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I think blizzard went to far this time (Thrall related)
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Post by
Monday
I know that Thrall is stepping down, which is what the OP is saying anyway. >.>
Actully thats a misconception. Despite my emese dislike at blizzard having Garrosh take power over the horde, to suggest Thrall as 'stepping down' doesn't have anything to back it, like Adam says.
Also, in order to create conflict in cataclysm, its obvious the reason for having Garrosh take that kind of power was to force the horde into a relentless war with the alliance, now lead by orc hating Varian. There means of injecting the conflict Jaina and Thrall were fighting to avoid for years.
Yeah I can understand that. But as Rankkorr and myself have been saying, having the horde painted as the bad guys in order to make some butthole pointless war when Deathchin is flying around burning the world is just mediocre. The horde has developed and evolved into the dark but noble races they are now, almost on an anti hero bases, because they have saved the world dozens of times.. and just all blizzard had to do was remove there noble leader and replace him with a raging retconn, and boom, its all for nothing.
Its right, blizzard owe the horde players something big, only the most nonsensical fool would overlook the fact garrosh is already bringing the horde back down to that bad guy image.
All I can hope is that, like Adam depicted in his story of the future, Deathchin will eat Garrosh and be the end of him.
Two things. A: What does Blizzard owe you?
B: THink of this like a story. Not all stories are happy beginning happy middle and happy end. This is just a dark time in the story and it will pass.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
And they are taking Astranaar for the territory. If the Horde takes Astranaar, they control all of Ashenvale.
I was thinking in the grand scheme of things, not in terms of only Ashenvale. I definitely doubt that the Horde wouldn't lose anything because Blizzard, while most of them do enjoy the Horde, knows they have to be fair to both sides if only from a gameplay perspective.
My guess is that even if the Warsong take Ashenvale, there'll be efforts from the NEs to take it back.
Maybe Warsong gulch will be the NE's trying to take it back. Anyways, in the larger scheme of things, Ashenvale is a HUGE forest. Lots o' wood. Which is a necessity for camps, siege weapons, the like.
Post by
Adamsm
The Horde clear cut most of Ashenvale, force the Night Elves out of the base camp on the lake south of Raynewood, and have near constant attacks on Astranaar(it hasn't fallen yet).
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Four things. A: Everybody suffered equally at Wrathgate. You could even say the Alliance suffered more because they had more of their soldiers killed at Wrathgate because they were the first to engage the Scourge, and Bolvar is killed. HORDE DID NOT SUFFER MORE AT WRATHGATE.
I wasn't talking about actual losses here (in wich case, the horde lost more, because there was an equal ammount of soldiers of alliance and horde there, and while the alliance lost only their soldiers at the wrathgate, the horde lost their soldiers at the warthgate, a hero (bolvar lives, draenosh does not) and a lot of the personell in the undercity)
I'm talking about actual honor and reputation.
let's get somethign straight here, nobody likes to be the bad guys, or only a few do, but I sure as hell don't, the very reason I started playing horde was due to their constant strife to put aside their dark past and start anew.......
this is the main principle and creed of the horde that I respect and admire, wich of course was totatly burned out in WOTLK thanks to the broken front and the wrathgate both of wich made a solid work of demonizing the horde into the bad-guys here, (garrosh's attitude on the dalaran summit and on the tournament didn't helped, and neither did thrall's passiveness).
so yhea, as darkton said, blizz made the alliance look bad, evil and stupid on warcraft 3, then they did the same for the horde on WOTLK, so now it's back to demonize the alliance again on cataclysm, why should the horde STILL be portrayed as the bad-guys?
whenever they wanna "spark some conflict" or "bring war back to warcraft" it is allways done by horde-races, even if they are rogue-factions within the horde......
when the hell are we gonna see some villiance INISDE the alliance? becuse I can count well over 9 diferent villians inside the horde (besides varimathras, putress, and that undead chick that led the atack on theramoore)
if blizzard was really balanced they wound't be devolving the horde into the bad-guys, or simply the ones that trow the first stone.......
-.-
B. Blizzard has always been on the Horde's side a bit more. Most of the big people in Blizzard say they are Horde, and if you look at the BattleCry Mosaic, there are more Horde fans than Alliance. Perhaps it was time to have the Horde get hit once for a change.
what good is that when in-game the honor of the horde is broken by crap like the broken front or wrathgate, or the taking of astranaar, the expelling of non-orcs from org, the atack on gilneas, and a rather HUGE ecetera?
it means jack, that's what it means.......
C.You "lose" two leaders. Thrall is helping battle Ragnaros. What does this mean? He's not just sitting his butt on that Throne, he is actually helping his people. We don't know what is happening to Cairne at all.
I supose you woud be equally happy if the same happened to the alliance? I'm 120% sure that if blizzard decided to replace varian as the human king, put someone who's not lovable like anduin but a rather jackass on the throne and have varian help out save the world, the reaction would be pretty much the same.....
besides, no matter how much physical help thrall does to save the horde, it means nothing if jaina manages to set up a peace meeting between the horde and the alliance, and the horde warchief just says "go away skank"
D. "Lose a few camps?" We lose a LOT of ground, including the last large city of the night elves in Ashenvale, Astranaar. And we also lose Auberdine in darkshore. WHile those are just NIght Elves being hit, those are two of their largest cities, which is saying a lot for the NIght Elves. That does not hardly constitute "A few camps".
and what do you gain? a whole city back, did u forgot about gnomer? do the trolls get the echo-isles back? nope, still inhabited by lvl 10 hostile mobs :S
my point is that the alliance loses on cataclysm are minimal, and their gains are huge.
the horde gets internal strife (don't think that the expellment of the non-orcs will go under the radar) political tension, 2 of our best leaders no longer affecting the course of action but rather get demoted to simple grunts, doing stuff but not influencing in the important desitions, and we also loose several camps too, (taurajo rings a bell?) overall, the horde gets mostly bad-stuff and moderately good stuff, but the alliance gets mostly goodstuff and only a couple of towns lost......
I'm really sick of this repeating broken record of "hey we need to bring war back to warcraft, so let's have the horde unprovoked atack something and presto, we have a war again"
why can't it be the other way arround? why can't the alliance be made like the bad-guys? like the antagonizers? like the ones that trow the first stone?
jeez.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
I wasn't talking about actual losses here (in wich case, the horde lost more, because there was an equal ammount of soldiers of alliance and horde there, and while the alliance lost only their soldiers at the wrathgate, the horde lost their soldiers at the warthgate, a hero (bolvar lives, draenosh does not) and a lot of the personell in the undercity)
I'm talking about actual honor and reputation.
let's get somethign straight here, nobody likes to be the bad guys, or only a few do, but I sure as hell don't, the very reason I started playing horde was due to their constant strife to put aside their dark past and start anew.......
this is the main principle and creed of the horde that I respect and admire, wich of course was totatly burned out in WOTLK thanks to the broken front and the wrathgate both of wich made a solid work of demonizing the horde into the bad-guys here, (garrosh's attitude on the dalaran summit and on the tournament didn't helped, and neither did thrall's passiveness).
so yhea, as darkton said, blizz made the alliance look bad, evil and stupid on warcraft 3, then they did the same for the horde on WOTLK, so now it's back to demonize the alliance again on cataclysm, why should the horde STILL be portrayed as the bad-guys?
whenever they wanna "spark some conflict" or "bring war back to warcraft" it is allways done by horde-races, even if they are rogue-factions within the horde......
when the hell are we gonna see some villiance INISDE the alliance? becuse I can count well over 9 diferent villians inside the horde (besides varimathras, putress, and that undead chick that led the atack on theramoore)
if blizzard was really balanced they wound't be devolving the horde into the bad-guys, or simply the ones that trow the first stone.......
-.-
what good is that when in-game the honor of the horde is broken by crap like the broken front or wrathgate, or the taking of astranaar, the expelling of non-orcs from org, the atack on gilneas, and a rather HUGE ecetera?
it means jack, that's what it means.......
I supose you woud be equally happy if the same happened to the alliance? I'm 120% sure that if blizzard decided to replace varian as the human king, put someone who's not lovable like anduin but a rather jackass on the throne and have varian help out save the world, the reaction would be pretty much the same.....
besides, no matter how much physical help thrall does to save the horde, it means nothing if jaina manages to set up a peace meeting between the horde and the alliance, and the horde warchief just says "go away skank"
and what do you gain? a whole city back, did u forgot about gnomer? do the trolls get the echo-isles back? nope, still inhabited by lvl 10 hostile mobs :S
my point is that the alliance loses on cataclysm are minimal, and their gains are huge.
the horde gets internal strife (don't think that the expellment of the non-orcs will go under the radar) political tension, 2 of our best leaders no longer affecting the course of action but rather get demoted to simple grunts, doing stuff but not influencing in the important desitions, and we also loose several camps too, (taurajo rings a bell?) overall, the horde gets mostly bad-stuff and moderately good stuff, but the alliance gets mostly goodstuff and only a couple of towns lost......
I'm really sick of this repeating broken record of "hey we need to bring war back to warcraft, so let's have the horde unprovoked atack something and presto, we have a war again"
why can't it be the other way arround? why can't the alliance be made like the bad-guys? like the antagonizers? like the ones that trow the first stone?
jeez.
Ok sure, the Horde does look bad at Wrathgate, but that is the Horde's fault if it looks bad, take a look at the earlier posts.
B: Why is the Horde fighting the alliance being bad? Its war, thats what the horde does.
C: Nobody here cares aobut Varian besides Darkton. So pretty much nobody cares about Varian. And besides, they are NOT demoted to simple grunts. Thrall appears to be working with Malfurion, implying Neutrality, not working for the Horde. Which means he is like Tirion/Darion. And they are NOT grunts I assure you.
D: We're not even sure if we get Gnomeregon, its not confirmed yet. And sure you lose Tauraho, what else? Night elveslose everything and we lose Southshore, aka all of Hillsbrad. The Alliance doesn't take any zones, just loses two.
And the Alliance will never be made the bad guys because they were the ones invaded. THey are an Alliance AGAINST the Horde, and made because of unprovoked attacks. So sure there are a few incidents where the Alliance attacks first, but it is the Horde's nature to attack first, not the Alliance's.
Post by
Rankkor
Ok sure, the Horde does look bad at Wrathgate, but that is the Horde's fault if it looks bad, take a look at the earlier posts
now this is not what I'm arguing, what I'm saying is that just as blizzard developed this story-arc in wich the horde's carelessness costed quite a lot of innocent lives, they could do just the same in cataclysm by staging a scenario in wich the alliance's recklessness also costs inocent horde and alliance lives (and don't say it's not posible because fandral's experiments, gnomes and their radiation, and worgen and their chemists can make any of these scenarios into a disaster)
I want a story-arc in wich it's the alliance that drops the ball, but so far I'm seeing none, in fact the few info out in cataclysm shows more and more worst traits in the horde (I really hate that whole business of expelling non-orcs, how well anyone thinks that's gonna go?)
Thrall appears to be working with Malfurion, implying Neutrality, not working for the Horde. Which means he is like Tirion/Darion. And they are NOT grunts I assure you
humm, ok i'll give you that one, when u paint it from that angle it does looks better, as in, thrall won't be a simple NPC inside a raid but rather an individual that shows up everywhere and does makes a rather large diference, if thrall is gonna have a role similar to Tirion then maybe there's still hope left..........
maybe.........
And the Alliance will never be made the bad guys because they were the ones invaded THey are an Alliance AGAINST the Horde, and made because of unprovoked attacks. So sure there are a few incidents where the Alliance attacks first, but it is the Horde's nature to attack first, not the Alliance's.
bull-crap
durotar is an orc land, and that didn't stopped admiral proudmoore to atack it unprovoked.....
blizzard is the damn story-writer, just as they love to write horde atacking alliance, thus making them look like the bad-guys, why can't it be the other way arround? alliance spilling inocent blood?
this is the one-sideness of blizzard that I hate, their unwillingness to actually soil the image of the alliance..
they have no reserves to do so with the horde........
Edit:(glaring at magtha's grimtotem, that hag is up to no good either, see? so many bad figures inside the horde, when the hell we're gonna see some bad figures inside the alliance?)
Post by
taurenmoo812
And the Alliance will never be made the bad guys because they were the ones invaded. THey are an Alliance AGAINST the Horde, and made because of unprovoked attacks. So sure there are a few incidents where the Alliance attacks first, but it is the Horde's nature to attack first, not the Alliance's.
For your well thought out ideas on this, thats an extremely nieve statement to make.
Proudmoore - Arthas - Greymane - Garithos, to name a few.
And its typical of alliance to use an example of something that happened in lore nearly 40 years before, bearing almost no relavence today.
And I'm with you on this Rank. I'm just as fed up of blizzards hack writers unable to balance out the story in wow without anything to back it.
you know, if they had Christie Golden actully putting her ideas forward of the development of the story in wow, rather then having her as a side on writer forced to use what blizzard give her for material, things might be a lot better to digest.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
And the Alliance will never be made the bad guys because they were the ones invaded. THey are an Alliance AGAINST the Horde, and made because of unprovoked attacks. So sure there are a few incidents where the Alliance attacks first, but it is the Horde's nature to attack first, not the Alliance's.
For your well thought out ideas on this, thats an extremely nieve statement to make.
Proudmoore - Arthas - Greymane - Garithos, to name a few.
Ok I'll give you this one. It is true the Alliance can be quite corrupt.
Post by
Adamsm
And the Alliance will never be made the bad guys because they were the ones invaded. THey are an Alliance AGAINST the Horde, and made because of unprovoked attacks. So sure there are a few incidents where the Alliance attacks first, but it is the Horde's nature to attack first, not the Alliance's.
For your well thought out ideas on this, thats an extremely nieve statement to make.
Proudmoore - Arthas - Greymane - Garithos, to name a few.
Ok I'll give you this one. It is true the Alliance can be quite corrupt.
Uh... Greymane is being attacked first...... he never picked a fight with the Horde, merely fought against the Old Horde and now the Forsaken coming to get his people.
Arthas wasn't part of the Alliance when he attacked the Orcs, and those were members of the Blackrock clans who served under the Dark Horde still.
Garithos yes, Daelin Proudmoore yes.
Post by
Monday
And the Alliance will never be made the bad guys because they were the ones invaded. THey are an Alliance AGAINST the Horde, and made because of unprovoked attacks. So sure there are a few incidents where the Alliance attacks first, but it is the Horde's nature to attack first, not the Alliance's.
For your well thought out ideas on this, thats an extremely nieve statement to make.
Proudmoore - Arthas - Greymane - Garithos, to name a few.
Ok I'll give you this one. It is true the Alliance can be quite corrupt.
Uh... Greymane is being attacked first...... he never picked a fight with the Horde, merely fought against the Old Horde and now the Forsaken coming to get his people.
Arthas wasn't part of the Alliance when he attacked the Orcs, and those were members of the Blackrock clans who served under the Dark Horde still.
Garithos yes, Daelin Proudmoore yes.
Arthas was part of the Alliance though, he was working for King Terenos, one of the staunchest members of the Alliance.
Post by
Adamsm
Arthas was part of the Alliance though, he was working for King Terenos, one of the staunchest members of the Alliance.
They weren't fighting Thrall's Horde though......
Post by
Orranis
I know that Thrall is stepping down, which is what the OP is saying anyway. >.>
Actully thats a misconception. Despite my emese dislike at blizzard having Garrosh take power over the horde, to suggest Thrall as 'stepping down' doesn't have anything to back it, like Adam says.
Also, in order to create conflict in cataclysm, its obvious the reason for having Garrosh take that kind of power was to force the horde into a relentless war with the alliance, now lead by orc hating Varian. There means of injecting the conflict Jaina and Thrall were fighting to avoid for years.
Yeah I can understand that. But as Rankkorr and myself have been saying, having the horde painted as the bad guys in order to make some butthole pointless war when Deathchin is flying around burning the world is just mediocre. The horde has developed and evolved into the dark but noble races they are now, almost on an anti hero bases, because they have saved the world dozens of times.. and just all blizzard had to do was remove there noble leader and replace him with a raging retconn, and boom, its all for nothing.
Its right, blizzard owe the horde players something big, only the most nonsensical fool would overlook the fact garrosh is already bringing the horde back down to that bad guy image.
All I can hope is that, like Adam depicted in his story of the future, Deathchin will eat Garrosh and be the end of him.
Two things. A: What does Blizzard owe you?
B: THink of this like a story. Not all stories are happy beginning happy middle and happy end. This is just a dark time in the story and it will pass.
B! B! B! THANK YOU! It's a story. If all it was is a happy go lucky Blood Elf Paladin who never once strays from the good path, I would probably quit. It makes it interesting!
Post by
Rankkor
B! B! B! THANK YOU! It's a story. If all it was is a happy go lucky Blood Elf Paladin who never once strays from the good path, I would probably quit. It makes it interesting!
well, for a change I want it to be "intresting" for the alliance, let them suffer the strife, the chaos, the losses for a change.........
the alliance is allways painted as the poor martyrs who never do anything wrong, while they suffer at the hands of the savage horde......... doesn't that sound a little biased?
the horde has been recently painted as a monstrous savage band of warmongers who wanna kill as many people as posible, while also killing each other and fighting themselves........... doesn't that sounds biased?
my question remains, why-o-WHY! don't the horde gets their turn to be the martyrs of the cruel alliance?
why-o-why the alliance isn't painted as a bunch of genocidal maniacs that wanna exterminate inocent lives?
why it must be us?
-.-
if you all want the story to be more "intresting" then why can't it be so from the alliance POV?
This thread fails.
-.- if u have nothing constructive to say, or add, then do what the wise-men do and HUSH-HUSH
Post by
Adamsm
my question remains, why-o-WHY! don't the horde gets their turn to be the martyrs of the cruel alliance?
why-o-why the alliance isn't painted as a bunch of genocidal maniacs that wanna exterminate inocent lives?
why it must be us?
-.-
if you all want the story to be more "intresting" then why can't it be so from the alliance POV?Because that's not the way Blizzard set up the Alliance.
Post by
Rankkor
my question remains, why-o-WHY! don't the horde gets their turn to be the martyrs of the cruel alliance?
why-o-why the alliance isn't painted as a bunch of genocidal maniacs that wanna exterminate inocent lives?
why it must be us?
-.-
if you all want the story to be more "intresting" then why can't it be so from the alliance POV?Because that's not the way Blizzard set up the Alliance.
BINGO!, biased they are.........
so, we get stuck on the role of semi-good, semi-jerkasses for good, while the alliance gets the paint of the white-knight in silver armor for good...........
ohh yhea, that's fair, that's reaaaally fair u know?
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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