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Most people care way too much about nothing.
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
There is no end of the knowledge. You're gaining the knowledge for the sake of the knowledge. Animals only work towards ends outside of the action...Give me one example where they don't.
Post by
TheMediator
You don't seek knowledge to seek knowledge, you do in fact do it for some end. Personal enjoyment, research, or whatever, but you have a goal when you do something. Whether or not your goal is attainable is completely irrelevant.
Post by
241152
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Birds who build nests build it for their chick-lings to be protected for a long time to come. That counts as planning ahead in my opinion.
This is actually supporting Hyper's point that there's an end that the animals are working towards.
However, Mediator's point is pretty much everything I wanted to say in reply. If you seek knowledge for personal enjoyment, then personal enjoyment is your end. If you seek knowledge to learn more knowledge, then learning more knowledge is your end. If you seek knowledge for the sake of seeking knowledge and for no personal benefit, then please come over and mow my lawn, because it's good to do for the sake of it too!
Post by
MyTie
I would liken the majority of humanity to cows; they stand around, eat, defaecate, fornicate, and die.
The truth of the OP hinges on whether or not the differences between cows and humans are 'nothing'. Objectively, there are differences between them, so that renders the OP as either false, or subjective. In other words, this is just your opinion. I have a higher opinion of humanity's potential, under proper guidance of course.
Post by
241152
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
You don't seek knowledge to seek knowledge
, you do in fact do it for some end. Personal enjoyment, research, or whatever, but you have a goal when you do something. Whether or not your goal is attainable is completely irrelevant.
Yes, you can. The goal is to gain knowledge. And you're doing it by gaining knowledge. It's a completely speculative act.
Post by
457193
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Naxxos
This thread can be summarized in one word. Vindication.
Post by
Squishalot
You don't seek knowledge to seek knowledge
, you do in fact do it for some end. Personal enjoyment, research, or whatever, but you have a goal when you do something. Whether or not your goal is attainable is completely irrelevant.
Yes, you can. The goal is to gain knowledge.
And you're doing it by gaining knowledge
. It's a completely speculative act.
I wish I could just sit there and gain knowledge without needing to do anything to get it! My uni grades would be much better than they are!
You're seeking knowledge to gain knowledge. That's very different from gaining knowledge to gain knowledge.
Edit: Just to clarify the process:
1) Goal: To gain candy.
2) Action: Walk out to candy store and purchase candy.
3) Result: Gained candy.
4) Goal: Achieved, now have candy.
1) Goal: To gain knowledge.
2) Action: To sit and ponder metaphysical concepts and debate with MyTie, TheMediator, Skyfire and Squishalot.
3) Result: Gained knowledge.
4) Goal: Achieved, now have knowledge.
What you're suggesting (or how it's coming across, at least):
1) Goal: To gain knowledge.
2) Action: Gain knowledge!
3) Result: Gained knowledge. (W00t, that was easy!)
4) Goal: Achieved, now have knowledge.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I wish I could just sit there and gain knowledge without needing to do anything to get it! My uni grades would be much better than they are!
You're seeking knowledge to gain knowledge. That's very different from gaining knowledge to gain knowledge.
Edit: Just to clarify the process:
1) Goal: To gain candy.
2) Action: Walk out to candy store and purchase candy.
3) Result: Gained candy.
4) Goal: Achieved, now have candy.
1) Goal: To gain knowledge.
2) Action: To sit and ponder metaphysical concepts and debate with MyTie, TheMediator, Skyfire and Squishalot.
3) Result: Gained knowledge.
4) Goal: Achieved, now have knowledge.
What you're suggesting (or how it's coming across, at least):
1) Goal: To gain knowledge.
2) Action: Gain knowledge!
3) Result: Gained knowledge. (W00t, that was easy!)
4) Goal: Achieved, now have knowledge.
Nope your first would be:
1) To fulfill your sugar craving/hunger/whatever
2) Obtain and eat candy.
3) Result: Sugar craving fulfilled
4) Goal: Achieved, now satisfied.
See, the end is apart from the candy. That's a practical end.
Your second would be:
1) Goal: To gain knowledge.
2) Action: To sit and ponder metaphysical concepts and debate with MyTie, TheMediator, Skyfire and Squishalot (ie the act of gaining knowledge)
3) Result: Gained knowledge.
4) Goal: Achieved, now have knowledge.
See the end is
not
apart from the knowledge. That's a practical end.
Post by
TheMediator
But your goal isn't to gain knowledge. It might be because you enjoy being knowledgeable about topics you discuss, because the act of gaining more knowledge is enjoyable, or some other reason. But you have some end goal. You might have intermediate goals along the way, but the end is to fulfill some basic desire. Just like you can teach an animal some tricks- it might perform those tricks, but it performs them out of the desire for the food that you give it. Sometimes you might do something and not even know your true goal, but you still do have that goal, even if its on the subconscious level. The only real difference is that you can comprehend more abstract immediate goals along the way to your more basic desire.
Post by
Squishalot
Secondly there is no evidence that animals do anything else but act for a practical end. As humans we can do things for their own sake: look at the stars, or whatever else.
A dog chases it's tail because it wants to catch it. Humans have the ability to do things for the sake of the actions themselves...for instance I love studying linguistics--not because I have any practical use for it, just because I enjoy the act itself.
You don't seek knowledge to seek knowledge
Yes, you can. The goal is to gain knowledge. And you're doing it by gaining knowledge. It's a completely speculative act.
1) Goal: To gain knowledge.
2) Action: To sit and ponder metaphysical concepts and debate with MyTie, TheMediator, Skyfire and Squishalot (ie the act of gaining knowledge)
3) Result: Gained knowledge.
4) Goal: Achieved, now have knowledge.
See the end is
not
apart from the knowledge. That's a practical end.
So, just to summarise what you've said:
1) Humans can act for the sake of acting, as opposed to a means to an end.
False, each action is to meet a goal purpose.
2) A dog chasing its tail must be acting for the purposes of catching its tail, rather than for the enjoyment of the act of chasing.
Presumption with no basis.
3) The goal and the act can be one and the same.
This statement just didn't make sense, however you or I worded/interpreted it...
4) Actions meet a predetermined stated goal, thus achieving a practical end. Thus, contradicting your point 1 and reinforcing the point that animals aren't really that different from humans insofar as motivation for taking action is concerned.
So removing that as an argument, your primary argument against animal consciousness is the regret factor, which you haven't satisfied.
And for the record, it's 3am over here, so I'm off to bed. Glad I checked before heading off!
Post by
Patty
All I'm going to say is that what you think is "Nothing" Is probably quite substantial to someone else. It's all a matter of perception.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
1) Humans can act
for the sake of
acting,
as opposed to
a means to an end.
False, each action is to meet a
goal purpose
.
You just denied my position by stating the exact same thing.
2) A dog chasing its tail must be acting for the purposes of catching its tail, rather than for the enjoyment of the act of chasing.
Presumption with no basis.
The act is over when the tail is caught. Thus, the end is the catching of the tail.
3) The goal and the act can be one and the same.
This statement just didn't make sense, however you or I worded/interpreted it...
It makes perfect sense. One of my goals in life is to go sky-diving. The act and the goal are the same--the only way I can accomplish the goal of sky-diving is to sky-dive.
4) Actions meet a predetermined stated goal, thus achieving a practical end. Thus, contradicting your point 1 and reinforcing the point that animals aren't really that different from humans insofar as motivation for taking action is concerned.
I never said every action has a practical end. Every action has an end, yes.
Post by
TheMediator
It makes perfect sense. One of my goals in life is to go sky-diving. The act and the goal are the same--the only way I can accomplish the goal of sky-diving is to sky-dive.
Your goal is to obtain happiness, which you wish to do by going sky-diving. This is no different than animals who obtain happiness by playing with their master, being well fed, etc.
If you mean that something does something to do that thing, then yes, animals all the time do things to do them. A dog wishes to bark at you - he does this by barking at you.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
It makes perfect sense. One of my goals in life is to go sky-diving. The act and the goal are the same--the only way I can accomplish the goal of sky-diving is to sky-dive.
Your goal is to obtain happiness, which you wish to do by going sky-diving. This is no different than animals who obtain happiness by playing with their master, being well fed, etc.
If you mean that something does something to do that thing, then yes, animals all the time do things to do them. A dog wishes to bark at you - he does this by barking at you.
I can assure you it has nothing to do with happiness; I'm deathly afraid of heights. I want to do it because it's there to do.
Post by
TheMediator
In some way, you feel the desire to do it. Fulfilling this desire makes you happy. Pleasure and pain are the most basic motivators. Even if you don't feel it on the conscious level, subconsciously you have a desire that gives you pleasure when fulfilled.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
In some way, you feel the desire to do it. Fulfilling this desire makes you happy. Pleasure and pain are the most basic motivators. Even if you don't feel it on the conscious level, subconsciously you have a desire that gives you pleasure when fulfilled.
Yes there is a desire. Desire is a consequence of natural inclination. You must have an inclination to the end before you can move towards it.
Ends =/= consequences. There are several possible consequences: My parachute could fail and cause me to die, or I could have the time of my life, or lots of other things. So yes happiness may be a consequence of my actions, as might pain. Those aren't my
ends
. Even if I die a horrible and painful death doing it, I still will have fulfilled the end of sky-diving.
Post by
TheMediator
The happiness isn't a consequence, it is exactly the end that you seek. Even though you might die, knowing that you went sky-diving will still give you that happiness that you sought out.
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