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Why Paladin tanks don't like shields, and why they shouldn't complain.
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Post by
Squishalot
Hoping to turn this into a sticky for the Priest forums, since we occasionally get some of you guys over in our
Paladin Forums
asking why our tanks moan and groan about your shields.
Just for clarification, it's generally not your fault
, and if they're MT'ing or in 5 man content, then they're b****ing over nothing. Send them here to learn why.
Firstly: Your spell -
Power Word: Shield
Base SP coefficient is roughly 80%, plus 40% from
Borrowed Time
, and you also get a 15% bonus to your shields from
Imp PW:S
. So someone with 2000SP will shield for:
(2000 * 1.2 + 2230) * 1.15 =
5324 damage.
or
2000 * 0.8 + 2230 =
3830 damage
for non-Disc priests.
Now, let's look at it from the Paladin's perspective. Shields impact two things negatively - threat and mana recovery (which feeds back into threat).
Paladins gain a significant amount of mana from
Spiritual Attunement
. Specifically, if you can imagine that a tank will take about 1.6k damage per second, he'll recover back 400 mp5 from healing.
If a paladin is shielded, 5324 damage will be absorbed and not be subsequently healed, meaning that he will lose 266 mana in that period, or about 1k mana per minute if used on cooldown. In a low damage fight, prolonged, this can be a significant dent to mana recovery.
This is much more important at lower levels
when a paladin doesn't have
Divine Plea
(at L80, this provides about 450mp5 on its own).
Discipline Priests can counter this partially with their
Rapture
talent. 2% of a Paladin tank's mana is only about 110 mana or so, but this helps mitigate the mana recovery problem, as well as reducing the cost of your healing/mitigation. Holy Priests will generally cost a Paladin the same amount of mana as a Disc priest will, but without as much damage reduction.
It's still a concern for Paladins who are off-tanking. A great deal of Paladin mana recovery comes from
Blessing of Sanctuary
, which doesn't typically get activated when all you're doing is taking AoE damage and aren't being focused on. Mana tends to go down the drain pretty quickly as an off-tank.
-------
The second aspect is threat. Paladins use shields of their own, and bless it with
Holy Shield
, meaning that they do Holy damage to the attacker whenever they block. They may also endow their shield with other useful things, such as a
Titanium Shield Spike
for extra damage, and using it may also proc other nice threat-generating effects such as
Reckoning
.
Due to a quirk in the hit mechanics, if an attack is absorbed by a shield (
PW:S
), it cannot also be blocked by a shield (errmm...
Titansteel Shield Wall
). So if an attack is absorbed by PW:S, the resulting impact is that there is
no backlash damage caused by Holy Shield, Shield Spikes, and any other 'on hit' mechanics
, resulting in a decrease in threat and lower DPS (for those tanks who care about the latter).
Again, from a threat perspective, this is fairly meaningless for single target tanking at higher levels, but can come into effect in AoE situations where a great deal of threat is caused by 'on hit' abilities such as shield spikes, Holy Shield, and Retribution Aura (not sure if this procs when PW:S is up, but I believe it does).
FYI for those people who've replied already - I've just proved to myself that this is a load of crap. Threat is not an excuse at all for any tank to complain about shields.
So in summary:
1) If a L80 paladin is complaining about PW:S and they're the MT, tell them to read up on their class more, because they shouldn't have a threat issue, and the mana loss is negligible. If they're complaining about the reduced damage, then they're a DPS meter maid and should be avoided.
2) If a L80 paladin is complaining about PW:S and they're AoE tanking, take it off them. The extra threat generated from Holy Shield is nice, as is the little bonus from Reckoning. For AoE/trash hits, it's better that a Paladin can block them and deal backlash damage. This is most likely to occur running through vanilla / BC raids, where trash won't actually hit through the shields as fast as end-game trash.
3) If a paladin is off-tanking, chances are that they won't want to be shielded because of the mana problems. Give your shields to someone else who needs it more.
4) If a low level paladin (eg, anything in vanilla / BC) is complaining about PW:S, then listen to them, and just heal them instead of shielding. They are likely to have both mana (especially if they're still learning to tank at earlier levels). Save your shields for the DPS most likely to take damage/aggro.
5) If they're having problems surviving *and* having mana issues, then it's either your fault as a healer, or his fault as a tank. One of you needs to go read up more on your class. If you're reading this, chances are it's not you, so feel free to
send him here
where he'll be flamed as a noob should.
Post by
265062
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
1) If a L80 paladin is complaining about PW:S and they're the MT, tell them to read up on their class more, because they shouldn't have a threat issue, and the mana loss is negligible.
It shouldn't make a great deal of difference. Divine Aegis doesn't help, certainly, but a MT should have plenty of mana recovery without worrying about your shields.
An off-tank will hate you though. But it's just a matter of restructuring your raid healing so that someone else is healing the OT. In 5-man content, as the single healer, it shouldn't ever really be an issue at end-game.
Post by
179128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
PoM was changed so it gives threat to us now.
Post by
Patty
Squish, the only problem is that quite a lot of Disc's "healing" and regen is reliant on shields - And I have never encountered a paladin tank who is struggling with aggro because I am using PW:S.
Post by
karlusdavius
Due to a quirk in the hit mechanics, if an attack is absorbed by a shield (PW:S), it cannot also be blocked by a shield (errmm... Titansteel Shield Wall). So if an attack is absorbed by PW:S, the resulting impact is that there is no backlash damage caused by Holy Shield, Shield Spikes, and any other 'on hit' mechanics, resulting in a decrease in threat and lower DPS (for those tanks who care about the latter).
that's so wrong it hurts. Paladins and warriors can block dodge and parry while PW:S is active. The damage you don't block, will be absorbed by the PW:S. It's winwin. for example,
Attack hits Jeff for 1000
You shield blocks for 500
You gain 2% mana
PW:S absrobs 500 damage
PW:S Breaks
You gain 2.5% mana
You continue facerolling.
No paladin should go OOM MT or OT'ing ever. ever. ever! Regardless of shields.
Post by
147929
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
No offense Squish this is just my opinion from bothsides fo the coin. I know you bolded the fact that this is more an issue to low level tanks with PWS but its a trend Ive seen too much in the high levels too. Just want to clear it up.
And I value your opinion :)
It is a trend with high level pallies too, but they're the ones I say should be ignored and avoided. See point 1 - tell them to read up on their class more.
I do agree with you, but plenty of Paladins tell their Priests not to shield them. Then Priests come onto the forums to find out why, see nothing in their forum, so they check the Paladin forum. If a sticky will help stop people from needing to brave the evils of the Pally forum, then it's worth it, no?
I'm happy to brush up the language to make it clearer that the mana and threat is generally a non-issue if you prefer. But I'd still like it here as a resource so that budding Disc Priests can shove it in the face of all the Paladins who b**** and moan over it.
(As for AoE eating through shields faster, right now, I'm imagining a Stockades run, and a Paladin building up no threat because of the shields as he's running through the dungeon. :) But point conceded. Just because it's trivial though, doesn't make it less factual.)
Due to a quirk in the hit mechanics, if an attack is absorbed by a shield (PW:S), it cannot also be blocked by a shield (errmm... Titansteel Shield Wall). So if an attack is absorbed by PW:S, the resulting impact is that there is no backlash damage caused by Holy Shield, Shield Spikes, and any other 'on hit' mechanics, resulting in a decrease in threat and lower DPS (for those tanks who care about the latter).
that's so wrong it hurts. Paladins and warriors can block dodge and parry while PW:S is active. The damage you don't block, will be absorbed by the PW:S. It's winwin. for example,
Attack hits Jeff for 1000
You shield blocks for 500
You gain 2% mana
PW:S absrobs 500 damage
PW:S Breaks
You gain 2.5% mana
You continue facerolling.
No paladin should go OOM MT or OT'ing ever. ever. ever! Regardless of shields.
Have you actually tried it?
A couple of days ago, svirve ran a test on the Pally forums with an unhittable tankadin (all attacks will be blocked, parried, dodged or missed) with Sacred Shield. Absorbed attacks were never blocked and vice versa. An attack can either be blocked or it can be absorbed, but not both. Have a go and see. No 'Absorb''ed attacks will be blocked, and thus will not proc 'on block' abilities.
And what makes you think an OT won't run out of mana? Unless you want your mages and boomkins to eat dust when the MT becomes incapacitated, you want your OT keeping threat on everybody too. To do so will require close to a full rotation, meaning that they've got all the mana expense, with barely half the mana recovery.
Edit: Topic renamed with clarification at the top to make it clearer that this isn't Pally QQ, but something that Priests can shove in the faces of QQ'ing Paladins.
Post by
Paolo
In all seriousness -- is there anything more to this issue than "L2DivinePlea"? I'm only talking end-game here.
Also, your comment in the
pally thread
made me lol.
it's recommended that you heal as Holy, generally, and all the more reason to at lower levels then.
Post by
300899
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
In all seriousness -- is there anything more to this issue than "L2DivinePlea"? I'm only talking end-game here.
Not much more. Alternatively, the paladin should
pull more mobs
.
When i had issues running out of mana i didnt blame the tank for taking too much damage i just got some more regen.
If tanks are running out of health, is it your fault or the tanks' fault? If the DPS dies, is it the tank's fault for not holding aggro, or the DPS's fault for going great guns before the tank's ready? Responsibility for party management goes to the whole party, not just one person. If you're running out of mana, I'll slow the pulls to give you more time to regen in between fights. I won't just say "gear up, n00b" and keep pulling.
Post by
300899
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
SlowSide
that's so wrong it hurts. Paladins and warriors can block dodge and parry while PW:S is active. The damage you don't block, will be absorbed by the PW:S. It's winwin. for example,
Attack hits Jeff for 1000
You shield blocks for 500
You gain 2% mana
PW:S absrobs 500 damage
PW:S Breaks
You gain 2.5% mana
You continue facerolling.
No paladin should go OOM MT or OT'ing ever. ever. ever! Regardless of shields.
While shields were changed to absorb damage after the hit roll so tanks still can rage / mana from dodge, parry, and block that is different from proc'ing block abilities such as Holy Shield. No damage taken = no ability proc'd as the hit did not actually land, it was adsorbed.
Also as someone who has OT'd many times I can tell you it's dam easy to go OOM in low AoE damage fights. Lets take a look at a typical 969 Pally tank rotation.
HotR
->
HS
->
SoR
->
JoW
->
Cons
That is a total of 49% of our base mana spent in 7.5 seconds, many Tankadins don't have more than their base mana, those that do typically only get +10 or +20 from a combo of
powerful stats
&
nightmare tear
JoW has a
CHANCE
on hit to restore 2%. So if lets say JoW was already on the Boss, and this was the second time through the rotation, during that I would get 5 swings in, so 5
CHANCES
to gain mana, best case all 5 proc, I get 10% of my base mana back while burning 49%.
Throw in
Divine Plea
since no self respecting Tankadin would go into a boss fight w/o it. Over tha same 7.5s rotation DP would give back an extra 12.5% of the Paladins mana.
So lets see where we end up -49% +10% +12.5% = -26.5%. So The OT is still loosing more than 25% of his mana every 7.5 seconds.
BoSanc
is all but worthless as the OT, even in fights where tanks trade the boss, it only gives mana when I'm getting beat on &
getting mana from heals
.
When the boss is on the other tank & the OT is not taking enough damage it is very hard to keep up on threat & not run out of mana, this can make boss trades touchy at times, low mana = low threat = not keeping the boss out you.
Post by
SlowSide
Yea and if the tank runs out of mana i dont keep pulling, i am sorry but i am not going to stop using half my healing spells cause the tank doesnt want to have to take a drink, your mana regen is not my problem.
You can try to say well it is your problem cause then wipes happen blah blah blah, If a tank doesnt have enough health for a fight mechanic, gearing is wrong, if they cant keep enough mana to where they have threat issues, gearing is wrong, etc.
I have been a disc priest since before it was cool to be a disc priest, i have never run into the QQ issues that i keep reading about pallies and disc priests. I am usually assigned to the pally MT in our 25M raids, no issues whatsoever.
I have done 5M with a pally tank, absolutely no issues.
And if all these arguments held truth then it would be even worse for me and i would see it, my sp in 25 is right around 3800, my shields are pretty damn tough, if they were causing issues it would be blatantly apparent. They are not.
Sky is not falling, pallies get back to tanking, priests get back to healing!
1) Healing the MT in a 25m you won't have issues as the shields will pop quickly & they will get heals, plus all the normal DP, BoSanc, etc.
2) "If Paladins are running out of mana maybe they should look at their gear instead of their healer" + "if they cant keep enough mana to where they have threat issues, gearing is wrong" Are you suggesting that Pally tanks start wearing holy gear for more mana ? Or cloth for more spirit / mp5 ?
3) 5 mans with a Disc isn't bad if the Pally knows what they are doing, I tend to sacrifice DPS/threat & switch to seal of wisdom & make much larger pulls, things go fine. But earlier levels can be harder.
Post by
300899
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
300899
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
SlowSide
Yea i can understand this as well, but i dont think the issue is disc healing, if you are not on the boss, you are not getting heals or shields anyway which kind of blows that scenario above out of the water.
You are right generally the OT won't get shielded if there isn't enough damage, but some Disc just shield the raid constantly, and that can make OT mana problems worse. Not unmanageable, but it does take the tank paying more attention and knowing how to play better. Again it's not the healers fault, but they could make things easier in a few situations.
In 5 mans when pallies complain I tend to tell them to make bigger pulls, run through like a mad man & I promise to keep you alive. If they don't listen then I go easier on PW:S, as long as they can hold threat I'm willing to give them a break.
Post by
SlowSide
I dont think there is an issue with the class mechanics that are causing this, just sloppy play on both sides of the ball.
I suppose that is what it all comes down to, either the Disco is shielding when not needed, or the Pally needs to learn about mana management, or both.
Post by
ZoraLink
The only time paladin tanks complain is in 5 mans that they already overgear. Possibly even old raids they overgear (10 man Naxx anyone?). However, in CURRENT, DIFFICULT content, shields are no more detrimental than any other form of healing for a paladin tank.
And if a paladin tank runs out of mana in a serious raid, I really am going to have to say: That's makes me very sad.
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