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Is Varian Wrynn the de facto leader of the Alliance?
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Post by
Rankkor
varian is the leader of the humans, but the alliance is not a tight group, they are at best a loose coalition, by that I mean, "anyone can go in, and at any time anyone can go out".
dalaran separated itself from the alliance, guilneas separated itself from the alliance (though they'll rejoin again on cataclysm) quel'talas separated itself from the alliance.
that's because nobody is forced to stay, plp can join if they want to, but each nation retains their soverany, and anwsers to their respective king.
if a nation wants to leave the alliance, they are entitled to do so ,and nobody on the alliance can do something to stop it.
varian is only king to the humans, if varian orders a draenei to kill an orc, said draenei is not bound to obey that command.
heck if varian orders a theramoore human to do the same that human is not bound by oath to obey varian (wich is the reason jaina teleported varian from undercity, and didn't suffered any consequences, if it had been a stormwind mage who pulled that off varian would had executed him for treason)
the horde is diferent, on the horde, the warchief is the big kahuna, the warchief's word is the law.
warchief says jump, rest of the horde says "how high"?
warchief says no more blight, and just like that, blight is illegal, even if the forsaken want to create more blight, if thrall forbids it, then they obey.
if on the alliance, the gnomes made a super-weapon like a nuclear bomb (don't look at me like that, there is a big-ass bomb on the alliance gunship) and varian forbids the use of such a weapon, the gnomes aren't forced to obey that command, they can disobey if they want to, that would hurt diplomatic relations witht stromwind but nothing serious woud happen to them.
on the forsaken side, if any of them disobeys thrall and continues to manufacture blight, they will get chopped down in so many pieces that it would take weeks to put them back togheter.
the alliance doesn't have a "leader" they have 5 leaders, each responsible for their side.
now, when all 5 races join togheter for a battle in wich all have agreed to participate then yhea, I can see varian leading that battle, but only because the other leaders agreed to participate, he can't force them to participate on the first place.
thrall on the other hand, if there is a battle in wich all 5 races will participate, thrall will lead that battle, and everyone will participate wheter they want to or not, unless thrall says otherwise.
horde and alliance are difierent in their way to do things.
Post by
451455
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Post by
229054
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Post by
Adamsm
Leading the recent campaigns against the Scourge of Northrend and the Forsaken of Lordaeron, he has solidified his status as the undisputed military leader of the Alliance.
If you have not watched Blizzcon when Varian was created, then this is not a thread you should take part in ;)Just because Wowwiki says it, doesn't make it true.
Honestly? I'd follow Magni, who fought in the War of the Three Hammers, I'd follow Tyrande, who's been a warrior priestess since the War of the Ancients, I'd follow Velen who's been keeping his people alive for 25 thousand years long before I'd follow Varian, seeing as he's never lead his people in a true war, just skirmish's against the Horde; the real commander's of the Northern forces? That was Bolvar, Brann, Maurdin and Vereesa. Varian may have created the Valiance Expediation, but he didn't lead it.
Hell, Jaina has more actual Combat experience then Varian does; the flight to Kalimdor, Battle for Hyjal and the 5 years leading up to Warcraft.
Until there is a Blue post proclaiming Varian as the new Commander, I'll continue to ignore his orders.
Post by
Patty
Delterius, I agree completely.
Without being politically strong, his military ideas will only go so far.
Post by
451455
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Post by
Adamsm
If Blizzcon said it, would that make it true?Yes, but Blizzard hasn't, they've said he's a 'military leader' not the Warchief of the Alliance.
mpossible, there is no way he would be alive.It was only 300 years ago, go look up the lifespans of Dwarves Dark before you say things are impossible.
He has not lead them to victory over the blackdragon flight who tried to take over Stormwind?
He has not lead them to victory over the forces of the Dark Irons? Defias? Warsong Outstriders? And now the scourge?Not a war, he ambushed Ony in her lair, it wasn't a war battle. The Dark Irons were a small group, not the entire army in Blackrock. He never fought against the Defias, he fled from them. The Outriders were defeated by Lo'gosh and the Sentinels. The only fight against the Scourge he had was the invasion at Stormwind, he has yet to take the field in Northrend.
Wrong.
He created it and leads it. Its his god damn army.
Bolvar took orders from Varian, not by himself.
Honeslty, that was absolutly wayward.
Varian is the highest ranking Commander of the Northern forces.Truth; he has not set foot on a northern battlefield at this time. Yes he gave orders to Bolvar.... but seeing as Bolvar willingly works with the Horde at Wrathgate, seems like those orders are coming from our paladin friend and not the King. As for the other 3; Vereesa is a general with more experience then Varian, Maurdin trained Varian and his Frost Dwarves would never follow the King of Stormwind, Brann and the Explorer's are a group unto themselves; hence the reason why they help the Kirin Tor and both Horde and Alliance with in Ulduar, rather then listening to the little human.
And Varian has the flight to Lordaeron and Northrend, the Battle for Undercity, The fall of Icecrown Citidal, and he has existed for longer then most people in Warcraft.
Varian was 12 when he fled to Lordaeron, he was never on the Battlefield for the Second or Third War. For the third time; he has never set foot on the Northern battlefields. The Battle for the Undercity was a skirimish compared to Hyjal, and he was saved by a hero from that Battle; Jaina. Icecrown Citadel hasn't occured yet so you can't count that. And he's only 4 years older then Jaina, as she's 2 years younger then Arthas who's two years younger then Varian, learn your ages Dark.
Watch BlizzconI saw parts of it, and no where did they say "Varian is the new Thrall, leader of the Alliance and all the other leaders bow down and kiss his arse."
Post by
Skreeran
If Blizzcon said it, would that make it true?Can you get me a quote? I really don't think that Metzen said that Varian was the Alliance Warchief.
Impossible, there is no way he would be alive.Uh... Magni...
is
alive.
He has not lead them to victory over the blackdragon flight who tried to take over Stormwind?
He has not lead them to victory over the forces of the Dark Irons? Defias? Warsong Outstriders? And now the scourge?Well yeah, there was Onyxia, but that's hardly a war.
Dark Irons was one battle (he didn't fight a campaign against the Dark Iron nation, after all). What on earth did he do about the Defias? Tell his soldiers to kill them? Warsong, one battle. Scourge, he fought the battle at Stormwind, and then Bolvar handled the rest of the campaign.
Wrong.
He created it and leads it. Its his god damn army.
Bolvar took orders from Varian, not by himself.
Honeslty, that was absolutly wayward.
Varian is the highest ranking Commander of the Northern forces.And he doesn't do anything until the Battle of Undercity, and then disappears again until Ulduar.
And Varian has the flight to Lordaeron and Northrend, the Battle for Undercity, The fall of Icecrown Citidal, and he has existed for longer then most people in Warcraft, having been part of it for 13 years.See above.
Watch BlizzconI did. Get me a quote.
Post by
451455
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229054
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Post by
Adamsm
So... Magni fought a war while he was a new-born baby?
Sorry, but if he fought in that war at the dwarven adult age, he would have died of old age.Not really, maximum lifespan for an Ironforge dwarf is 450 years old.
You know, its not yet confirmed weather Varian had any military role in the First or Second wars, so stop saying that. As for the third, Medivh did not give Varian an inventation.So they let a 12 year old child onto the battlefield for the first war, and a 14 year old for the second eh Dark?
See as above for the "he has not set foot in Northrend."
And I am pretty sure that Bolvar worked with the Horde by Varian's command, seeing as how Varian knew about Wrathgate with the Horde when we bring him the shield. And Bolvar is to loyal to Varian to dis-obey him like that.
Vereesa is in no way shape or form more expirinced then Varian, she started learning how to be a ranger like 10 years ago, and Varian has been trained to be a leader his whole life.
Muradin trained Arthas, not Varian. You might have confused him with Hyjalmar.
And just why would his forst dwarfs never follow Varian, but yet they serve his army (to a degree)
Brann simply wants treasure, and his guide is more to Ironforge then thier own fraction.
Its seems like you guys like taking people who happily follow Varian, and turning them against him.
I also can't stand how everyone is automaticly a better leader then Varian just because you like him.
Its pretty stupied.Vereesa has been a ranger longer then 10 years Dark. She's also older then Varian so... yeah. The Frost Dwarves only follow those who prove themselves to the group; they might work with the Vanguard, but they serve under their king and only their king, there is no way in hell they would listen to Varian unless he under goes their tests, and seeing as nowhere does it say that... I'm guessing he hasn't. Brann has seen more combat then pretty much anyone else on the planet, learn more about him before you start bad mouthing him because you dislike him.
Just because you LIKE Varian doesn't make him the best in everything; there are hundreds of better commanders and soldiers out there then him, including those I named but you just brushed off because they go against your belief's.
Varian is not some grand war leader like you think, he's a king at most, who leads the Stormwind Humans.... and Only the Stormwind humans as I put in my first post in this thread. As I said there; if Varian tried to command the people of Stromguarde, they would laugh at him and listen to their prince. If he tried to lead the Worgen.... same thing, a laugh and listen to their King, Genn Greymane who has a hell of alot more experience then Varian. Most of Theramore would follow Jaina before Varian because... guess what! She's been leading them the last 7 years and doing her best to keep them alive.
And no Dark, Icecrown Citadel doesn't count because we have no idea what is going to happen there; for all we know, Varian waves so long at us as we head deeper into the Citadel and keeps fighting on the outside.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Skreeran
Metzen said somthing like, "At the end of the kick-ass human's adventure, he will become the leader of the Alliance.Gonna need a citation on that. Varian is leader of Stormwind and the Alliance Vanguard alone. Not the Alliance. Even if he hold a position as Military Leader (a la Lothar), he still can't tell Velen, Tyrande, Malfurion, Jaina, etc. what to do.
Madoran Bronzebeard
was the Ruling Thane of the Bronzebeard clan during the WoTH, apparently.
No, he took a large army of men, and clashed with several dragon-spawn. The Dark Irons were not the whole army, but they were being commanded by it. He was still in stormwind when Vancleef died, so he was part of thier defeat (see the defias page on Wowwiki). Varian is Lo'Gosh, and he led the Sentinels. Varian does not need to "set foot" in Northrend to be a part of it. Honestly, if he left, Stormwind would be completey un-guarded and helpless. Thats what Bolvar was for, to be Varian's right-hand in Northrend. Why would he leave Stormwind all alone?Fighting against one small group of Dark Irons is hardly war experience.
He did practically nothing to defeat Vancleef, other than tell his army to kill them, but that's hardly war experience either.
The battle against the Warsong was just one battle. Again, hardly war experience.
And I've started questing on my paladin again in Northrend, and I still have yet to see any indication that Varian's doing anything about this war.
Brann simply wants treasure, and his guide is more to Ironforge then thier own fraction.Hardly. Brann is WoW's Indiana Jones (not that Harrison Jones cameo fellow... :P). He wants knowledge. He's worked with Horde and Alliance to obtain knowledge in the past as well. He wrote most of the RPG book (in canon, anyway). He knew that Yogg-Saron had to be dealt with, and Varian wouldn't do it. So he got the Explorer's League to get up and do something about it.
Its seems like you guys like taking people who happily follow Varian, and turning them against him.
I also can't stand how everyone is automaticly a better leader then Varian just because you like him.Not just because we like them. Jaina has more war experience than he does. Tyrande has waaaaaaaaaaaaay more war experience than he does, Velen is about a billion times wiser than he is, Magni has more war experience than he does... I can go on...
Its pretty stupied.You remind me of someone... I can't put my finger down on who though...
You know, its not yet confirmed weather Varian had any military role in the First or Second wars, so stop saying that. As for the third, Medivh did not give Varian an inventation.Um... He was like... 4 during the first war, and 10 during the second.
And I meant compare Icecrown to Hyjal, not Undercity to Hyjal.What's he done in Icecrown? Certainly less than Jaina did at Hyjal.
And Jaina did not "save" Varian, Broll said Varan had as much armys as seen in Hyjal. I think lore-wsie, Varian did not tackleThrall and Sylvanas alone, he had a army. And how would he be talking to when he said "Look around you, brothers and sisters!"?He's talking to the smallish group of soldiers who were following behind him.
Thrall also had a smallish group with him. And Saurfang was on his way. And he had an army outside the city as well (the ones shooting catapults).
Thrall also is able to destroy cities and necropoli alone. And also has the same or greater gladiatorial skill. Thrall would have won. Jaina saved Varian.
And Icecrown will happen, so it counts.It hasn't happened yet, but Varian is already leading. Jaina's also involved with Icecrown, so you might as well put that down on her bill.
Post by
Adamsm
Not really, maximum lifespan for an Ironforge dwarf is 450 years old.
You guys are confusing Madoran with Magni.
Yeah I just saw that... still Magni was active during the 2nd War... and we don't know how old he was at the time at time though.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Skreeran
Thrall also is able to destroy cities and necropoli alone.
Gosh I hate the comics.But God I love Thrall... :P
Post by
451455
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Post by
Skreeran
I meant he could have played a role that does not acctually involve stepping into the battle field.Not if he was a 10 year old.
I did some quests before the one were you prove yourself, and they treated me quite kindly.
They listen to thier king before all else.
Muradin says follow the Vanguard, frost dwarfs follow vanguard.But if Muradin disgrees with Varian, they don't follow.
Thrid, all I said was he is willing to work with anyone if it means treasure.It's not about treasure, it's about knowledge. He's not some greedy goblin.
Or mabye the people of Stromgarde welcome his help in thier troubled times? And I never said he would lead the worgen, I said he could be thier allies and they support each other.
And here you go again, saying everyone is a better leader then Varian just because you loathe him...The point is, while they may listen to an ally, he's not their supreme leader. He's their ally.
Most of Theramore would follow Jaina before Varian because... guess what!She's been leading them the last 7 years and doing her best to keep them alive.lmaoWhat? You don't think she's been doing her best to keep them alive? She has. She's jumped through diplomatic hoops to keep away war with the Horde, she fought at Hyjal to prevent them from dying, hell, if it weren't for her, Varian would still be wandering around without a memory.
Post by
Adamsm
Just because you HATE Varian doesn't make him the worest in everything; there are hundreds of lesser commanders and soldiers out there then him, including those I named but you just brushed off because you like them in your belief's.Where the hell do you get that I hate Varian? I hate what he is right now; a bigot and a loudmouth. Do you know why I liked him as Lo'gosh? Because he listened to his friends, he listened to others, and he didn't act like he knows best. What I really want, is for Blizzard to get him over this stupid war fixation and actually make him into a real leader, and not some "ME SMASH! ME AM HULK VARIAN!" Clone they have him as.
Or mabye the people of Stromgarde welcome his help in thier troubled times? And I never said he would lead the worgen, I said he could be thier allies and they support each other.Why? What has Stormwind ever done for the Northern kingdoms? More then likely they would treat him with careful regard until they were sure he was a good person or not. They have their Prince, they don't need someone coming out of nowhere saying he can fix all their problems; they've seen that before and Prestor almost destroyed the Lordaeron kingdoms.
And here you go again, saying everyone is a better leader then Varian just because you loathe him...So your saying Greymane, who was in the 2nd War, and has been fighting the Worgen curse for the last two decades, isn't a more experienced leader then Varian who has had relative peace in the south?
For the last f-ing time, I don't loathe Varian.
Most of Theramore would follow Jaina before Varian because... guess what!She's been leading them the last 7 years and doing her best to keep them alive.
lmaoHm, who was it that kept the city together after her father showed up? Who kept her people alive and not killed by the orcs? Who has been surviving alone, no support from Stormwind or the eastern Alliance?
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451455
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