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PTR
10.2.5
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10.2.6
Is it okay NOT to heal in order to teach a lesson?
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Post by
146010
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Post by
496475
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Post by
Achloryn
My tolerance is at it's lowest in low level instances when I don't have the mana to heal two people continuously. If people won't quit wasting my mana, then I'll stop healing them. They have to learn basic aggro rules sooner or later, and I figure it's nicer to break them in while their repair bills are small.
There's only one problem with this... You ever tried tanking low level instances before? Aggro is all over the damn place as it is. Paladins (by far the most common tank pre-outlands in my experience) have to worry about mana far more than they do at later times due to lack of divine plea and spiritual attunement, and consecration is
insanely mana heavy
. Warriors don't have devastate or shockwave for aoe aggro, and they can't charge in defensive stance. I honestly don't even
remember
the last druid tank i've seen that wasn't in a heroic.. Basic aggro rules are all fine and good, but even the best of players can have a hard time holding aggro when they're so limited by resources in early content.
Post by
146010
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383151
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70814
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359074
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91278
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Post by
dhampir1989
*cough*
Cooldown
*cough*
Who cares if I over aggro when its dead before It's noticed it should be attacking me? :P
Post by
167408
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Post by
kamodius
I have two
threat
reduction
talents. Despite this, I pull aggro in Heroics whenever I get a chance. I also
never
die
; and the same can be said for several other classes. I'd love to know how you intend to teach me any lessons about living without a healer when, outside of raids, I barely need one. I pull aggro because I
do
know how to play, not because I don't.
The only way this can get annoying is if you use Dispersion to wipe your aggro next to the healer as they get a big crit heal, and the mob that should be on the tank eats their face. In that case, are you doing right because you
can
kill them without the benefit of a tank/healer, or did you just slapnut the whole group because you can't be bothered to follow kill order and watch aggro?
Or are you doing to be the dps that blames the tank for not taunting the mob that shouldn't have been pulled off of him in the first place?
There's one tank. Let them tank. Anything else is just "I'm too cool for that" epeen waving, imo.
Post by
91278
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Post by
kamodius
The only way this can get annoying is if you use Dispersion to
not die because you pulled aggro
next to the healer as they get a big crit heal, and the mob that should be on the tank eats their face. In that case, are you doing right because you
can
kill them without the benefit of a tank/healer, or did you just slapnut the whole group because you can't be bothered to follow kill order and watch aggro?
Or are you doing to be the dps that blames the tank for not taunting the mob that shouldn't have been pulled off of him in the first place?
There's one tank. Let them tank. Anything else is just "I'm too cool for that" epeen waving, imo.
If that's the healer, the tank's doing something horribly wrong anyway.
I am doing my job -- DPSing and not dying. Don't complain that I do my job better than the tank does his.
All of which could be avoided if you hadn't pulled aggro in the first place.
This narrow-minded attitude is
exactly
why there's a shortage of tanks. Not only do we (next to healers) have the most complex job in the instance/raid, but we have to deal with that attitude. It's also the job in which we can't win. If we pull to fast, you $%^&* about mana. If we slow down for you to mana, you $%^&* that we're too slow. Oh, and if you go crazy and attack some target that isn't mine and pull it, clearly I'm a fail tank.
My job as a tank is to generate aggro, watch for pats, and not face the angry fire-breathing dragon at you so you melt when he breathes.
Your
job, simple as it is, is to apply damage to a target I've established aggro on at a rate that will down the target but not make it hate you more than me. It's not complicated, and just because you can't be bothered to do something as hard as not let your aggro bar pass the tanks doesn't make them fail, it means you're not doing your job. (This is, of course, assuming a tank that's geared at or near your level and using an appropriate rotation.)
Answer me this: How many groups have you been in where nobody pulled aggro and nobody died? Now how many groups have you been in where you went full bore don't-give-a-damn and you or someone else died? Tell me which instance finished faster? Thought so.
My policy since the random feature came out is to just let
dps
do what they want and die,
then
use my taunts. I also quit at the first "gogogogogo". I'll get in a new group in about 12 seconds. You can have your 10 minute wait.
TL;DR - I call shenanegins on your statement. It's not my job to outrun you, it's
your
job not to pass me, all things being equal.
Edit: Fixed my original point in the quote.
Post by
Onijitsu
I've just started into the healing role yesterday. And yes, I have already started punitively refusing to heal (or rez, 'til after we talked, in one case) when dealing with an idiot tank or DPSer.
In the dozen healing runs I've had so far? I had a rogue who thought he was going to tank/pull. And, I had a tank who wouldn't listen to anyone else, kept running ahead, running around corners (breaking LOS), and ditching everyone when they're all trying to regen their mana. (Including, myself)
I get that they are learning their toons and their roles too. I consider it my job to help them learn. This, because I know other Healers will get miffed if they keep this up. (And better to break them of stupid habits earlier, right?)
I will be civil, and will try to couch things in a helpful fashion at first. (And if possible, make my suggestions privately, using tells, before making it a party issue) But in both cases? They kept it up. They started getting derisive comments from the other party members who saw and agreed that they were being stupid. And they got kicked. I don't feel one bit bad about it.
One thing I love about being a healer? I don't have a stupid healer, most of the time. And if I have a stupid tank or DPSer? Well... I've got a means to "convince them" to get smarter. ;-) Mistakes totally happen. And we deal with what comes. But when people are repeatedly doing stupid things, they need to learn, or they need to do something else.
In the case of the Pally Tank? After he got us all wiped, the second time, he refused to give me Blessing of Wisdom again. Probably, thinking he was going to gain some bargaining power. Someone else spoke up, "You think you're punishing the Healer by refusing that? You're punishing YOURSELF, IDIOT!"
(It could be that I get some of my attitudes from having been a nurse in real life, and dealing with people who do things that're harmful to themselves, their families, and even myself)
Post by
Onijitsu
My tolerance is at it's lowest in low level instances when I don't have the mana to heal two people continuously. If people won't quit wasting my mana, then I'll stop healing them. They have to learn basic aggro rules sooner or later, and I figure it's nicer to break them in while their repair bills are small.
There's only one problem with this... You ever tried tanking low level instances before? Aggro is all over the damn place as it is. Paladins (by far the most common tank pre-outlands in my experience) have to worry about mana far more than they do at later times due to lack of divine plea and spiritual attunement, and consecration is
insanely mana heavy
. Warriors don't have devastate or shockwave for aoe aggro, and they can't charge in defensive stance. I honestly don't even
remember
the last druid tank i've seen that wasn't in a heroic.. Basic aggro rules are all fine and good, but even the best of players can have a hard time holding aggro when they're so limited by resources in early content.
I agree with you.
Thus, given that Tanks have fewer tools available, it's even MORE important that they do things in a more simple and cautious manner. The earlier levels are for learning the basics of one's class. And part of knowing one's class and role, is knowing one's limitations. (Because, if you don't, then you will have those limitations smack you HARD)
Many of these first-time tanks remember how tanks (and especially, Tankadins) do things in level-80 instances, and somehow get the idea that they ought to be able to do the exact same things.
Post by
552189
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Post by
91278
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Post by
Achloryn
The only way this can get annoying is if you use Dispersion to
not die because you pulled aggro
next to the healer as they get a big crit heal, and the mob that should be on the tank eats their face. In that case, are you doing right because you
can
kill them without the benefit of a tank/healer, or did you just slapnut the whole group because you can't be bothered to follow kill order and watch aggro?
Or are you doing to be the dps that blames the tank for not taunting the mob that shouldn't have been pulled off of him in the first place?
There's one tank. Let them tank. Anything else is just "I'm too cool for that" epeen waving, imo.
If that's the healer, the tank's doing something horribly wrong anyway.
I am doing my job -- DPSing and not dying. Don't complain that I do my job better than the tank does his.
All of which could be avoided if you hadn't pulled aggro in the first place.
This narrow-minded attitude is
exactly
why there's a shortage of tanks. Not only do we (next to healers) have the most complex job in the instance/raid, but we have to deal with that attitude. It's also the job in which we can't win. If we pull to fast, you $%^&* about mana. If we slow down for you to mana, you $%^&* that we're too slow. Oh, and if you go crazy and attack some target that isn't mine and pull it, clearly I'm a fail tank.
uhm.. if the healer has 2nd aggro to the dpser who pulled, then yes you are failing as a tank.. the point he was making was that aggro dumps will make the mob go back to whoever had top aggro prior to his pull... if that's the healer and not the tank, then the tank is failing in some way.. the healer should NEVER have aggro... period.
Post by
kamodius
The only way this can get annoying is if you use Dispersion to
not die because you pulled aggro
next to the healer as they get a big crit heal, and the mob that should be on the tank eats their face. In that case, are you doing right because you
can
kill them without the benefit of a tank/healer, or did you just slapnut the whole group because you can't be bothered to follow kill order and watch aggro?
Or are you doing to be the dps that blames the tank for not taunting the mob that shouldn't have been pulled off of him in the first place?
There's one tank. Let them tank. Anything else is just "I'm too cool for that" epeen waving, imo.
If that's the healer, the tank's doing something horribly wrong anyway.
I am doing my job -- DPSing and not dying. Don't complain that I do my job better than the tank does his.
All of which could be avoided if you hadn't pulled aggro in the first place.
This narrow-minded attitude is
exactly
why there's a shortage of tanks. Not only do we (next to healers) have the most complex job in the instance/raid, but we have to deal with that attitude. It's also the job in which we can't win. If we pull to fast, you $%^&* about mana. If we slow down for you to mana, you $%^&* that we're too slow. Oh, and if you go crazy and attack some target that isn't mine and pull it, clearly I'm a fail tank.
uhm.. if the healer has 2nd aggro to the dpser who pulled, then yes you are failing as a tank.. the point he was making was that aggro dumps will make the mob go back to whoever had top aggro prior to his pull... if that's the healer and not the tank, then the tank is failing in some way.. the healer should NEVER have aggro... period.
Close. Here's the problem with that assertion:
1) dps pulls aggro from me, therefore I'm not generating aggro on said mob anymore
2) since the dps is usually standing near the healer, the healer will be generating aggro passively just by healing
I've had mobs pulled off of me in the first few seconds of a pull that I didn't have established yet, only to have the dps die or aggro-dump, only to have the healer hit a big heal or some such and have the mob glom onto them.
So, I repeat my question: what do you think you're going to teach me by not healing me or not taunting the mob? I'm not going to die, and I'm not going to change my ways.
Myself personally? Nothing. I honestly don't care what you do. I would hope you'd behave yourself better with a less-experienced tank, but that's not my problem. My post was largely playing devil's advocate. I'm not going to blanket-state that
all
dpsers are bad for doing what you do. If you clearly know what you're doing and you're not causing undue stress, have right at it.
But for a new tank, that would be hair-pulling because maybe they don't have the experience to know that you're okay self-tanking/dpsing a mob, so they're going to try and taunt it back, fail at it, and get frazzled. How do I know that? Happened to me when I was a baby tank.
That was my point.
Post by
ShadowSerpent
....3) Not dying.
Point 3) can be split into several other things:
3a) Not standing in the bad stuff
3b) Not standing in cleaves
3c) Not overaggroing.
Now, I don't die when I overaggro in heroics -- ever. So 3c simply does not apply to me. I do not need to avoid overaggro in order to avoid death... when I overaggro, I know exactly what I am doing and I know that I am not going to die.
Unfortunately, a lot of dps can not handle their aggro. After a few warnings I stop healing them. But someone like you, who (as you claim) would not get a lot of damage and thus would not put a strain on my healing would always recieve my heals. Ofc it doesn't really apply anymore nowadays now that I'm geared well enough for all HCs. But it wasn't always like that and I don't have much chance of healing squishy clothies who get 1shotted.
....If they die from it, they shouldn't have pulled aggro in the first place (and if they repeat I'll /rage). If they can handle their mob, I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes it's even better....
Also, a dk who knows when to DG some annoying caster that got skipped by/was out of range of my avenger's shield I would absolutely love to spam heroics with =D Makes my job a bit easier and the encounters go a lot faster (mobs closer together=more mobs in aoe=more damage done).
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