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When do you want MORE melee players in raid?
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Post by
Ippon
By your standards, sure. By the standards of non-elitists, no.You compare people that all know how to play. To do otherwise is useless.
Good for you guys. But unfortunately for your argument, you =/= the entire WoW populace.Again, you compare good players. To do otherwise is a complete waste of time.
And not all of it is single target damage. If you'll notice the top dps for 10-man Lord Marrowgar; it's a rogue doing 25k dps. If you think that's legit single target, you've gotta be kidding yourself.
It's not my fault you can't read charts properly.
Pro-tip: Bugged reports where people do a hundred thousand damage don't matter.
Post by
skribs
I remember seeing spreadsheets done by a rogue who compared a bunch of different assassination gear sets or rotations, including:
Rupture-inclusive or rupture-less rotations.
Always hit capped, but various amounts of ArP, AP, expertise, haste, and crit (basically AP stacking vs. hitting caps and some in between)
Overall, the difference was the minimum at roughly 8.4k and the maximum at roughly 8.6k. Really, a 3% difference between the WORST and BEST of the possibilities, out of roughly 12 options. That's a very small amount when you factor in lag, whether or not you stand in fire, etc. Unless there is a significant difference between the two specs, there really is no reason to say "player is bad for speccing into X." Some people may be better at a certain spec, may enjoy a certain spec better, may be geared more for that spec, or may have a reason for going that spec. For example, an arms warrior and a fury warrior play quite differently - I do great as arms but not as good at fury. A survival hunter needs less ArP than a marksman hunter, so if you're geared for agi you probably want to go SV but if you geared for ArP/haste you probably want marksman. A fire mage has a lot of AoE potential, but that doesn't mean they should only be on AoE fights - their DPS on bosses isn't going to be that much lower.
There are 2 types of elitists - the first type is the type that will only use groups stacked via their criteria. These are the people who won't accept a DPS class unless they go for "the best" spec, even when their spec is less than 5% below "the best." These are the people who will not do a dungeon run unless everyone in group is overgeared/levelled for the content (e.g. "tank is under 30k health for H UK? I'm out"...when tanks were doing it with 21k before everyone got geared from raids or badges). Basically, if you do not fit within the paradigm of this elitests version of what is and isnt acceptable - which is usually a VERY narrow avenue, then you are ridiculed or shunned.
Then there's the second type - the person who wants to get the most out of their raid, but is understanding. This type will still require your gear to be gemmed/enchanted, will require food and flasks, will ask you know your class, pay attention, and read up on fights before coming to a raid. However, they will allow people to have fun, and play a spec they may enjoy better.
Having 1 DPSer go from 8.5k to 8.8k on a fight isn't going to have nearly the effect as having a DPSer go from 4k to 6k. Going up 3% damage done will have much less effect on raid success than switching to the proper add 4 seconds sooner. Good fire mage > bad arcane mage, and I'd rather replace or retrain the lesser player than force the better player to switch. If you are at the point where ALL of your players are doing their theoretical best for their spec and you're still failing, then maybe you should look at switching out for the 3% more damage. But if people are doing their theoretical best within the spec, you shouldn't be failing.
However, even the second group knows you need to bring to the raid the right setup. If you need 2-3 tanks and 5-7 healers, you don't come with 1 tank and 10 healers. You dont come with 5 tanks, and you don't come with 23 DPS. Similarly, if you need 10 ranged for a fight because of adds that need to be killed by ranged (think Saurfang when you dont want BP stacked or Grobulus' adds which do close-quarters AoE, although those can go down slower than the beasts), you don't bring 13 melee and 3 ranged. Which is why I asked the original question.
Post by
Ippon
When you're pushing for server firsts and world-ranking, 3% matters.
Especially when you're talking about your whole raid. How many people are allowed to slack and play their "fun" spec? 1? 5? 10? Everyone? How do you decide who gets to do what they want and who gets to do what's best?
It's far simpler, far more effective, and just flat-out better for everyone to give 100% on progression content. There is no reason not to.
Going up 3% damage done will have much less effect on raid success than switching to the proper add 4 seconds sooner. Good fire mage > bad arcane mage, and I'd rather replace or retrain the lesser player than force the better player to switch.You can't start introducting extra variables here. You take the best player, and he specs the best spec. You're not choosing between a poorly-specced great player and a properly specced idiot, you're choosing between specs for the
same
player. In general, quality of play trumps everything, followed by gear, followed by spec (assuming we're only talking about specs that are at least playable, not some 0/0/71 or 20/05/26 abomination).
And as an aside, many of the examples we've been using are a lot more than a 3% difference.
Post by
skribs
Ippon, 99% of successful raiding guilds do not have the luxury of having every player who is best-in-class or second only to other members of the guild. If you are pushing for world firsts, then yes it matters. If you are pushing for progression in and of itself, most guilds (which may not progress quite as far) are filling slots, rather than picking between "hmm, this guy can do 8k but this guy can do 8.2k, so we'll bring guy #2." No, it's more like "this guy only does 3k DPS, but it beats the 0 from an empty slot, so come on and raid with us."
Raids are going to be benefitted quite a bit more by having those 3k DPSers bump up to 5k than by having those 8k DPSers bumped up to 9k. Once everyone is up on par, then maybe look at your 8k players and have them switch. Let's take a hunter who is the guild's top DPS, but is SV. His guild may make him respec to MM, which may or may not increase his DPS (depending on his itemization and how good he is at the other spec). However, if he feels too pressured to do something he doesn't enjoy as much, he may leave for a slightly less progressed guild (although unless you are in a world-first-competitive type guild, chances are you can get into a more progressed guild as well) and have a lot more fun.
It may not be the best way for the top 1% of the world's guilds, but its how it works for 99% of them.
Post by
Monjaru
When you're pushing for server firsts and world-ranking, 3% matters. You keep pushing for those. But as I've been saying, we're not just talking about you (hard to understand as that is... >.>), we're talking about a general consensus of WoW players. All the example you are giving cover a spectrum of
maybe
3% of WoW players, whereas examples we are trying to present to you take in a far larger quantity.
Especially when you're talking about your whole raid. How many people are allowed to slack and play their "fun" spec? 1? 5? 10? Everyone? How do you decide who gets to do what they want and who gets to do what's best? As per usual, you are still only thinking about yourself. We aren't talking about people playing a terribad spec that will potentially screw over someone's chances of pulling competitive dps. These specs not only bring more fun to some people (You know, fun? The reason people
play
this game? Ringing any bells here?), but they still have the potential to pull great numbers in terms of dps. Just because they aren't "the best", they can still pull enough to keep your guild progressing.
It's far simpler, far more effective, and just flat-out better for everyone to give 100% on progression content. There is no reason not to. It's not simpler, because then people start to have second thoughts about what they are doing. If someone enjoys playing one competitive spec that they have stuck with since day 1, and you suddenly want them to change for a theoretical dps increase of
less
than 5%, they may very well say, "Sorry dude, I'd much rather stay as X spec. It's not going to give me much extra dps to switch to Y. You understand, right?"
But because you've got a perfectionist attitude, you'll tell 'em, "No, either change or get out." They won't change and you've got a spot you now need to spend time to fill. Valuable time you could be spending working out boss fights instead of complaining that someone's dps isn't quite as high as it could be. Chances are, unless the fight you are stuck on is set to be a dps race, it isn't the dps' fault that you're wiping.
You can't start introducting extra variables here. You take the best player, and he specs the best spec. You're not choosing between a poorly-specced great player and a properly specced idiot, you're choosing between specs for the
same
player. In general, quality of play trumps everything, followed by gear, followed by spec (assuming we're only talking about specs that are at least playable, not some 0/0/71 or 20/05/26 abomination).
And as an aside, many of the examples we've been using are a lot more than a 3% difference. If you're talking about a good player who could spec for a small increase in dps for the sole purpose of being "the best" they can be, it's not going to be much more than 3%. Maybe 5%. Because we aren't talking about switching from one of the "abomination" specs you listed, we're talking about perfectly viable specs that you want to squeeze a couple extra dps out of. So no, any examples we can give on the subject should not be more than around 3% increase. Aka, not going to change you downing the boss or not (unless it happens to be a dps race and you truly just don't have enough to take out said boss before the enrage).
Post by
skribs
It's not simpler, because then people start to have second thoughts about what they are doing. If someone enjoys playing one competitive spec that they have stuck with since day 1, and you suddenly want them to change for a theoretical dps increase of less than 5%, they may very well say, "Sorry dude, I'd much rather stay as X spec. It's not going to give me much extra dps to switch to Y. You understand, right?"
But because you've got a perfectionist attitude, you'll tell 'em, "No, either change or get out." They won't change and you've got a spot you now need to spend time to fill. Valuable time you could be spending working out boss fights instead of complaining that someone's dps isn't quite as high as it could be. Chances are, unless the fight you are stuck on is set to be a dps race, it isn't the dps' fault that you're wiping.
Exactly my point. If you have someone doing 8k DPS and you say "switch to this spec that does 8.5k or get out" and he chooses to get out, you just lost 8k DPS. If the person you get to replace him does 7k DPS, well you lost 1k DPS instead of the 500 you tried to gain. Most replacements are going to be undergeared compared to that "might get 3% more" type guy, so you also have to factor in all the gear that player got and left with as a result of another player's elitism. The
better
a player is, the
less
you want to do to make them want to leave, because it will be
easy
for them to join another guild and will
hurt
your guild if they leave. That's why you focus on the lower players first - they're easier to replace and they've generally got more room to improve anyway.
Post by
MegaVolt
Good point on the enh shamans megavolt. On those we actually weren't talking so much AoE damage as we were splash damage...for example WW is used on single targets but does more damage on AoE. That's why I was including CL into the list, because (unless they've changed it) it's powerful within a single target rotation, but it does added splash damage if there's 2-3 targets up.
That's exactly why I mentioned Magma Totem and Fire Nova. Both are "splash" for the enhancement Shaman since both are naturally a part of his single target rotation and will greatly increase his damage output if there happens to be an add nearby. It's just like the Paladins attack automatically hitting multible mobs.
While it's true that some ranged classes have some kind of minor splash (like CL for elemental Shamans) it's not close to even be in the same order of magnitude as the free splash most melee classes get. As much as I hate to say it, Ippon, despite being kind of a jerk about it, has a point there.
But then again as you absolutely correctly mentioned having splash damage doesn't matter all that much. If a pure AoE rotation results in higher overall dps than a single target rotation with splash then the pure AoE rotation is just superior and there is little reason to being melee for their splash damage alone.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
In my guild I don't know a single person that wouldn't respec for a massive 3% DPS increase tbh.
Post by
Monjaru
In my guild I don't know a single person that wouldn't respec for a massive 3% DPS increase tbh. I'm sorry, could you repeat that? Did you just say
3%
and...
massive
in the same sentence?
... you remember that thing Blizz implemented in 3.3 with the new LFD feature, that 5% increase to all sources of damage? Yeah, that's bigger than this "massive" 3% you're talking about.
Please, don't ever say that again.
Please
.
Edit:As much as I hate to say it, Ippon, despite being kind of a jerk about it, has a point there.
But then again as you absolutely correctly mentioned having splash damage doesn't matter all that much. If a pure AoE rotation results in higher overall dps than a single target rotation with splash then the pure AoE rotation is just superior and there is little reason to being melee for their splash damage alone. So... lemme get this straight... he has a point... but it doesn't matter all that much? So essentially, you felt the need to tell us he has a point.. but that his point has no relevance in this thread? Wow, okay. Thanks for the tip.
Post by
skribs
Mega was saying he agrees with Ippon that melee have a splash advantage over ranged, but also agrees with me that splash in itself doesn't matter.
Post by
Orranis
In a fight like Lord Marrowgar it favors melee more I think. As a range I have to break people of the bone spike which lovers my dps on bosses. On Deathbringer Saurfang range have to kite the bleed beast and kill it thus, lowering dps. On faction champs in ToC melee is also needed since they can somewhat tank the heavy dpsers if needed and have more stuns/CC abilities than most range.
But you don't get ^&*!ed by a bone storm, which tskes your DPS to 0.
Post by
MegaVolt
@Monjaru: Skribs was faster than me. #2 there ;)
Exactly my point. If you have someone doing 8k DPS and you say "switch to this spec that does 8.5k or get out" and he chooses to get out, you just lost 8k DPS. If the person you get to replace him does 7k DPS, well you lost 1k DPS instead of the 500 you tried to gain. Most replacements are going to be undergeared compared to that "might get 3% more" type guy, so you also have to factor in all the gear that player got and left with as a result of another player's elitism. The
better
a player is, the
less
you want to do to make them want to leave, because it will be
easy
for them to join another guild and will
hurt
your guild if they leave. That's why you focus on the lower players first - they're easier to replace and they've generally got more room to improve anyway.
If you have to worry about your dps leaving the guild then you have bigger problems then min/maxing. This really shouldn't be an issue.
And any dps that brings 8k (usually good players, very interested in the game, dedicated) should want to maximize his own dps anyway, if there is a possibility to get 3% "free" damage they usually jump right on it.
Of course it is better to bring that 4k dps dude up to 6k. But why not
at the same time
bring the 8k dude to 8.5k if all it takes is a build change? All possible efforts to maximize raid dps should be made.
Actually I'd say that if it's about gear I'd probably give an upgrade to the dedicated 8k player to get him to 8.5k before I give it to some 4k noob that just joined the raid team and might be gone again in two weeks.
Post by
skribs
If you have to worry about your dps leaving the guild then you have bigger problems then min/maxing. This really shouldn't be an issue.
And any dps that brings 8k (usually good players, very interested in the game, dedicated) should want to maximize his own dps anyway, if there is a possibility to get 3% "free" damage they usually jump right on it.
While a lot of people would switch for 3%, for many reasons people may want to stay their current spec. I'm not saying that everyone will leave if you suggest it, I am saying that if you
require
it or really pressure someone to switch they may choose another guild. Plus, some people enjoy a spec that might be considered "subpar" on the spreadsheets but in practice does nearly the same damage. So yes, if arcane is higher DPS then a mage should go arcane instead of fire. But that doesn't mean the mage is bad for staying fire if he enjoys it more - he can still do competitive DPS.
Actually I'd say that if it's about gear I'd probably give an upgrade to the dedicated 8k player to get him to 8.5k before I give it to some 4k noob that just joined the raid team and might be gone again in two weeks.
I'm agreeing with you, partly, but lets consider 2 scenarios:
Well lets assume the 4k guy is someone who's been in the guild for a while but just hasn't gotten very good. He's not on the "A-team" of the raiders but he's a good friend and fills a slot that would otherwise be empty (this is a conundrum MANY guilds fall into - do I bring low DPS or an empty slot?). You also have the 8k who also has been with the guild for a while. An upgrade which may give the 8k will up him to 8.2k DPS. If they're in the same gear initially, then that would logically pump the 4k up to 4.1k DPS. Hmmm...which is better for the raid? (I agree in this case)
Now let's assume you have a DPSer doing 4k with an 1800 GS on WoW-Heroes (depending on the boss, my DK in all pre-naxx 10 gear can do >4.5k on some bosses in heroics) and a DPSer doing 8k with a 2900 GS. In this case, the upgrade for the 8ker is probably from 251 to 264 (or something similar) whereas the 1800 is going from a 187 blue to a 264 piece. His low DPS is a result of bad gear, not bad skill, so giving him the piece will have a much bigger effect on the raid.
All the factors (gear, spec, skill) are simply a multiplier of each other to promote the most DPS. Granted, a good spec usually means you'll have better skill (better put: a bad spec means you probably have bad skill, a good spec may mean you have bad or good skill), but your gear can only increase your DPS by as much as your skill allows it to.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Yes Gesha, but we're not talking about changing from 200 ArP to 200 Str, which basically affects DPS behind-the-scenes. What I mean by BTS is that it is choices which are not done during raid which show up indirectly on the damage meter by how those affect your abilities.
What we are talking about is someone going from a rotation of:
Instant Pyroblast > Imp Scorch > Living Bomb > Fireball to Missile Barrage > Arcane Blast.
(I'm not sure if those exactly are the best rotations, my mage is only 69, but it's a decent example for the point I'm trying to make either way). The fire mage may play fire better, or may simply enjoy it more. He may want to improve by going arcane, but he may also want to min/max within the fire spec. Fire also benefits more from crit, whereas arcane benefits more from haste. So he may actually lose DPS if he's already min/maxed his gear for fire and switches to arcane.
Another example, especially before patch 3.3 with the change to Scourge Strike, is the DK. Unholy is going to be IT-PS-BS-SS-BS > SS-BS-SS-BS, whereas blood will be IT-PS-OB-HS-HS, OB-HSx4. The blood rotation is best within UH presence, which has 15% faster movement - which people take into consideration even if it won't show up on most spreadsheets. Unholy has to sacrifice 2 talent points to retain 15% movement in blood presence. Blood benefits a lot from ArP (in 3.3 now UH does too) whereas UH benefits more from haste (necrosis and BCB) - which means depending on what kind of gear you get you may do more or less DPS by respeccing.
In both cases, there's more factors than simply "X is higher on a spreadsheet, therefore if you go Y you're an idiot." It depends on what gear drops for you - remember not everyone is in BiS gear, and sometimes rotations can change depending on what gear you're in (e.g. variations in scaling with SP, crit, etc). While you may benefit more from haste than crit, that ilvl 264 crit piece may be better than that ilvl 226 haste piece, so you'll end up gearing for haste. At that point, maybe a crit-based spec is better than one that could do more DPS if you were in haste gear. There's also a new learning curve with a new rotation, which will mean for a bit you'll probably lose DPS by having someone respec.
On the other hand, the person who is regemming doesn't have to relearn anything. All that changes for him is how the numbers are calculated - other than that he does the same thing he's always done.
I'm not saying that min/maxing is a bad thing, I am all for it. However, not everyone is for it - a lot of good players want to do the best they can do
within a spec they enjoy
. And those people should not be considered bad players.
Post by
150529
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ippon
I'm agreeing with you, partly, but lets consider 2 scenarios:
Well lets assume the 4k guy is someone who's been in the guild for a while but just hasn't gotten very good. He's not on the "A-team" of the raiders but he's a good friend and fills a slot that would otherwise be empty (this is a conundrum MANY guilds fall into - do I bring low DPS or an empty slot?). You also have the 8k who also has been with the guild for a while. An upgrade which may give the 8k will up him to 8.2k DPS. If they're in the same gear initially, then that would logically pump the 4k up to 4.1k DPS. Hmmm...which is better for the raid? (I agree in this case)
Now let's assume you have a DPSer doing 4k with an 1800 GS on WoW-Heroes (depending on the boss, my DK in all pre-naxx 10 gear can do >4.5k on some bosses in heroics) and a DPSer doing 8k with a 2900 GS. In this case, the upgrade for the 8ker is probably from 251 to 264 (or something similar) whereas the 1800 is going from a 187 blue to a 264 piece. His low DPS is a result of bad gear, not bad skill, so giving him the piece will have a much bigger effect on the raid.But you'd get a bigger effect still by recruiting someone appropriate. Upgrade should go to the 8k player and you should recruit a legit DPS. Obvious exception for a "help the guild re-roll" of someone you already know, but that's a special case.
Post by
skribs
But you'd get a bigger effect still by recruiting someone appropriate. Upgrade should go to the 8k player and you should recruit a legit DPS. Obvious exception for a "help the guild re-roll" of someone you already know, but that's a special case.
I remember these commercials a while back that went something like "Welcome to the town of perfect. In this town, dinner cooks itself, clothes are always clean, and every cookie tastes like it just came fresh out of the oven. But most of us don't live anywhere near perfect, that's why..."
I only reference the old Walgreens commercial because of its relevance to your post - yes, you'd get a bigger effect by recruiting a better player. But better players dont magically appear because your guild is recruiting them, it takes time to find these good players. It depends a lot on the realm, on the guild (is it a new guild, do they maybe have a bad stigma from a few members from a year ago that were bad in a PuG, etc) and even then those people you get may be those who do max DPS at the cost of raid awareness (e.g. "moving from the fire lowers my DPS, just heal me"). Yeah, on realms which could do GDKP runs through ToGC tribute runs guilds - especially the better guilds - may be able to easily replace people. But a lot of realms have the elite players scattered across several guilds who have a home in that guild. The majority of guilds are bringing people to fill slots, because they're caught in this trap:
We have bad DPS, which is hindering progression. We are trying to recruit better DPS but it takes time, especially to find someone with good DPS and raid awareness who will fit in with this guild.
We can't punish the current bad DPS, because if we sit them then we have another empty slot to fill. Yeah 3.5k is low, but 3.5k > 0, so until we can replace them we're going to bring them.
We can't force the bad DPS to do better, because they're stubborn and think it doesnt matter. So either they continue to do bad DPS or they leave - and bad DPS is the lesser of 2 evils if we have no replacement for them.
In a perfect world, the only way to make your raid better is to stack the raid and have everyone then min/max so you have the maximum DPS possible. This may be possible on some guilds in certain realms. However, for most guilds, it's simply you take the best group you can get and hope it's enough. The guilds you're referring to that can simply off-hand boot a DPSer and immediately pick up someone who's at the theoretical maximum are few and far between. I'm talking about the other 97% of raiding guilds which have to use whatever players - however good or bad - are avialable to them as best as possible.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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