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I think blizzard went to far this time (Thrall related)
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Firstly lets try to keep this cival and healthy debate. I don't want some objective opinion leading to another flame war here.
I've been mulling over changes in cataclysm in terms of lore, and no matter how hard I try to look past it, each time I think of it, the thought that Thrall no longer leading his people and Garrosh taking that seat of power just goes right to my stomach.
Now, I know that to make something progressive in a story you need to have twists in tales, development, things changing. Thats all expected in a story. And to make things dramatic, blizzard did just that in cataclysm, making the stationary world of wow beta into a new and updated version of itself and azeroth developing.
It makes the story intresting, although I will be honest there will be a lot of things I'll miss, the charm of certain zones forever changed and certain quest lines I really enjoyed and characters and enviroments.
All that I can get use to because I believe blizzard would do a great job of it...
But. I personally think, that making Garrosh the warchief, and Thrall no longer leading his people with the wisdom and hope he gave them to be a huge mistake. This isn't about the characters but rather what they decided to happen.
In terms of it, the alliance has gained a leader now they actully look up to. Despite my personal dislike of Varian, I can truely agree that those might see him in the same respect the horde see Thrall, in different beliefs and constracts but still similar.
But now, the horde has lost that figure that not only made it what it is today (for the first time orcs being heroes and legends) but also one who did everything he could to ensure his peoples survival.
Despite how much people try to make it, Garrosh is not and never will be the kind of man Thrall is, and his influence has already set to spark internal conflicts from the get go.
Despite the drama this would cause, I just have this fear now that with Thrall being taken from that position he belongs in, to just making him an expendable character. The horde does not need a replacement, it never did, because when it came to it Thrall knew just what he was doing to safeguard his people.
Anyone whos viewed other threads knows how I would love nothing better then seeing Garrosh to be eaten by deathwing whole. But if that happened and the horde needed a leader, why should it be something else other then Thrall?
Nore do I want to see blizzards fickle attempt at trying to change Garrosh, and even trying to morph him into 'Thrall 2' just to make replacing the true Thrall easier.
Really, its a decision I'm just praying not to see regret with.
Post by
Adamsm
I really have to ask here; which is more important? Having Thrall running things in Orgrimmar, or having one of the strongest shamans on the planet up in Hyjal, fighting alongside the other heroes against the assault of Ragnaros, his forces, the Twilight Hammer and the Black flight? I mean, alright, we get it that you hate Garrosh, but can you really see Thrall just sitting around in the throne room, when he knows he can be doing something to fight back against a threat that wants to reduce the entire world to ash?
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
Post by
HiVolt
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Post by
Monday
I can't add much after Adamsm's comment...
Post by
Adamsm
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I really have to ask here; which is more important? Having Thrall running things in Orgrimmar, or having one of the strongest shamans on the planet up in Hyjal, fighting alongside the other heroes against the assault of Ragnaros, his forces, the Twilight Hammer and the Black flight? I mean, alright, we get it that you hate Garrosh, but can you really see Thrall just sitting around in the throne room, when he knows he can be doing something to fight back against a threat that wants to reduce the entire world to ash?
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
But thats just it isn't it. They could have made it that Thrall is still warchief of the horde, and still do these things. The 'sitting around in orgrimmar' wasn't exactly prevalent with events in northrend, since he managed to be in both the crusaders coliseum, and at the retaking of undercity, and still be there in orgrimmar (depending on phase).
You know now I think of Thrall as much a goblin does with explosives. It just that having him replaced by the emo son of hellscream at leader is a put down for how far the horde has come.
I got to thinking this, because today well working on my characters loremaster achievement, I completed
this
quest chain. The brunt of it being, that Thrall was prepared to do anything he could to inact peace for his people and those that would war with them. But comparisons, Garrosh would not only spit on this idea, he would have ordered you to kidnap Moira and fire her from a catapault.
We know Garrosh's impatient, but Thrall is clearly grooming him as a future leader of the Horde.
Theres a major oversight.
Garrosh isn't being molded into the future leader of the horde. He becomes the leader of the horde now, in cataclysm. And do you think Thrall would somehow be able to shape him into something since Garrosh obtains that kind of power. That be like saying all Jaina's attempts to quell Varians rage against the horde was successful.
Post by
Orranis
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
I would love it if they did. Now that it cannot be said that "Orkz r bad guyz, dur, evar saw da movee red king of da rings or whatev?"
All heros need to die. I look at all this from a plot point of view, and the big hero dying and the Horde once again going through a dark time would make a great twist.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
I would love it if they did. Now that it cannot be said that "Orkz r bad guyz, dur, evar saw da movee red king of da rings or whatev?"
All heros need to die. I look at all this from a plot point of view, and the big hero dying and the Horde once again going through a dark time would make a great twist.
So your solution is to have all the good elements in the horde die off to try and paint it as some lord of the rings rip off orc army without any driven plot.
Post by
Adamsm
But thats just it isn't it. They could have made it that Thrall is still warchief of the horde, and still do these things. The 'sitting around in orgrimmar' wasn't exactly prevalent with events in northrend, since he managed to be in both the crusaders coliseum, and at the retaking of undercity, and still be there in orgrimmar (depending on phase).Yes, but in Lore he left the city only once, as opposed to the multiple times we see him leave. He always returned to Orgrimmar after the event. For something like Ragnaros fight, it's a war, plain and simple and he can't be going back and forth to check on everything. He does trust Garrosh for whatever reason; let's be clear about that; so you are technically doubting your own Warchief(to take this to that level).
You know now I think of Thrall as much a goblin does with explosives. It just that having him replaced by the emo son of hellscream at leader is a put down for how far the horde has come.
I got to thinking this, because today well working on my characters loremaster achievement, I completed this quest chain. The brunt of it being, that Thrall was prepared to do anything he could to inact peace for his people and those that would war with them. But comparisons, Garrosh would not only spit on this idea, he would have ordered you to kidnap Moira and fire her from a catapault.Doesn't matter Allie or Horde for that quest; both sides she tells you to F-off and get out of her kingdom. I'd be right there beside Garrosh loading her into the catapult seeing as when that baby is born, it's going to be another all out war between the Dark Irons and the Ironforge dwarves... and who knows what their going to summon this time.
Again, you like to borrow trouble Tauren, wait and let's see what's coming; we know Garrosh is a !@#$%^ now, but we don't know much about him in Cata.
Post by
Monday
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
I would love it if they did. Now that it cannot be said that "Orkz r bad guyz, dur, evar saw da movee red king of da rings or whatev?"
All heros need to die. I look at all this from a plot point of view, and the big hero dying and the Horde once again going through a dark time would make a great twist.
Like when the killed Kelsier... (mistborn reference).
But seriously, I think its kinda neat that they are actually doing something with the leaders besides having them sit on a throne or watch a tourney, even if it is a negative thing (arguable though I think its kinda positive) that Thrall is doing.
Post by
Orranis
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
I would love it if they did. Now that it cannot be said that "Orkz r bad guyz, dur, evar saw da movee red king of da rings or whatev?"
All heros need to die. I look at all this from a plot point of view, and the big hero dying and the Horde once again going through a dark time would make a great twist.
So your solution is to have all the good elements in the horde die off to try and paint it as some lord of the rings rip off orc army without any driven plot.
No, I just feel discontent with this "Happily ever after." No good story should ever have a happily ever after. I would love to see the Horde fall to chaos (And I have not a single Alliance toon) struggling between nobility and their dark past, with a tyrannical leader come into play that must then be resisted. A Horde civil war.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
I would love it if they did. Now that it cannot be said that "Orkz r bad guyz, dur, evar saw da movee red king of da rings or whatev?"
All heros need to die. I look at all this from a plot point of view, and the big hero dying and the Horde once again going through a dark time would make a great twist.
So your solution is to have all the good elements in the horde die off to try and paint it as some lord of the rings rip off orc army without any driven plot.
No, I just feel discontent with this "Happily ever after." No good story should ever have a happily ever after. I would love to see the Horde fall to chaos (And I have not a single Alliance toon) struggling between nobility and their dark past, with a tyrannical leader come into play that must then be resisted. A Horde civil war.
And if the same thing happened to the alliance that would suit you too I assume?
Post by
Monday
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
I would love it if they did. Now that it cannot be said that "Orkz r bad guyz, dur, evar saw da movee red king of da rings or whatev?"
All heros need to die. I look at all this from a plot point of view, and the big hero dying and the Horde once again going through a dark time would make a great twist.
So your solution is to have all the good elements in the horde die off to try and paint it as some lord of the rings rip off orc army without any driven plot.
No, I just feel discontent with this "Happily ever after." No good story should ever have a happily ever after. I would love to see the Horde fall to chaos (And I have not a single Alliance toon) struggling between nobility and their dark past, with a tyrannical leader come into play that must then be resisted. A Horde civil war.
And if the same thing happened to the alliance that would suit you too I assume?
But it did happen in the Alliance, the founding of Durotar and the treachery of Perenolde/Alterac. And the Blood Elf plot line as well, the one in TFT.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
Let it come, let's see what they do, and depending on when Ragnaros is 'defeated' you might see Thrall back in Orgrimmar by the end of Cata.
That is unless Garrosh deposes him... I don't see it as likely, but it could happen.
Nah, can't see Blizzard going that far heh.
I would love it if they did. Now that it cannot be said that "Orkz r bad guyz, dur, evar saw da movee red king of da rings or whatev?"
All heros need to die. I look at all this from a plot point of view, and the big hero dying and the Horde once again going through a dark time would make a great twist.
So your solution is to have all the good elements in the horde die off to try and paint it as some lord of the rings rip off orc army without any driven plot.
No, I just feel discontent with this "Happily ever after." No good story should ever have a happily ever after. I would love to see the Horde fall to chaos (And I have not a single Alliance toon) struggling between nobility and their dark past, with a tyrannical leader come into play that must then be resisted. A Horde civil war.
And if the same thing happened to the alliance that would suit you too I assume?
But it did happen in the Alliance, the founding of Durotar and the treachery of Perenolde/Alterac. And the Blood Elf plot line as well, the one in TFT.
The Stormwind nobles story has yet to be resolved.
Also, the BE story has yet to be resolved - no one has taken Kael'thas' place, unless you count Lor'themar "I'm too good for a voice actor" Theron. Only reason he's a faction leader is because he's required for the metachievement.
Not in the same way. It wouldn't be as deep, because they don't have the same dark backstory they must constantly live in the shadow of. Don't get me wrong, Horde is twice as interesting to me as Alliance, which is exactly why I would prefer it happening to them. For Alliance, I would like it to become much more of an Orwellian government type thing than an outright civil war, perhaps with a small rebellion faction you could join with.
Post by
taurenmoo812
pyramid breaker:
But it did happen in the Alliance, the founding of Durotar and the treachery of Perenolde/Alterac. And the Blood Elf plot line as well, the one in TFT.
How is the founding of durotar even considered a dark event for the alliance? That doesn't make sense.
Faceshield said he wants to see what good the horde has die off and have it made into a twisted version of what it is now. If thats to compared something the alliance would have to be turned into an ultrazealous faction that can't even find alliances with its own and would break apart.
But I digress, derailing not helping much there.
Post by
Monday
pyramid breaker:
But it did happen in the Alliance, the founding of Durotar and the treachery of Perenolde/Alterac. And the Blood Elf plot line as well, the one in TFT.
How is the founding of durotar even considered a dark event for the alliance? That doesn't make sense.
Faceshield said he wants to see what good the horde has die off and have it made into a twisted version of what it is now. If thats to compared something the alliance would have to be turned into an ultrazealous faction that can't even find alliances with its own and would break apart.
But I digress, derailing not helping much there.
Because it pitted two different armies of the Alliance against each other, and in the end it didn't do much for Horde-Alliance relations.
Although I misunderstood part of his post (glossed over it). I think it would be a kinda neat plot trick, but only perhaps until a world event brings them back up. Because however much you try and deny it, the Horde is savage, it is what it is. I'm not saying that's bad, but the savagery will catch up to some (especially orcs) someday.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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