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Ignorance of Discipline mechanics
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Post by
312504
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
117913
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Post by
karlusdavius
Renew doesn't scale with haste.
Shield Rolling is effective, but you should be using other spells
PoM should be used every CD
Penance should be used when needed
Flash heal should always be used above renew.
ImmutableDark is a &*!@. Literally.
Post by
MegaVolt
Yes, a holy Priest and Druids will do better on raid healer. On a stationary fight a Shaman will also do a lot better.
Still: Disc isn't thaaaat bad for raid healing. Shield spamming the raid is pretty effective. Nowhere near what Druids can do but still quite nice. Hasted PoH is good.
You are vastly underestimating Renew. It is an awesome spell. Yes, it's not as awesome as a Druids Rejuvenation and for disc it will be even weaker than a holy Renew but it still is quite nice. Having it on the tank certainly doesn't hurt and a few casts on raid members which will take predictable damage soon aren't bad either.
Renew doesn't scale with haste.
Shield Rolling is effective, but you should be using other spells
Flash heal should always be used above renew.
Renew does scale with haste. "Cast time" (the gcd) is lowered which increases the casts per second which increases throughput, just like every other spell.
Shield rolling is situational but it can be the strategy to go for depending on the encounter. For example if you end up raid healing on Gormock you might want to shield all melee before he stomps. Same for Icehowl just before the knockback, shield rolling is awesome there. Or a more recent fight: Festergut before the exhale, having the whole raid shielded there helps a lot.
Same for Renew rolling: In those situations Renew is an awesome spell to cast. HoTing a few people up (e.g. a healer that stood in the ice breath right before the knockback should get a shield + renew asap) so that it can tick while everyone is stunned by Icehowl helps the raid a lot, no matter if you are tank or raid healing. You can't cast FHs when stunned, Renew will keep ticking.
As for tank healing (which should be your main role as disc) having a Renew active on the tank at all times imo is superior to just spamming FH on him.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Nice, but completely unnecessary. You have 15 seconds after the Massive Crash to heal everyone up. The only reason to do so before is to &*!@# the meters. What's that? You used mana on an inefficient spell for the sake of healing damage that was not remotely critical, wasting mana by sniping others' roles in the process? Well done! Have a cookie!
In 25 HC the combination of Arctic Breath and Massive Crash will usually kill people that didn't get a heal. Since he can use MC right after AB it makes sense to shield and/or renew people that got hit by the AB.
In a perfect world this shouldn't happen but most guilds to have issues with people failing on Massive Crash. At least in normal mode it is quite easy to just tranq shot him and still beat the boss. Having a Renew ticking during the stun might save lives in these situations.
I agree that most of the time when support raid healing it is the far better choice to cast a PW:S instead of a Renew. But there are a few occasions in which a Renew is valid.
And then there is the issue of tank healing of course. Keeping Renew active on your tank is good. Renew has a higher amount healed per time spent casting than FH and when spam healing a tank the overheal of both FH and Renew will be the same. As rare as the opportinuties for Renew are when helping out on the raid - I see absolutely no reason to not use Renew when tank healing.
Post by
91278
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Post by
Paolo
Trying to use logic with MegaVolt, are we?
Post by
OscarDivine
Trying to use logic with MegaVolt, are we?
^^ ... keekee
Post by
MegaVolt
Trying to use logic with MegaVolt, are we?
If only it would be logic. I said overheal of FH and Renew will be the same
when spam healing the tank
. As long as you can do reactive healing FH will be more efficient obviously. But every single encounter that is hard on tank heals requires spam healing anyway - or do you seriously claim to do reactive healing on e.g. Festergut when he inhaled 3 times? Or on Alaglon when going for the Herald of the Titans achievement?
When spam healing the chance of a FH overhealing is exactly the same as the chance for a Renew tick overhealing. That is logic.
Yes, Renew does not proc Divine Aegies. But it heals twice of what FH does for the same cast time which makes more than up for it.
I don't know about your raids but I often have seen the tank drop to very low health. And often enough he is barely picked up and lives through it. 500 HPS can make the difference there. After all they are completely passive (you cast that Renew while he is at full health) and while they are ticking on him you can still FH spam him when he is low.
Not using those 500 almost-free HPS - that has nothing to do with logic.
Post by
312504
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Paolo
Hotting the tank while disc healing is not the issue, is it? We covered that about a year ago. If you have a GCD to spare, great, if not, no biggie. And if you feel renew is essential to have up on your tanks, that's fine too. Problem solved.
Sinespe was responding to your suggestion to hot the raid as discipline
when raid healing
. He made some excellent points, which you responded to by talking about tank healing.
The only reason I ever respond to your posts is because I fear your long-windedness might sway those still on the early part of the learning curve. If all I do is protect them, I've done my job. I have no interest to (or expectation that anyone can) convince you of anything.
Oh, and about that Massive Crash.
...most guilds to have issues with people failing on Massive Crash...
Play with bads.
Learn bad habits.
If they work, call them "good habits."
Post them on forums.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
If only it would be logic. I said overheal of FH and Renew will be the same
when spam healing the tank
. As long as you can do reactive healing FH will be more efficient obviously. But every single encounter that is hard on tank heals requires spam healing anyway - or do you seriously claim to do reactive healing on e.g. Festergut when he inhaled 3 times? Or on Alaglon when going for the Herald of the Titans achievement?
When spam healing the chance of a FH overhealing is exactly the same as the chance for a Renew tick overhealing. That is logic.
Yes, Renew does not proc Divine Aegies. But it heals twice of what FH does for the same cast time which makes more than up for it.
I don't know about your raids but I often have seen the tank drop to very low health. And often enough he is barely picked up and lives through it. 500 HPS can make the difference there. After all they are completely passive (you cast that Renew while he is at full health) and while they are ticking on him you can still FH spam him when he is low.
Not using those 500 almost-free HPS - that has nothing to do with logic.
... Okay. I'm going to take this super slow for you.
Firstly, you are misguided if you think that, when spam healing a tank, we have GCDs to spare for a pathetic HoT which will not save a tank's life. If we are spam-healing a tank, it means
not spam-healing the tank will cause him to die
. It means
he needs 7k health immediately, not 9k over 15 seconds
. Your argument is completely messed up here: You tell us that we can't heal reactively and have to spam, yet you want us to find a GCD from somewhere to throw out a HoT?
You can't just "Cast it when the tank is at full health". If you cast it while the tank is at full health, you're stuck waiting for 1-1.3 seconds before you can cast again. In that time, the tank can very easily take 20k to the face (on Festergut). Now you're on the back foot. You have to cast your next Flash Heal, and the time between Renew being applied on the tank and that Flash Heal going off is now 2-2.6 seconds. Has Renew ticked once in this time? Nope! It'll only tick for the first time after your tank is either too low to be saved or has already been brought up to full again by a combination of your and your fellow healer's (healers') heals. (No, you can't just rely on the others to pick up the slack while you throw out the HoT. A 20k hit has to be healed by a flash heal
and
another source (LHW/FoL/Nourish) -- having only one of those without the other will not make up nearly enough of a deficit)
Let's move on: in your argument, you confuse HPET (Healing Per Execute Time) with HPS. Having just read back through this sentence, and this whole thread, I'm getting a massive sense of déjà vu -- but you know what? I'm going to carry on anyway. Where was I? Oh, yes. HPET vs HPS. I touched on this briefly in my opening paragraph: No one cares if Renew does more healing across the life of the buff than Flash Heal can do. Yes, they take the same time to cast. Point is, though, Flash Heal does between 7000/1 and 7000/1.3 HPS. It is immediate -- it gets dealt when it's necessary to be dealt. When does the first trickle of Renew come through? 3 seconds in. Tanks very easily die in three seconds on brutal-hitting bosses like Festergut. "Same cast time" is completely irrelevant and full of misdirection. Going back to what I have previously said: Between casting Renew and your next flash heal going off on the target, you are doing
ZERO
HEALING
. You
double
the length of time for which the tank receives no heals from you. In that time, he can drop so low as to become unsavable, if not die altogether.
Let me put this in terms that you can understand:
Discipline Priests do not have Swiftmend
. We can't HoT up the tank and then immediately hit them with a huge heal to make up for the time we spent using Regrowth and Rejuvenate. We don't even get Empowered Renew. We get
nothing apart from wasted time
. The reason Resto Druids do have Glyph of Swiftmend is that, without HoTs, your Nourish is very weak: you
need
to have them on the tank or he will die from lack of burst from Nourish -- each one just won't deal enough healing to keep him up.
We gain
nothing
from casting renew. We lose a GCD that we should have spent flash healing our target. When Discipline has to
heal
, it means we can't shield. If we can't shield, it means the damage coming in on our target is so strong it is breaking through our shields within seconds. It is
critical damage
. Renew does not ever heal critical damage as Discipline -- it does more harm than good.
And that is end of discussion. Sorry, but I'm not wasting any more time on you on this occasion. You are wrong -- and I am not going to convince you of that fact any more than this post already does.
Pretty sure you missed out on the fact that, even if Flash Heal does 100% overheal, it can still proc Divine Aegis. Pretty sure were back to the "flash heal gives ur more secondary effects" argument from the old threads. Whatever, I'll bite.
Let's see what affect's Flash Heal or happens because of Flash Heal in our lovely Discipline tree, shall we?
Grace
Divine Aegis
Renewed Hope
Improved Flash Heal
Inspiration
Holy Specialization
Now let's have a gander at what Renew gets from our lovely Discipline tree, shall we?
I agree, Renew wins.
Post by
MegaVolt
Firstly, you are misguided if you think that, when spam healing a tank, we have GCDs to spare for a pathetic HoT which will not save a tank's life. If we are spam-healing a tank, it means
not spam-healing the tank will cause him to die
. It means
he needs 7k health immediately, not 9k over 15 seconds
. Your argument is completely messed up here: You tell us that we can't heal reactively and have to spam, yet you want us to find a GCD from somewhere to throw out a HoT?
Come on, you are smarter than that. Are you so dead set on being right that you lower yourself to posting stuff like that?
Obviously nobody will refresh Renew on the tank when he is sitting at 2k health and needs a heal
right now
. As I wrote: You cast it when the tank has full health. Let's take Festergut as example: While he casts that third inhale you will have no tank damage to heal. Your FHs are completely useless and you have plenty of time to cast a Renew at the tank. You cast Renew when you have to GCD to spare (lucky dodge streaks) so you have "free" healing when it comes to FH spamming (unlucky dodge streaks).
Hotting the tank while disc healing is not the issue, is it? We covered that about a year ago. If you have a GCD to spare, great, if not, no biggie. And if you feel renew is essential to have up on your tanks, that's fine too. Problem solved.
This is just what I said. There is absolutely no harm in keeping Renew on the tank and it is commom knowledge to do it when you can afford the GCD since it is simply effective.
To refresh your memory:
Oh, and Renew is completely balls for Discipline and should
NEVER
be used; the only exception to that being renewing a warlock out of combat so that he can life tap. Okay? Okay.
This statement is simply wrong. Get over it.
Post by
450879
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
A Few things in particular amuse me about this thread, and I have admittedly, not read very much of it...
"Ignorance of Discipline mechanics" is the name of the thread and it is NOW a back and forth between Megavolt and our regulars.
and...
... See above.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Erethzium
*munching popcorn* Arguing over game mechanics should be an Olympic sport.
EDIT: Oh look, this is my 800th post. I need a life.
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