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In Garosh's defence...
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Post by
Adamsm
Well, there is this.
And you would be incorrect, given that the Old Horde is pretty much always used to refer to the demon-tainted orcs who eventually invaded Azeroth, and the Dark Horde is something else entirely.Then what do you consider the original civilization of the Orcs?
Post by
367020
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Honestly... yes. You act like the orcs never held a weapon till they were corrupted, that they didn't know anything about fighting among themselves. You've said before that aggression is a thing of the past for the orcs... but it's not, it's still a huge part of them, even Thrall has it, he just keeps it buried deep under his training at the hands of Blackmoore. The only difference between Garrosh and Thrall is the way they were raised. And I've never painted the Horde as 'dark as Varian' tries to, I merely look at things from the long view.
Ok.
1 - I have actully read rise of the horde several times, as well as the warcraft legends story of Draka, so got a pretty clear view on what the orcs of draenor were like. I makes it so I'm able to at least see there faults and vertues of there past without just writing them off as brainless savages.
2 - You could just as easily say Varian, Lothar and Arthas are practically the same, but had different upbringings. Thats being just purely dismissing to say one person could be just as good as another because of that reason.
And honestly, I think you have been drawing on the hordes negative points more often these days then there positives.
Post by
Adamsm
The orcs. Or the original orcish civilization. Calling them the Horde in any form is a misnomer, given they took on that name once they drank the blood and began hitting Azeroth. Calling it the "Old Horde" when every other source uses that label for the demon-tainted Horde is incorrect. Even Uncorrupted Horde works better, even if it could be confused for Thrall's Horde.Fine, I'll start using Uncorrupted Horde.
1 - I have actully read rise of the horde several times, as well as the warcraft legends story of Draka, so got a pretty clear view on what the orcs of draenor were like. I makes it so I'm able to at least see there faults and vertues of there past without just writing them off as brainless savages.I've never said they were brainless savages; if anything, they draw on parallels with the native americans, before the white man arrived, or in the Draenor case the Draenei. And as you've proved before, you don't know much about the Natives, or were you not the one who said that before the white man arrived, they had never fought any wars?
2 - You could just as easily say Varian, Lothar and Arthas are practically the same, but had different upbringings. Thats being just purely dismissing to say one person could be just as good as another because of that reason.Sure you could; after all, without Varian there to prove his superiority in so many things, Arthas would never have had his little personality or self-esteem problems. Lothar was raised in the court of Stormwind and friends with both Medivh and Llane, without that, he wouldn't have been the great military person he was. Even Varian is shaped by his past, the good and the bad.
And honestly, I think you have been drawing on the hordes negative points more often these days then there positives.No, merely trying to keep the QQ about Garrosh from drowning the L&RP boards.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I've never said they were brainless savages; if anything, they draw on parallels with the native americans, before the white man arrived, or in the Draenor case the Draenei. And as you've proved before, you don't know much about the Natives, or were you not the one who said that before the white man arrived, they had never fought any wars?
You got the same proof as I have to that argument. You don't know that the clans ever did or didn't go to all our bloody warfair with each other, yet your here claiming they did like you know more then anyone else. And the war I'm refering to is, obviously, what they became like after they were corrupted, try and keep up Adams.
Fine, I'll start using Uncorrupted Horde.
Actully that doesn't work either. They weren't even the horde back then. they became the horde after they were being corrupted.
Post by
Adamsm
I've never said they were brainless savages; if anything, they draw on parallels with the native americans, before the white man arrived, or in the Draenor case the Draenei. And as you've proved before, you don't know much about the Natives, or were you not the one who said that before the white man arrived, they had never fought any wars?
You got the same proof as I have to that argument. You don't know that the clans ever did or didn't go to all our bloody warfair with each other, yet your here claiming they did like you know more then anyone else. And the war I'm refering to is, obviously, what they became like after they were corrupted, try and keep up Adams.
.........You know, it's not worth it at all. All I'm going to say here is just what you see in Rise of the Horde; that it took a massive threat to make all the Clans form up into one thing, that before then they remained separate except for a yearly gathering, and from things they say, it's obvious there is some conflict among them.
As for the corruption; that's nothing more then their natural aggression increased even more... or are you trying to say that the Warsong and the Blackrocks didn't enjoy the battles they had against the Draenei before they drank the blood of Mannoroth?
Post by
taurenmoo812
I've never said they were brainless savages; if anything, they draw on parallels with the native americans, before the white man arrived, or in the Draenor case the Draenei. And as you've proved before, you don't know much about the Natives, or were you not the one who said that before the white man arrived, they had never fought any wars?
You got the same proof as I have to that argument. You don't know that the clans ever did or didn't go to all our bloody warfair with each other, yet your here claiming they did like you know more then anyone else. And the war I'm refering to is, obviously, what they became like after they were corrupted, try and keep up Adams.
.........You know, it's not worth it at all. All I'm going to say here is just what you see in Rise of the Horde; that it took a massive threat to make all the Clans form up into one thing, that before then they remained separate except for a yearly gathering, and from things they say, it's obvious there is some conflict among them.
As for the corruption; that's nothing more then their natural aggression increased even more... or are you trying to say that the Warsong and the Blackrocks didn't enjoy the battles they had against the Draenei before they drank the blood of Mannoroth?
They didn't need to blood of mannoroth to be corrupted to begin with. you seem to have forgotten that point. Under the legions influence, every part of the culture and society was melted away, there spirital belief, there connection to the spirits and elements, and even the enviroments around them fell to corruption just as they did. See I can turn this back on itself and say your assuming the orcs culture wasn't corrupted until they drank the blood, which simply, it was, long before they touched the blood.
And yeah, the blackrock and warsong clan were more violent, but unless you can give me hard proof, there were never anything to suggest their clans were ever at war with any other, and there violence was only sated when they killed the draenei after the orcs were being driven to do so.
Post by
Adamsm
They didn't need to blood of mannoroth to be corrupted to begin with. you seem to have forgotten that point. Under the legions influence, every part of the culture and society was melted away, there spirital belief, there connection to the spirits and elements, and even the enviroments around them fell to corruption just as they did. See I can turn this back on itself and say your assuming the orcs culture wasn't corrupted until they drank the blood, which simply, it was, long before they touched the blood.I'm not saying it wasn't, kindly stop putting words in my mouth Tauren, as you ask so many others not to do that. Yes, after the Legion found the world, they started destroying the Orc culture... so, according to you, that's it eh? There is no chance at all that Mag'har raised the younger orcs who didn't go into battle on the stories of the old days, before the corruption? That only the Frostwolf stayed pure out of all them?
And yeah, the blackrock and warsong clan were more violent, but unless you can give me hard proof, there were never anything to suggest their clans were ever at war with any other, and there violence was only sated when they killed the draenei after the orcs were being driven to do so.They weren't all friends; remember, Durotan and Orgrim's friendship was the exception not the rule. You saw it in the early battles; the clans didn't want to fight with other clans, they wanted to keep their war parties separate and apart like they were at the gathering. It was only after the introduction of the Warlocks and more of the corruption that they started grouping up more. They might not have been at each other throats... but remember one of the rules of the yearly gathering; No weapons, to keep blood feuds from erupting, so obviously, just like everywhere else where there are sentient beings you have race vs race fights.
Post by
514575
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Well I'd say Garrosh see's the flaws of the Dark Horde. When he was first discovered he thought the Horde still exists as the evil manipulated one and that his father was to blame. It was'nt until he learned of the new Horde and what his father did for it that he had his new spark for war and pride. I see this as him trying to defend this new Horde from Varian and the "non-Jaina" type Alliance. He is going about this defence in the classic Hellscream manner. after all look at what his father did prior to redemption.
You mean drinking demons blood twice in order to fight back. Fact being corrupting your people a second time to save them was the only method Grom had to use then in ashenvale. It never was the right move, but it was the only thing he had.
Post by
514575
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Post by
Rankkor
why-o-why did you had to necro this thread just to say that?
/face-palm
Post by
Monday
The royal apothacary society was willing to betray the Horde and was dealt with properly by the Alliance. Why chase the whole Horde for one renagade faction? He's just looking for an excuse. It'd be like wanting all dwarves dead just because of the Dark Irons or wanting Stormwind raized to the ground because of the Defiace gang.
Never mind the fact both of those you mentioned are separate entities, while the RAS was officially part of the Forsaken.
Post by
541095
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Post by
drame
sorry if i havn't followed every post up to date so im just posting to the OP more or less :) - Also my english/punctuation might stink very badly, please excuse me for that, or at least for now ^_^.
While misspelling the name of the fictional character your defending makes you a bad credability, ill just overlook that for now.
1- Garrosh will probably not be killing Cairne despite what MMoChampion tells you my EVIDENCE (mmochamp has none) for this statement is this picture courtesy of wowwiki:
http://www.wowwiki.com/File:Thrall_%26_Cairne_saving_babies.jpg
this clearly depicts Cairne alive and kickin' with Thrall saving kids. That is not to say he will remain in Thunder Bluff he is with Thrall who is leaving which brings me to my next point...
This is not really enough to disprove the current guess, i know I'm probably formulating myself badly here, but 1 picture of something that easily could happen before the whole ordeal with Garrosh killing. So far the "evidence" of Garrosh ending Caine is way bigger than what 1 picture can show us.
2-Thrall, like it or not is a diplomat I am a Horde loyalist and Thrall is, I will confess, my hero. Like minded players both Horde and Alliance are not impressed with Thrall's leaving however Deathwing's arrival will leave his hands full. Thrall is noble yes but he is'nt God (c'mon we all know that's Saurfang x D). It is exactly this nobility that is driving him to leave the Alliance/Horde conflicts and take a nuetral Shamanistic approach to the disasters.
I agree a bit here, Thrall is limited to what he actually can do by himself, but i dont think he will take a
neutral
approach as one would think, Shamanism doesn't necesarrily mean neutral, it means balance as far as im informed, and i dont think he is leaving the horde/alliance conflict as much as he, as you said, have his hands full meaning he takes on the jobs that needs the most attention, and being a shaman that means helping the earth etc.
3-For those that call Garrosh a warmonger, (I'm not denying it) if we're gonna start namecalling and pointing fingers let's not forget who started this imminent war and recall Varion declaring open war on the Horde after the reclaiming of Undercity. Or who in the Yogg Saron opening trailer laid down the challenge to Garrosh and started the fight in the first place leaving with (I quote) "I'm done with your Horde, May this deathgod take you all". Thrall is a nice guy, enough of a nice guy to scramble for an impossible peace while the Alliance walks all over him. Garrosh will take trash from noone. This will prove usefull in the upcoming war.
This whole thing was one big kid scenario
"your stupid!"
"oh yer? Well your ugly!" *fight ensues*
So honestly i dont care for either of them, they both acted like small children, which was stupid, this is also another point thats probably to subjective to say anything at all.
4- All lore aside this is ideal for plot development I am by no means a blood mad warmonger in real life but I find this change of direction refreshing. It is called WARcraft after all not "hold your enemy's hand"-craft. The "tenuos peace" just wasn't working out when the game's main theme was WAR hence the name WARcraft.
.... really? Are you really gonna lower yourself and begin on that, in my mind, directly IDIOTIC thing... WARcraft means WAR, not freaking Horde vs. Alliance! WAR has more than the meaning of two factions clashing together! This IS warcraft, theres just not the war YOU want. Honestly this point is another - in your credibility.
5- "Like father like son"- Grom, the most legendary figure in orc history our great redeemer per se. The Jesus of orcs. Was even more of a hothead than his son at first and he turned out allright. He was the first to agree with Ner'Zhul's unity against the Dreanei and the first to drink demon blood. On top of the most enthusiastic with all of the Horde's war efforts both good and bad. Garrosh is young and ruthless (I can relate) Varion is well established and as "wise" as he's gonna get. There's hope for one not the other.
this is one of the few points i both agree but also disagree on, Grom was very energetic and aggresive, but he redeemed himself... But only after having brought so much problems to the horde, which in my mind means i wouldn't want another, the Hordes reputation isn't really able to take another hit from someone causing big troubles only to redeem himself later. Besides why the heck would you take such a chance? When the son already proven he isn't in the redeeming stage? As another poster said, one of the ashbringers children didn't excately redeem himself either.
As i may add i dont take sides, im a WoW lore fan, not a a fanboi under any delusion of being part of a fictional horde, sorry but WoW is fictional, (suprise :P). While Garrosh is developing and may turn out to redeem himself and become a hero of the horde, chances so far are more likely for him to turn into an even more bloodthirsty orc and end up being the Hordes shame.
Oh and just to give my view on Varian, he let Saurfang get his son in ICC (when your Alliance) as far as i remember (sorry this may be wrong, if i am do tell ^^), he has proven he is willing to discuss, but is understandable enough still a bit ^&*!ed. He may still turn out to be a great king to bring peace between two factions, he just doesn't work well with the aggresive non-human type as far as i can see.
EDIT: before anyone says anything about my siggy, which i thought someone might try use to make my oppinion completely invalid, its more of a joke towards the whole "Garrosh for president" thing :P Also Vol'jin is one of my favorite characters in WoW alongside Thrall (sorry im a bit mainstream ;-P but thats who i like).
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