This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Is horde seriously over-rated?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
HiVolt
Turalyon and the Windrunners send them packing though...and the key point is that it was insuccessful in its aim; crippling Quel'thalas out of the war. Kinda backfired though, didn't it? The reinforcements from Quel'thalas then relieved the siege of Lordaeron though, which can't really be ignored.
But Turalyon and the Windrunners didn't send them packing. The Horde just moved on to the next target, feeling that the job they had set out to complete in Quel'thalas was finished. It is never stated that the intention of the movement into Quel'thalas was specifically to cripple Silvermoon completely out of the war. The point of the movement into Quel'thalas was to establish a base of operation in Northern EK, which they did and then some.
It wasn't until the Horde was on its retreat that Silvermoon was able to fully bounce back from the attack and contribute all of the remaining forces it had.
I mean, why did Alleria go insane for revenge if her homeland wasn't thoroughly raped and pillaged and most of her family killed?
Nah, the Horde did exactly what they planned to do with Quel'thalas, and that was pwn the hell out of it.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah, but it was the Dark Horde that did it all, not the New Horde heh, after all, if it was the new Horde, they wouldn't be allied with the Blood Elves now would they.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Yeah, but it was the Dark Horde that did it all, not the New Horde heh, after all, if it was the new Horde, they wouldn't be allied with the Blood Elves now would they.
Eh, semantics. A Horde victory is still a Horde victory, regardless of being fueled by demon blood. But, if we want to stick to New Horde victories, there are still plenty to choose from.
On the contarary, the Horde was getting thier ass kicked nearly all of the Second War. At the start, they got sent back at every turn. If they tried to invade through Arathi, Stromgarde would go all Sparta on them. The Horde tried to invade from above, and they got buried in Quel'Thalas. If the Horde tried to invade by sea, Kul Tiras and the Wildhammers would send them drowning. Even a simple invasion of Hillsbrad was ended by a simple hit-and-run technique.
If Aiden had not betrayed the Alliance, then the Horde would never make any progress whatsoever. And thats only one key. The Horde had several advantages, but stilll lost.
And Gul'dan didn't take half the Horde's forces (I hate it when people think this...), he took half the forces simply stationed outside Lordaeron.
No, the Horde only started getting their asses kicked after Gul'dan's betrayal. If you remember right, the dreadnaughts that the Horde made to house their troops at sea, were so large that thousands of soldiers could be housed within them. Gul'dan took three of those, out of the few they had in the fleet that went to Lordaeron.
They were stopped from taking Hillsbrad, but that was only one battleship that tried to take it. They sent the rest to the Hinterlands. Most of the forces from that battle moved northward into Quel'thalas and the Alliance still had trouble taking out what was deployed near Aerie Peak.
Quel'thalas was defeated, plain and simple. I can quote passages from Tides of Darkness if needed for that.
They were defeated in the Second War only because of Gul'dan's betrayal.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah, but it was the Dark Horde that did it all, not the New Horde heh, after all, if it was the new Horde, they wouldn't be allied with the Blood Elves now would they.
Eh, semantics. A Horde victory is still a Horde victory, regardless of being fueled by demon blood. But, if we want to stick to New Horde victories, there are still plenty to choose from.
Heh, lots of people will knife you over those semantics.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
They were already in Quel'thalas by the time of Aiden's betrayal.
Burning
Quel'thalas.
They were already on their way to Capital City, Aiden just made it easier.
Post by
61232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Quel'thalas was defeated, plain and simple. I can quote passages from Tides of Darkness if needed for that.
Please do, I'd like to see how they could be defeated if the Horde never even made it to capital city.
Well first, the Horde was laying siege to the outer walls of Capital City during Gul'dan's betrayal. That's when Doomhammer sent Rend and Maim after him.
Also, I can't seem to find my copy of Tides of Darkness, but as soon as I'll do, I'll cite sources for everything that I've said. Though, after thinking about it, the part where I said "one battleship tried to take Hillsbrad", I may have been mistaken there, but I know it was no more than a couple. All the rest of my statements, I stand behind completely.
I still hold firm to the fact that the Horde was winning the Second War, and that had it not been for Gul'dan's betrayal, they would have been completely victorious.
If anyone else is with me on the idea, but can cite sources, please do, as I really have no idea where this damn book is. Looked for it for two hours last night.
Post by
Skreeran
Well first, the Horde was laying siege to the outer walls of Capital City during Gul'dan's betrayal. That's when Doomhammer sent Rend and Maim after him.
Also, I can't seem to find my copy of Tides of Darkness, but as soon as I'll do, I'll cite sources for everything that I've said. Though, after thinking about it, the part where I said "one battleship tried to take Hillsbrad", I may have been mistaken there, but I know it was no more than a couple. All the rest of my statements, I stand behind completely.
I still hold firm to the fact that the Horde was winning the Second War, and that had it not been for Gul'dan's betrayal, they would have been completely victorious.
If anyone else is with me on the idea, but can cite sources, please do, as I really have no idea where this damn book is. Looked for it for two hours last night.I have my book, but I don't want to reread it at the moment.
I tried shoving it through my monitor to you, but that didn't work either.
But I stand behind you 100 percent.
Post by
HiVolt
I have my book, but I don't want to reread it at the moment.
I tried shoving it through my monitor to you, but that didn't work either.
But I stand behind you 100 percent.
Hehe, well I do appreciate the moral support.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I still think the Horde would have won. At this point the Horde held all of the kingdom of Azeroth, most of Khaz Modan (they had Ironforge totally incapacitated), and taken a good portion of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas.
If the Alliance hadn't beaten them at that point, I doubt they would have beaten them at all, without Gul'dan's betrayal. If I recall, the majority of the army was in the south, trying to catch up to the Horde at the time that Aiden betrayed the Alliance. Who's to say that Orgrim wouldn't just have blown through what is now the plaguelands on his way to the capital, if Alterac wasn't accessible?
Post by
Rankkor
as it happens with most wars, there's allways 1 battle that completely defines who wins or loses the combat.
in the nexus war it was the invation to the eye of eternity, in the first war it was the siege of stormwind, in the third war it was the battle at mount hyjal, in the war of the ancients it was the siege of zin-azari............
on the second war that great battle that defined who won and who lost it was the battle at blackrock spire.
the full force of the alliance, pretty much THE ENTIRE MILITARY FORCES OF THE ALLIANCE, lead by their mightiest heroes, faced off against barely 30% of the horde.
cuz gul'dan had taken 50% with him, and the other 20% was at grim batol.
and even then, facing barely 30% of the enemy the alliance still barely won, it wasn't a 1sided battle, even facing numerical disadvantage the horde still was hard as hell to break.
in the end, after suffering EXTREME LOSES, and losing their best heroes, the alliance won.
again only because they fought 30% of their enemy, had the horde been in there at full power, there was no way in hell the alliance could had won.
all other battles, all other conflicts on the second war fall squat when compared to the battle at blackrock spire, it was there that the war was defined, whoever had won there would had won the war.
the alliance WAS getting their asses handed to them in a silver plate, getting beated up battle after battle after battle, only winning minor skirmishes.
then they rallied at mass force, and only because of gul'dan's betrayal, they won.
it takes a serious level in bad-ass to face the enemy having only 30% of your forces and still give'em hell.
regardless of whatever anyone else may say, lore backs it up, even the manual of warcraft 3 says it perfectly clear and bluntly, gul'dan costed the horde it's victory, plain and simple.
the alliance was getting brutalized, losing everyere even getting backstabbed by people like aiden, it took a miracle for them to win.
Post by
Adamsm
cuz gul'dan had taken 50% with him, and the other 20% was at grim batol.Shadowmoon and Twilight Hammer were 50% heh? I think your number might be a little high Rank, maybe closer to like 30%; 10-15 of the traitors, and the 15-20 percent that chased after him heh.
Post by
Rankkor
well, do take in consideration that those were the largest clans among the horde next to the warsong and blackrock clans, and BTW both you and me are forgetting a third clan.
yhea gul'dan took 3 clans with him, and indeed one was shadowmoon, the other was twillight, can't remember the third one.
I know they are 3 cuz of that mission on frozen throne were maiev watches the 3 clans's ghostly remains fighting each other.
my point remains addams, on the blackrock mountain, the alliance was fighting at full strenght, whereas the horde was fighting with diminished forces, and even then it wasn't a 1sided battle in favor of the alliance.
even with inferior numbers the battle was still evened out.
had the horde been present there at full strenght the alliance would had never stood a chance, and after losing at blackrock, the rest of the alliance to fall or sell themselves to the horde woudn't had taken long.
the point both voltage skree and myself wanna stress out here, is that the horde beated the snot out of the alliance on the first war, and did so again on the second war, and would had won if it wasn't for gul'dan.
some alliance fans wanna hint that the alliance could had won even if gul'dan hadn't betrayed the horde, but that woudn't had happened, fact is, blackrock would had been a horde victory if the 3 missing clans were there.
Edit: it was the Stormreaver and twillight hammer that gul'dan took with him, and doomhammer sent a large segment of the blackrock clan after him to kill him (a little too late for that rite? XD)
Post by
Adamsm
Aye, but as I said earlier in the thread; that was the Dark Horde.... and I thought most New Horde people disliked people making a connection to them lol. Yes, the separating of the forces had a huge effect on the outcome... but they were fighting a losing battle all the way to the Mountain, which wasn't helped when the Dwarves came broiling out of Ironforge and helped to force them back more.
Let's admit something though; without Gul'dan and the Shadow Council, as well as Medivh, Stormwind wouldn't have fallen to the Horde; I think if Lothar had been there instead of off dealing with the demon-infested Medivh and Karazhan, he might have been able to stop the war then and there. And of course, the assassination plot by the Shadow Council didn't help either heh; had they not taken out Llane like they did, they also would have been up against his considerable conflict knowledge.
For the Second War.... most of the victories against the Elven forces wouldn't have occurred without the backing of the Forest Trolls, and Deathwing and his manipulations to get the Red flight under the control of the Horde. The orcs did suffer some losses before freeing Zul'jin and gaining the short cuts and pathways through the rune shields. The Wildhammers also slowed the Horde forces down to a crawl when they entered the Hinterlands, with the Grand Alliance forces doing heavy damage when they caught them in the pincher.
As for Aiden.... well, had Stromgarde not been so focused on dealing with the betrayal of Alterac, they would have been there on the lines striking against the orcs and the trolls, and considering how they were described for fighting in the mountains, they would have had the advantage against the orcs in the pass and valleys.
It's hard to figure out something like this, after all, in Tides of Darkness and Beyond the Dark Portal games, you could see the effect of both sides 'winning' after all.
Post by
Rankkor
that was the Dark Horde.... and I thought most New Horde people disliked people making a connection to them lol
and believe me I don't, for me old horde =/= new horde, but in their morals, and in their alingment.
as far as strenght goes, they are still orcs, even with the lack of the demonic empowerment (or perhaps because of it) orcs are still a fighting force to be reckoned with, and in a standard 1 on 1 fight, most orcs would defeat any human, save for extraordinary circunstances.
as for the strenght of the old horde, vs the strenght of the new horde, we no longer have ogres, but have tauren wich are even stronger, cuz they have the muscles but aren't so stupid.......
we no longer have jungle trolls, but have darkspear trolls, so it's evened out.
we no longer have goblins, but that's gonna change in cataclysm.
and to add more in that mix, there's the blood-elves (some of the most gifted arcane spellcasters in the world, and indeed the ones who actually taugth humans how to wield it).
=/ I consider the forsaken to be a weak link, I wish they weren't part of the horde.
I recognize the alliance also has their strenghts, but to be honest, in the wars of the past, whenever humans and orcs have clashed, it has ended bad for the humans, mostly because orcs know no fear, but humans....... well let's just say not all of them are brave, they also have cowards among their numbers.
the valiance keep deserters, and the theramoore deserters kinda prove that.
is good that the alliance also has night-elves and draenei among their numbers, because (to my knoledge) these 2 races are NOT cowards, at least I can't recall the first coward or desertor among them (the valiance keep derserters in warsong hold are all humans dwarves and gnomes)
without Gul'dan and the Shadow Council, as well as Medivh, Stormwind wouldn't have fallen to the Horde
I disagree with that opinion, that keep was gonna fall one way or another, the actions of the shadow council, the distraction of medivh, and the assassination of king Llane only sped up the inevitable, I believe that even if these events hadn't happened, the keep would had still fallen.
Post by
Adamsm
I recognize the alliance also has their strenghts, but to be honest, in the wars of the past, whenever humans and orcs have clashed, it has ended bad for the humans, mostly because orcs know no fear, but humans....... well let's just say not all of them are brave, they also have cowards among their numbers.Everyone has fear. And there are cowards among all the races, Horde and Alliance. As I've said, I haven't done Northrend quests Horde side, but the Theramore deserters didn't desert the army because of 'fear', they left because they didn't want to serve Jaina and make 'nice' with the Horde, they would rather kill them... and they attack those they see as traitors(other Alliance members).
without Gul'dan and the Shadow Council, as well as Medivh, Stormwind wouldn't have fallen to the Horde
I disagree with that opinion, that keep was gonna fall one way or another, the actions of the shadow council, the distraction of medivh, and the assassination of king Llane only sped up the inevitable, I believe that even if these events hadn't happened, the keep would had still fallen.
And I don't; the Humans were used to the Horde by this time, as were the horses, so the original shock and awe by the 'greenskinned invaders' had worn off. Without Medivh killing off the conjurers of Stormwind, they would have been at full power magically, and they had been holding their own against the orc warlocks. Stormwind fell due to the chaos caused by the death of Medivh and Llane, without that, and with Lothar there leading the armies, they would have probably driven them off.
Post by
Monday
I recognize the alliance also has their strenghts, but to be honest, in the wars of the past, whenever humans and orcs have clashed, it has ended bad for the humans,
Second War ring a bell?
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.