This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
The new voiced over battle for undercity
Return to board index
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
But it doesnt matter (Not as in we don't know who is right, as in I am right but you guys will never get over that, so there is no point).How can you claim this without anything to back up your claim other than the fact that the Forsaken are undead, and experiment on people?
We don't need proof.We do need evidence, because without it your argument is completely negligible and has no strength whatsoever. Its not going to happen in game because of the rating. Forsaken killing children is something we never needed proof for, we can easily assume it.I can assume that the Humans raped Orc children, but because of the rating it will never happen. Humans raping Orc children is something we never needed proof for, we can easily assume it. This is, of course, going by your logic.
Well, RotLK is our proof, but again, stubborness is to high.
Source where it states them as a child.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
How can you claim this without anything to back up your claim other than the fact that the Forsaken are undead, and experiment on people?
Because they take humans and use them as test subjects, and there is nothing stopping them from doing it to children.
Well, there are pretty much no children left in Lordaeron, to be fair. Human resistance has been all but wiped out, other than the SC and AD - Which I doubt are recruiting children. But, claiming things with no evidence is sort of shooting yourself in the foot. To quote someone on randomness;
Assume
makes an
ass
of
u
and
me
. Assumptions will never be correct until there is evidence. :P
Girl doesn't mean child necessarily, but it does mean female.
I never said "The forsaken are good" - My characters would tolerate them because they are taking decisive action against the Scourge. The morality of those actions would certainly be doubted, but that doesn't stop them from hugely helping the Blood Elves - which they have been doing since before the Blood Elves joined the Horde.
Post by
Skreeran
If your going to decide to kill some people, you better prepare for war. The Horde has been asking for this for way to long now.Fine then, we'll defend ourselves from your aggression, just as you claim to be doing.
There are thousands of innocents in the Horde, and we're not going to sit down and let you slaughter them for your so-called “justice.”
I have actually stop this "disbanding" stuff, its just not right. The Horde has pulled several crimes against the Alliance for years, and now that its finally going to be answered to, Horde players keep pulling this "Killing children" crap. The fact is, Horde have been killing children with thier experiments, so I don't have a lot of pity.Good. At least you're on the same page with your king.
You desire genocide. It looks like it's the Horde's turn to pull out the righteous defense act. At least one of my Horde characters has a child, and most of them are innocent of any malice against the Alliance. But Nakresh is not going to let you kill his little girl, I'll tell you that much. If you demand war, then Nakresh will be out there defending his family against those who threaten it. That's you, if you didn't know.
And the sound files were on MMOchamp, which is non-blizzard approved.
You didnt stop Sargeras.Blizzard named the sound files.
I doubt they just did it as a joke.
Like how you said you dont need proof that Varian was told Garona was retconed being mind controled?
It was "Just one of those things we can assume", as you said.That's different. It was directly stated that Valeera would tell Varian.
As for children, show me the children living in Tirisfal? The only humans in Tirisfal are the Scarlet Crusade, and thus it is within reason that the Scarlet Crusade.
The Forsaken also detest the Scarlets more than any other group of humans.
The Scarlet Crusade regularly tortures Forsaken, and even humans, who may very well have later become Forsaken.
Thus, it stands to reason that the Scarlet Crusade would be the Forsaken's primary targets for testing.
Even if a child was tested on (which you have no proof of), it would be as isolated an incident as a human raping orc children, and thus it cannot be used to damn the entire race.
When the book calls her "Women", it means she is simply female.
However, it called her 'girl' a few times...Girl is used to denote femininity. All it proves is that she is female, and relatively young. Hardly a child though. A 19 year old girl could very well be called a girl. A 22 year old girl could be called a girl. A 25 year old girl could be called a girl.
It hardly equates to her being a child.
After all, it was you who objected to Med'an's status as a child based on his appearance alone, despite Varian calling him a child. I don't see how this girl being tested on is so obviously a child when we have neither her appearance nor any reference to her childhood. By all accounts she's just a young woman.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Girl doesn't mean child necessarily, but it does mean female.
No, 'women' does not mean child necessarily, but 'girl' does.
It could also be used as a term for a young woman.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Well, there are pretty much no children left in Lordaeron, to be fair. Human resistance has been all but wiped out, other than the SC and AD - Which I doubt are recruiting children. But, claiming things with no evidence is sort of shooting yourself in the foot. To quote someone on randomness;
Hillsbrad towns.
There's no evidence of children being taken from these towns both in-game, and in-lore. Therefore, how will we ever know if your claim is true?
Definitions of "girl" According to google:
•a young woman; "a young lady of 18"
•female child: a youthful female person; "the baby was a girl"; "the girls were just learning to ride a tricycle"
•daughter: a female human offspring; "her daughter cared for her in her old age"
•girlfriend: a girl or young woman with whom a man is romantically involved; "his girlfriend kicked him out"
•a friendly informal reference to a grown woman; "Mrs. Smith was just one of the girls"
The female could be any one of these definitions.
Post by
HiVolt
•a
friendly
informal reference to a grown woman; "Mrs. Smith was just one of the girls"
The female could be any one of these definitions.
I doubt it's that one, heh.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
What about those dwarfs who were just taking a hike in Alterac, an were murdered by orcs just for being different? Should thier familys just let them remain dead and do nothing?The Dwarves were encroaching on Frostwolf land. The Frostwolves played no part in the first two wars, you know this.
Its not genocide. Genocide would be Doomhammer or Sylvanas.
This is simply a nation that has been attack for too long and demands justice for all thier innocent's deaths. Technically, that is genocide. No matter why it may take place.Genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.Genocide - The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.
There are quite a number of humans living in Hillsbrad, over 10,000. To assume that there are no familys is out-right silly. We never said that there are no families. However, it is difficult to go cradle snatching in a town which is bustling with a military force which has not been specifically weakened.
So a child was tested on, which I am now certain of when Patty made me double checkPlease, show us the source.
Oh no, this was quite a child, the book makes that quite clear when you think about it. Those ages are teenage considerably, but not exactly children.18+ is adult.
I have seen 9 year-olds labeled as 'Young women'. Med'an is not a child, he has grown up quite a bit and is capable of self-defense. The human girl was being killed by Forsaken, and Med'an attack Varian, and you labeled that as child killing.I've seen 7 year olds called a "young man" - This doesn't mean they are a man.
I would love to hear what you call the orcs killing draenei children.
Thats
quite
evil
, wouldnt you say?
Skreeran has already argued that the Orcs genocide against the Draenei was evil. However, Stormwind would not have been under the control of the Burning Legion if they tried now, whereas the Old Horde
were
under the thumb of the Legion.
Post by
Skreeran
Again with the "We can attack you, but you can't hit us".
What about those dwarfs who were just taking a hike in Alterac, an were murdered by orcs just for being different? Should thier familys just let them remain dead and do nothing?You could argue the same thing for the Warsong orcs in Ashenvale who were just taking a hike through the forest and were murdered by Night Elves.
Its not genocide. Genocide would be Doomhammer or Sylvanas.
This is simply a nation that has been attack for too long and demands justice for all thier innocent's deaths. And its not nearly the Horde's turn for the righteous defense act, thats what the Alliance is doing. How could you say that Horde's lives are above the Alliance's as an excuse? Is Nakresh defending his family from people who threaten it, or more so defending people who threaten other's familys?You said that you no longer believed the disband thing. What other alternatives are there?
You would kill or enslave Nakresh's daughter, and thus he fights to defend her. He's always been a strong proponent of peace, but if you want to kill his entire race, he will defend his daughter.
MMOchamp put Sargares there as an assumtion. On Blizzard's sound files, a "Myestrious voice" or something like that is put.
I really hate how people think "OMGZ, its a higher ranking demon! It just HAS to be Sargeras!"Dead wrong. The actual name of the sound file, as it is written in the games data, is Sargeras.
There are quite a number of humans living in Hillsbrad, over 10,000. To assume that there are no familys is out-right silly. Although the Scarlet Crusade made up thier own fraction, there were still many humans strugling to survive against the Forsaken and Crusade hunting them like animals.
Yes, they hate the Crusade the most, but thier goal is to drive humanity to extinction. And I know they kill humans too. I said in the past I like the Crusade, but I have changed my mind recently. The only thing I like now is that they kill Forsaken, thier voice actors, and thier unifourms.
But they are not thier only targets, what about the town of Southshore, which housed Stormwind's refuges? They admitted themselves that they want the human "scum" driven out of Hillsbrad. And don't change the subject, Crusaders and Scourge have zero activitys in Hillsbrad.
So a child was tested on, which I am now certain of when Patty made me double check, but that is an attack on all humans, which they seek to destroy. Half-orcs and humans vary by situation.1. Hillsbrad has little to do with the testing.
You can argue that children were killed in the Battle of Hillsbrad, or that the plague was tested on relatively innocent farmers there in Hillsbrad (the captured ones, they never used the plague against the actual town, only on one dog in the town), but as far as testing in Undercity, it's almost 100% certain that there are no children there.
2. Prove that it was a child in RotLK. All you have is that she's referred to as a girl. If Med'an isn't a child after being referred to a "a child" by Varian, how is this girl a child just by being referred to as a girl?
Oh no, this was quite a child, the book makes that quite clear when you think about it. Those ages are teenage considerably, but not exactly children.I've read the book, and I was under the impression that she was a young woman. Show me how it's so clear that it's a child.
I have seen 9 year-olds labeled as 'Young women'. Med'an is not a child, he has grown up quite a bit and is capable of self-defense. The human girl was being killed by Forsaken, and Med'an attack Varian, and you labeled that as child killing.
I would love to hear what you call the orcs killing draenei children.
Thats quite evil, wouldnt you say?By "young woman" I am referring to someone between the ages of 17 and 25. "Girl" can easily refer to someone of that age.
I am still of the resolute opinion that the girl in question was a member of the Scarlet Crusade, who hardly recruits children. It just makes sense. Scarlets are te primary target of the living-killing part of the plague. Scarlets are closest. Scarlets are the most hated.
And yes, the killing of Draenei children was abhorrent, and those that did it can never make up for it. Not even Saurfang.
But the entire Orc race should not be blamed. Dranosh did not participate. Nakresh did not participate. Thrall did not participate.
Nearly two generations of orcs have been born since then.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
ENOUGH!
Your all just going around in frelling circles, CUT IT THE HELL OUT!
You all should realize by now that even if he's shown a mountain of evidence, Darkton does not change his stance. So just give up the ghost, ignore his posts and continue the discussion, all your doing is feeding his need to nerdrage on things he does not like.
Post by
Skreeran
This is not thier land, its not even thier world.
The Stormpikes were there way before them, but never noticed it, and, by your reason, were killed because they tresspassed in thier own territory.There was no one living there when they arrived. It was a barren, desolate wasteland. They were the ones that braved the dangers and made there living there. Their children were born there. It's there land as far as I'm concerned.
To quote your own
Brigadier General
:
"Make no mistake about it, <name>. The Horde is quite right when they say Alterac Valley is Frostwolf Territory."
So the Spartans were causing genoicde towards the Persians?The Spartans were fighting the Persians in Sparta. You might not see a difference between Sparta fighting the Persians in Sparta and the Spartans marching to Persia to remove the Persians from the world, but there is a definite difference there.
The Scourges destruction upon Lordaeron was some what retconed to have been less severe in RotLK. Like how in WC3, Arthas, KT, and Sylvanas would hunt human towns and in the end, Arthas would proclaim the Alliance is dead. RotLK completly skipped that part.Oh no... No, no, no... Everything was decimated. And everything that the Scourge didn't get, the Scarlet Crusade did.
Just about everything north of Silverpine was completely killed.
Just did.No you didn't...
A source is a direct quote. It never says she's a child. All it says is "girl," and that can mean many things. My 13 year old sister is a girl. A 19 year old teenager is also a girl. A 24 year old young woman is also a girl.
There are several different scales.
Some people concider 14-17 to be tweens, and 18-21 teenagers.In my opinion, "child" would refer to someone 16 or younger.
They were not under the thumb of the Legion, Medivh / Sargares tricked them to coming, but they didnt even have to tell the orcs to kill the humans.They were full of a demon-blood induced bloodlust that caused them to attack anything they saw. They're not like that now. Genocide against the draenei was evil, and most of it happened before the demon blood. Humans committing genocide against the innocent generations of orcs would be just as evil.
No, that was actually the night elves land and the orcs were destroying it.Alterac Valley is
actually
the Frostwolf's land and the dwarves were destroying it.
I no longer chose to discuss this part because Nakresh is a fan-fic character.Nakresh represents me. I could say "I will defend my family and the innocent," but you'd say "you're not an orc."
But Nakresh is. And even if he isn't canon, I'm sure that there are dozens with similar stories. They never did anything to the humans, but now you're coming to kill or imprison their children, so they'll defend their families.
Where are you getting that from? Is it an actual Blizzard sight?From inside the MPQs!
The
actual
name of the file, from inside the game, is WG_Sargeras_HOR01.wav.
Try it in game... Copy and paste this: /run PlaySoundFile("Sound\\Creature\\Sargeras\\WG_Sargeras_HOR01.wav");
What is you diffenition of 'young woman'? Even if she was in her early twentys, its still pretty bad.
However, it just seems like they would have pointed out if it was a crusader or not.It also seems like they would have pointed out if it was a child or not.
Except that they have a valid reason to be testing on Crusaders, along with a greater breadth of opportunity.
Varian said at the end of The Battle for Undercity that they had found many defiled corpses of innocence and Alliance./facepalm
He did not... You're just making stuff up.
It just doesnt make sence to always focus on the Crusade as much as you think. We have heard countless times from them that humans are the scum of Azeroth that should be destroyed, so why spare children? When that comes up, the subject is changed to "Not all Forsaken are bad", or something like that.I don't think that if they carried out said genocide that they would spare children, no. I don't think they were testing on them either, and you always drag that up.
Show us the proof or stop talking about it.
And the point remains, the Crusaders are closer, more hated, and more important for testing.
Post by
Rankkor
as usual. darkton talks but does not walks. dude show proof of what you say of keep the mouth shut.
no evidence in-game or outside points at forsaken experimenting on children. none whatsoever.
even if you look at this from a logic POV it fails squat.
when you develop a plage or a viral weapon it's ridiculus to test it on children because toxins have diferent effects depending on the size of the test subject, what is commonly a lethal dose on a child can merely wound an adult sized subject.
as such, experimenting toxins on children would yield useless results that would be impractical on a battlefield.
after all the alliance doesn't use child-soldiers, it uses adult men and women, as such having field-tests conducted on children would be pointless and a waste of time.
and in case you didn't know the forsaken where greatly pressed by time to develop a plage ASAP, thus making even more pointless to waste time and resourses testing their toxins on children, when the result of those tests woudn't contribute to the research at all.
so DROP THE GODDAMN "THEY POISONED OUR CHILD" CRAP!
just because on "world of darkton" the horde experiments on children doesn't mean that in "World of Warcraft" they do.
even then, the experiments where clandestine, once the lid on the whole project was revealed what did thrall do? placed the surviving members of the RAS under house arrest, and placed kor'kron the warrior elite of the horde to keep the undead on a tight leash.
seriously, stop spitting fan-fic on these forums, either show LORE, quotes, quests, in-game or novel/comic evidence to back up your bull-S$%# or shut the hell up-.
it seems all you do is show fan-fic now-a-days
also in case you dind't know, varian is just using the forsaken as an excuse, his real beef is against the orcs, after all the speech he gives thrall only mentions the orcs "green skinned abomination" comes to mind.
even if the horde evicted the forsaken varian would still fight them because he can't let go of the past, he sees all orcs as mindless animals, and he said so himself on the argent tournament as well as on the dalaran summit and on theramoore.
Your all just going around in frelling circles, CUT IT THE HELL OUT!
You all should realize by now that even if he's shown a mountain of evidence, Darkton does not change his stance. So just give up the ghost, ignore his posts and continue the discussion, all your doing is feeding his need to nerdrage on things he does not like.
amen :P this is just like our previous debate as if varian as the right to judge garona, when he was also mind-controlled and his actions during the mind-controll costed lives too.
despite the overwhelming evidence against him he just dismissed the parts he didn't liked saying "that's not posible" and then insulted me.
it would seem that's his modus-operandi when he's losing an argument
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
I'm right!
No! I'm Right!
...
Do you see where I'm going with this?
Post Reply
This topic is locked. You cannot post a reply.