I wouldn't kick his door in and start bashing his face in until he stopped being so ignorant.
You all need to do yourselves a favor, and lighten your tone quite a bit.
Both of you are being very vicious. Telling people they are: brainwashed into believing things that don't exist that they then use to justify whatever they see fit to do.
and things like But all of that is just a part of why I hate religion. The majority of it, the core of it, is my hatred for human ignorance. I don't mean ignorance as "intolerance," as it's come to connotate, but the true form of the word. I hate that 45% of American adults actually believe that the Earth was created in 6 days 6000-10,000 years ago, despite not only the lack of evidence for their claims, but the heaps of evidence to the contrary. and again The only way I could see someone continuing to argue with him is if they just flat out don't see how wrong they are.Perhaps an effort needs to be made on your parts to at least feign civility? I don't even want to begin discussing the actual topic, until we can cut down the flames and hatred.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I have to say I agree. I felt the same way towards christians who would harass me for my beliefs, and threaten me with eternal damnation if I didn't change my ways. If they'd focused on talking about the goods aspects of their faith (helping out the needy, loving their fellow man) instead of judging me for being different I might have felt differently about it. I'd have still had lots of questions about all the logical holes in the things they were telling me but I'd have been more willing to listen instead of being driven away.
Agreed. Both sides have to be civil, or these discussions accomplish nothing.
Post by
Skreeran
At school now, so I can't well continue much discussion, but I will say this: I have the sneaking suspicion that you wouldn't change your mind no matter what tone I use. I'm pretty much given up on convincing you of your incorrectness, because none of you seem willing to give up what has been imprinted on your minds as truth. It is for this reason that I've reserved my true and earnest attempts at changing minds on this matter for my closest friends who will actually consider what I say.
I've already deconverted one of my friends, and my sister is close. I've tried to convince you people over the internet before, and it never works, so I've stopped trying. Right now I'm only really arguing because I enjoy arguing.
Post by
MyTie
At school now, so I can't well continue much discussion, but I will say this: I have the sneaking suspicion that you wouldn't change your mind no matter what tone I use. I'm pretty much given up on convincing you of your incorrectness, because none of you seem willing to give up what has been imprinted on your minds as truth. It is for this reason that I've reserved my true and earnest attempts at changing minds on this matter for my closest friends who will actually consider what I say.
I've already deconverted one of my friends, and my sister is close. I've tried to convince you people over the internet before, and it never works, so I've stopped trying. Right now I'm only really arguing because I enjoy arguing.
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter who is right and wrong. It matters that you are being uncivil. It needs to stop. Some people in this thread would like to have a competent and respectful discussion on religion. If you can't take part in that, then you need to stop coming into this thread.I'm only really arguing because I enjoy arguing.That is the wrong attitude to have. No wonder you haven't had a lot of luck convincing people.
Post by
TheMediator
No, I get what Skeeran is getting at. When you lay out the facts and a logical argument and the counter argument is "Nuh uh!", the only thing you can really do is beat them over the head with it until they get it.
I wouldn't care what people believed if it didn't lead them to making bad choices. I know this guy who is an extreme Jesus freak, and basically he believes that all the desires he feels are God's way of acting through him, so he goes to middle schools and tries to attract young 12-14 year old girls (he's 21) because that's what makes him feel good. He even jokes about kidnapping them and raping them, and I seriously wonder if he gets an impulse to do it if he'll act on it, because he believes he has a direct line of communication with God (basically its ok to be schizo if you call it "faith"). Yes, anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure there's a fair number of these people. I get some messed up thoughts in my head sometimes, but at least I know that those thoughts are merely my subconscious trying to get me to act against my better reasoning.
Post by
Squishalot
Unless the Hewbrews had enough "faith" that Moses (or whoever it was that actually came up with these things) was the mouth of their god that they would believe that whatever he said was right.
You see, this is where your logic fails. Let's go back to the beginning, when religion was created. One of the following two scenarios would have likely taken place (from an atheist view):
a) Moses is a leader of the community, and is generally well respected. The people he lives with are weak-to-strong agnostic - they're not sure about a God, but there may be one. So he creates a set of laws to live by - ideals that the community share in common, and fashions this into a message that this is how aforementioned God would want them to live. Even if they don't truly believe that said God exists, they all agree, these laws represent the core values of their community. So they bind it together in a book and pass it down, generation to generation, and slowly, a belief in this God appears in future generations - much the same as Santa Claus, except that Santa can be disproven.
b) Moses is a charlatan. The people he lives with are weak agnostic - very unsure about there being a God or otherwise. Moses sees this as an opportunity to seize power. He stages a show that convinces the agnostic people that he's the high prophet of a God, and drafts up a set of laws, and because people feel the sociological need to be bossed around, they all follow these laws and pass on its teachings, generation to generation, and slowly, a belief in this God appears in future generatinos.
The point is - at one stage or another, for Leviticus to become widely accepted, people would have needed to accept that message. Key point - they would either have to have believed it in the first place (i.e. Leviticus is a record of the community values at the time of writing), or they would have to have been convinced that the writer represented God (in which case, there would have been a convincing tool).
It's hard to imagine that someone could have just walked along and said "I'm the high priest of God, come follow these restrictive laws", and everyone followed because they're a pack of idiots. Seriously - how do you think religion came to be? If you don't buy it easily now, what makes you think that the religion's originators would've bought it easily then?
Let's go back to Islam for a moment. In the Middle East, they can use religion to justify beating their wives to show them who's boss, and it is considered the girl's fault if she is raped, because that's what their religious leaders tells them. These attitudes don't form in a vacuum. Religion does not only constitute the religious texts. All of these people who believe in Young Earth Creationism and the End Times and Homosexuality as an atrocious abomination learn these things not only from their Bibles, Torahs, and Korans, but from their religious leaders and religious teaching taught to them by their parents. From birth they are brainwashed into believing things that don't exist that they then use to justify whatever they see fit to do.
I'm going to take a leaf out of the comic Erfworld. Religion is like Thinkamancy in Erfworld - the ability to influence other people's thoughts. At the end of the day, Thinkamancy can only influence in subtle ways - it can't turn an ant into a lion. At the end, your actions under a Thinkamancy spell will be something that you may not have done without the spell, but some part of you wanted to do it.
I think Religion is very similar. I don't think that Christianity or Islam will turn someone into a homophobe, if everything else in their lives didn't lead them down that path in the first place. Some part of them wants to hate on gays, lesbians, and evolutionary scientists.
I agree that the attitudes don't form in a vacuum. But it's pretty telling that so many American Christians can come out with the attitudes that you're suggesting, that so many Australian Christians think are laughable. Christianity is the aspect in common, so the difference in views must be attributable to other aspects, such as environment. So again, don't blame religion. I'd rather blame the education system for not teaching you to think.
Every time I read one of Skeeran's posts I gain more and more respect for him. The only way I could see someone continuing to argue with him is if they just flat out don't see how wrong they are.
If you think that someone who continually preaches hate on people with different beliefs is someone to be respected, then I know a few Muftis that I can introduce you to. This is classic intolerance. This is why I've kept trying to reinforce - bring the player, not the class; bring the person, not the religious stereotype.
The world, and religion, is bigger than America. And the quicker you guys wake up to that fact, the quicker you'll go on to be productive members of society, rather than atheist QQ'ers, which is how you come across now. Currently, you're the ones crying out about the huntards, while you're standing around dying in fires. Grow up and learn some respect, for ALL people.
I know this guy who is an extreme Jesus freak, and basically he believes that all the desires he feels are God's way of acting through him, so he goes to middle schools and tries to attract young 12-14 year old girls (he's 21) because that's what makes him feel good. He even jokes about kidnapping them and raping them, and I seriously wonder if he gets an impulse to do it if he'll act on it, because he believes he has a direct line of communication with God (basically its ok to be schizo if you call it "faith").
I know an atheist guy who honestly doesn't give a crap what he does or what anyone thinks about him, because he figures this is his life, and when he dies, it's all over and nobody can give him crap. Idiots come from all theist and non-theist groups. As I said before, pull your head out of your arse and realise that not everyone cares about the wacked up society that is kids in America these days.
Post by
TheMediator
Dodge and dip around for 30 pages, then call your opponent an unproductive member of society. Good work.
If you don't buy it easily now, what makes you think that the religion's originators would've bought it easily then?
Because most people had little understanding of the world and had little means to seek out understanding. Are you serious?
Post by
MyTie
No, I get what Skeeran is getting at. When you lay out the facts and a logical argument and the counter argument is "Nuh uh!", the only thing you can really do is beat them over the head with it until they get it.
I feel differently. Confronting stupidity should not be done by making an idiot of yourself.
Post by
Skreeran
You see, this is where your logic fails. Let's go back to the beginning, when religion was created. One of the following two scenarios would have likely taken place (from an atheist view):
a) Moses is a leader of the community, and is generally well respected. The people he lives with are weak-to-strong agnostic - they're not sure about a God, but there may be one. So he creates a set of laws to live by - ideals that the community share in common, and fashions this into a message that this is how aforementioned God would want them to live. Even if they don't truly believe that said God exists, they all agree, these laws represent the core values of their community. So they bind it together in a book and pass it down, generation to generation, and slowly, a belief in this God appears in future generations - much the same as Santa Claus, except that Santa can be disproven.
b) Moses is a charlatan. The people he lives with are weak agnostic - very unsure about there being a God or otherwise. Moses sees this as an opportunity to seize power. He stages a show that convinces the agnostic people that he's the high prophet of a God, and drafts up a set of laws, and because people feel the sociological need to be bossed around, they all follow these laws and pass on its teachings, generation to generation, and slowly, a belief in this God appears in future generatinos.
The point is - at one stage or another, for Leviticus to become widely accepted, people would have needed to accept that message. Key point - they would either have to have believed it in the first place (i.e. Leviticus is a record of the community values at the time of writing), or they would have to have been convinced that the writer represented God (in which case, there would have been a convincing tool).
It's hard to imagine that someone could have just walked along and said "I'm the high priest of God, come follow these restrictive laws", and everyone followed because they're a pack of idiots. Seriously - how do you think religion came to be? If you don't buy it easily now, what makes you think that the religion's originators would've bought it easily then?Or c) “Moses” (or whoever it was) was a charismatic and persuasive extremist, who believed not only that he could speak to god, but who the people also believed was god's chosen leader. The Hebrews already had an innate homophobia (because you're right, it's not totally religious in nature) and Moses, being an extremist, declared that not only were the people's suspicions correct, and that there was something wrong with these people, but that they were an abomination to god and they had to be killed. Hitler did much the same with the Germans in the 30s. The Germans already had a mistrust of the Jews, and Hitler, a charismatic extremist rose to power and declared that they were vermin to be exterminated. Moses would have had even more ability to declare whatever laws he liked, since the people believed they were coming from god himself.
As for religions origins itself, I would imagine that it would arise from a combination of prehistoric mysticism (sun worship and the like), and early attempts at piecing together of how the world worked. They wouldn't understand that wind was caused by warm air rising and cool air taking it's place, they would have just guessed that it was akin to their own breath. They wouldn't know what caused thunder, they would just think the gods were angry. “Hey, a huge fire just burned that city of Sodomites to the ground! God must hate them! Let's not do what they do!” And so on.
Oh, and Santa Claus cannot be disproven. Just try it.
I agree that the attitudes don't form in a vacuum. But it's pretty telling that so many American Christians can come out with the attitudes that you're suggesting, that so many Australian Christians think are laughable. Christianity is the aspect in common, so the difference in views must be attributable to other aspects, such as environment. So again, don't blame religion. I'd rather blame the education system for not teaching you to think.Oh, it's religion, alright. When your parents teach you that gods hates gay people, that they will burn in hell, that evolution is wrong and creationism is right, that these are the End Times and that the Red Sea literally parted and Balem's donkey literally spoke to him, you adopt the same beliefs. Your parents got their beliefs from their parents, who got them from their parents. Your pastors and other religious leaders talk all about miracles and faith healing and hell and the evils of evolution. That's religion. People being brought up to believe that the invisible man in the sky who created the universe in six days 6000-10,000 years ago and who will send all the gays to hell are the ones that are blockading the school system. People are born as a blank slate. Tabula rasa. When this sort of thing is instilled into them from such an early age, it influences how they think. You don't see the Hindus or Buddhists persecuting homosexuals, because that isn't part of what they are taught. The people who are taught that homosexuality is an abomination unto god are the ones that do that.
If you think that someone who continually preaches hate on people with different beliefs is someone to be respected, then I know a few Muftis that I can introduce you to. This is classic intolerance. This is why I've kept trying to reinforce - bring the player, not the class; bring the person, not the religious stereotype.
The world, and religion, is bigger than America. And the quicker you guys wake up to that fact, the quicker you'll go on to be productive members of society, rather than atheist QQ'ers, which is how you come across now. Currently, you're the ones crying out about the huntards, while you're standing around dying in fires. Grow up and learn some respect, for ALL people.I don't aspire to change the world. I personally can do little to change the dominance of religion on human thought since prehistory. However, I believe the first step to change is to get mad. Passive, nice people get pushed aside. Quite voices get drowned out.
Look at the civil right movement. That didn't start because people were nice and quite and respectful. It happened because people had had enough and decided to do something about it. Only people who are passionate about the issues can make any real change, not the quite people asking nicely to please stop the persecution.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
You guys are kinda dumb...
Every time I read one of Skeeran's posts I gain more and more respect for him. The only way I could see someone continuing to argue with him is if they just flat out don't see how wrong they are.
I feel I am right. You feel you are right.
However you have the distinction of being a bastard who can't realize that people believe other things then you yet you continually try to say "I am right you are wrong lolzers get over it!"
Wrong. I am firm in my faith because I have seen evidence that God exists. You won't take that as evidence however because you are firm in your belief God doesn't exist. Thus, why should i listen to you if you won't listen to me?
Get it now?
Post by
Adamsm
As I've said before, my faith is firm, and no one will change that heh.
Post by
499948
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
487010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
You guys are kinda dumb...
Every time I read one of Skeeran's posts I gain more and more respect for him. The only way I could see someone continuing to argue with him is if they just flat out don't see how wrong they are.
I feel I am right. You feel you are right.
However you have the distinction of being a bastard who can't realize that people believe other things then you yet you continually try to say "I am right you are wrong lolzers get over it!"
Wrong. I am firm in my faith because I have seen evidence that God exists. You won't take that as evidence however because you are firm in your belief God doesn't exist. Thus, why should i listen to you if you won't listen to me?
Get it now?
Evidence? What evidence? Do you have pictures of actual angels, a video of a man killing a thousand men with a donkey's jawbone, etc. etc.? Really, saying "Mountains look atheistically pleasing", is not evidence. And to those who say there isn't evidence against the existence of the God described in the Bible, the existence of things like evolution, radiation that came from the Big Bang, etc. run directly counter to what is said in the Bible.
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