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The Fate of the Horde
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Post by
315721
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Just on the side, remember that with the death of Arthas, no more forsaken will be produced. Actually, not necessarily. There are all sorts of necromancers out there, all who hold power over undeath. I would think that the Forsaken would accept any into their ranks who have overthrown their mindlessness in their own undeath.
I concede that should an all out war break out, there would likely be a 3-way split, with Jaina and Thrall forming a coalition. I would agree with this, so long as all things stay the way they are as far as character development with Garrosh and Varian goes.
I still maintain, that the horde is closer to such a breakdown than the alliance.
I believe that's only because the Horde's problems are much more open and glaring than the Alliance's problems. If we could see a bit more forceful resistance from Jaina with Varian, people's views on the matter could shift.
Post by
Rankkor
Regarding populations, the discussion
here
puts the estimates around 292k for the Horde and 800k for the alliance.
I think the spartans on the battle of thermopytale proved a point that in any war numbers DO NOT win a battle.
humans may be more numerous, but not every human is a warrior (or is trained in any combat art be it physical or magical)
humans are mostly civilians, with only a few studying combat in any form.
orcs are a warrior society, trained since childhood regardless of race in the arts of battle.
Human general, calling out the military reserves, on valgarde keep: you what is your profession?
Soldier1: tailor my lord.
Human General: go to the front lines.
Human general: and you what is your profession?
Soldier 2: Farmer my lord.
Human general: good, go to the front lines.
Human general: and you what is your profession?
Soldier3: Mason my lord.
Human General: good, go to the frontlines.
however on the horde..........................
Horde Warlord: ORCS WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?
Orcs: Are you kidding me? WARRIORS!
even the kids got the strong spirit of the horde on them.
(on warsong hold)
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Look at 'em, Ug. You know what those are?
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: No, popo, They look kind of like the pigs. Are they pigs?
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Those...
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Those are cowards.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: Are they cowardly pigs, popo?
/e Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy shakes his head.
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: No, blood of my blood, they are soldiers of the Alliance. Our sworn enemies.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: But popo, what are they afraid of? Why are they here?
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: They are here because they do not wish to defend their homes... their families.
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: They have given up and surrendered - willingly - to us.
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: Ug'thor, they are afraid to die
/e Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy scratches his head.
Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy says: I... I don't understand, popo.
/e Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy puffs out his chest and stands on his tip-toes.
Ugh'Thor Bloodfrenzy says: Lok'tar ogar, popo!
/e Ug'thor Bloodfrenzy Laughs.
Warden Nork Bloodfrenzy says: That's right, Ug. Victory or death
the horde is a warrior society forged on flames and perfected by thousands of yhears of combat expertise.
the alliance (wait that's unfair, what I meant was the humans, and gnomes) are not. most of their numbers are civilians with no combat experience or training.
whereas in the horde EVERYONE knows how to fight, from the lowliest peon, to the mighiest warlord, everyone is trained on the arts of battle since childhood.(only exeptions would be blood-elves, but that's it, as far as orcs, trolls and taurens, everyone is trained since childhood, as far as forsaken goes they too lack much civilians on their ranks, most choose a specialization when they are waken up, and stick to it for the rest of their unlives)
hehehehe, so you see my friend, we brought more soldiers to this war than you did...............
(and by warriors I don't mean just the warrior class, I mean plp capable of battle such as shamans, hunters, rogues, and even warlocks, the point is we may have less numbers, but we have more battle-ready combatants on our ranks)
Post by
Skreeran
I think the spartans on the battle of thermopytale proved a point that in any war numbers DO NOT win a battle.Well, the Spartans
did
lose that battle... :P
But I agree with everything else. I've made that point several times before in previous debates.
Post by
HiVolt
I think the spartans on the battle of thermopytale proved a point that in any war numbers DO NOT win a battle.Well, the Spartans
did
lose that battle... :P
But I agree with everything else. I've made that point several times before in previous debates.
Take
the Battle of Sterling Bridge
as a better example.
Post by
R1TeR
Or the
Battle of Cannae
where Hannibal killed all kinds of Romans with less troops
Post by
HiVolt
Or the entirety of the
Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire
.
Post by
Skreeran
Or the entirety of the
Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire
.Of course, in that one the Spanish would be the Alliance, using more advanced civilization and technology to defeat "savages"... :P
Post by
R1TeR
Or the battle of Plataea where the Greek citys ((horde)) fought againest the massive Persian army ((alliance))
the battle of Plataea
Post by
HiVolt
Or the entirety of the
Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire
.Of course, in that one the Spanish would be the Alliance, using more advanced civilization and technology to defeat "savages"... :P
But the fact remains that the larger numbers isn't the only thing that plays into who wins a battle, but then neither is tech, neither is training.
To win a battle, all you need is a better position than the enemy, that's what makes Chess and Go such good representations of war tactics. To defeat your enemy, all you need is an advantage of position, which neither the Horde nor the Alliance hold.
Edit: I should clarify, just because you hold a more advantageous position does not necessarily mean you'll win the battle. The other factors I mentioned play a part in it as well, but an advantageous position on the field of battle can more often than not, determine the winner.
Post by
Rankkor
the point remains, with the exeption of night-elves and draenei, most of the alliance is a civilian goverment, in wich not everyone serves in combat.
on the horde is the exact oposite, while the blood-elves may be an exeption to the rule, 90% of the horde serves in combat, and are more battle-ready than the average alliance peasant.
this is presicely because of their few numbers, most of the horde races are survivors of huge genocide, every one of them, because they are so few, they place extra emphasys on survival, and thus everyone who is a member of the horde is trained in battle, no matter if they are civilians or military, from the lowliest peon to the highest warlord, everyone is strong, trained, and ready for battle.
so, they may have larger numbers, but not all of them are combatants, whereas on the horde, everyone is a combatant, from the moment they are born to the moment they die.
and this is reflected on borean tundra when u listen to conversations by the valiance keep NPC's and then the warsong hold NPC's
Post by
Adamsm
whereas in the horde EVERYONE knows how to fight, from the lowliest peon, to the mighiest warlord, everyone is trained on the arts of battle since childhood.(only exeptions would be blood-elves, but that's it, as far as orcs, trolls and taurens, everyone is trained since childhood, as far as forsaken goes they too lack much civilians on their ranks, most choose a specialization when they are waken up, and stick to it for the rest of their unlives)Thats..... I'd have to say no Rankkorr, no civilization is all warriors, that's just a recipe for disaster. Yes, they know how to fight but if you look at a milita force, which is what most of the Alliance human's are, they know how to fight, so they'd be able to fight back against the Horde.
In a world like Warcraft; technically everyone is a fighter, they all know some self defense or weapon training even if it's as simple as just using a spear to fight off the Defias. The Horde is a fighting race true... but they have nothing on the Night Elfs/Blood Elfs, those two races have been fighting for almost 11 thousand years, they know tactics that would shame the orcs and humans. The only reason the Night Elves couldn't route the Orcs was that they drank the Demon Blood again, otherwise the Night Elves and Cenarius would have wiped them out, which would have meant a loss at Hyjal.
Post by
Skreeran
The Horde are composed entirely of warriors in the sense that they are all capable of throwing on armour and a weapon and fighting just as capably as a trained soldier. While a human tailor probably doesn't know how to fight any more than instinct, an orc tailor has been trained to fight and defend his family since birth, even though he's a tailor by profession.
And it seemed to me that the orcs were doing just fine against the Night Elves until Cenarius showed up. And they still are, even though Mannoroth has been killed and they are free from the bloodlust.
Like HiVoltage said, it really depends on a lot of factors.
The Alliance has a signifigant advantage when it comes to naval forces, but the Horde tends to have the advantage on the plains. Who would win just depends on who is leading. If Thrall or Saurfang is commanding the armies, I'd place my money on the Horde, but Garrosh... :\
Post by
R1TeR
I happen to think that Garrosh would be a great general but not a great leader
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I happen to think that Garrosh would be a great general but not a great leaderI don't think so. He proposed attacking Valiance Keep and Howling Fjord Alliance Base (can't remember teir names), without whom the Horde surely would have been routed from Northrend.
Likewise, the fighting that the Horde and Alliance are doing in Icecrown (Broken Front, Orgrim's Hammer/Skybreaker conflict) drastically weakens our ability to attack the Lich King. I'd say Garrosh uses poor tactics, fighting unnecessary battles out of pride and rivalry, rather than focusing on the task at hand.
Actually, if you take a look. The orcs did fine against small scouting forces while Cenarius showed up with an entire army of night elves.
Cenarius and his trees may have been a big factor during the Orcs' initial defeat, but most of the job was made by the numerous night elves and their chimaeras, etc.
Then why haven't the Night Elves routed them yet? The Orcs are still in Warsong Gulch, and are set to take a large part of Ashenvale in Cataclysm.
TLDR: The orcs only had a war culture because of a war like past, now everyone has it. Tradition matters, but not that much after all we've been through.While this is true, all it takes is a look around Stormwind to find weakness. I sincerely do not believe that the Innkeeper in Stormwind could stand up against the Innkeeper of Orgrimmar. Nor do I think that the Wine Advert guy (he gives you one of your first quests, I believe) could stand up against Gamon.
The Horde not only has a far more prominent warrior culture, but then there's the size and strength thing as well.
Post by
Adamsm
The Horde not only has a far more prominent warrior culture, but then there's the size and strength thing as well.
Size isn't everything.
Post by
Skreeran
The Horde not only has a far more prominent warrior culture, but then there's the size and strength thing as well.
Size isn't everything.
But it certainly is something... :P
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
The idea that Rankkor was getting at is that the Alliance's numbers are inflated with civilians, while the Horde's numbers could be entirely counted as trained soldiers if needed.
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