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Healing Per Second
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Post by
MegaVolt
You are contradicting yourself.
First you say burst heal is all about getting the highest amout of healing when the damage has happened
right now
and that's why you look at a 1.5s interval instead of a 3s interval.
In the second paragraph you say that pre-casting Renew (which will tick right after the damage has happenend and will increase your burst there) is pointless.
That doesn't make any sense.
It's simply math really:
If you do not pre-HoT then you have X amount of healing in Y seconds after the damage hits, X being the sum of your CoH, PoH or whatever you decide to cast.
If you do pre-HoT
additionally
to your other spells you will have X amount of healing in Z seconds after the damage hits.
Yes, X is the same since everyone is topped off, in the end the same damage has been healed. But the difference is: Z < Y! Since you have more healing you have more HPS, meaning that the time it takes to heal everyone up to full is lower.
Following your own logic (which is very much right!) pre-HoTing on predicable damage will increase your HPS for that damage and thus offer higher burst healing in that particular time frame.
There really isn't much to argue about really, it's like saying 1+1=2, it's just totally obvious and I'm amazed that people on this forum are seriously claiming that this isn't true.
What you can claim is that the additional HPS is not worth the mana. After all the gain is rather small and the mana cost is substancial. I'm not saying that you should do it on every single fight. But you should be aware of the fact that this is one possibility to increase your HPS, to increase your burst healing in encounters with predictable raid wide damage.
Additionally I have something to add to you initial post:
You are absolutely and completely right about pretty much everything for fights with high burst damage. The difference between correct HPS interpretation and the difference to DPS are important there.
This is true for every Ulduar encounter except Iron Council hard mode.
But with ToC this changed a little. Ulduar had a lot of encounters with periodic critical damage in which burst healing was simply needed.
ToC on the other hand has two encounters out of 5 (that's a whopping 40%) that feature not high periodic critical (lethal) damage but constant non-critical (meaning not lethal) damage.
In such encounters HPS actually is pretty similar to DPS. There is no need at all for AoE burst healing since nobody will die from a big AoE damage spike. At worst you need single target burst healing (e.g. somebody went for the wrong orbs in Twin Valks) and if your dps don't fail the fight mechanics you may not need any burst healing at all.
HPS in those fights is not about burst healing, it's about providing a constant tickle of heals that negate the constant creeping raid damage. As I said, pretty much like DPS - as a healer you want to maximize your steady healing output.
Post by
91278
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Post by
153976
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Post by
OscarDivine
I haven't killed Algalon, and I'm not having a go, but:
HPS
in those fights is not about burst healing
, it's about providing a constant tickle of heals that negate the constant creeping raid damage. As I said, pretty much like DPS - as a healer you want to maximize your steady healing output.
Isn't that sort-of in the defintion of HPS? Numerator being amount of healing done, denominator being time over which healing is observed. Whilst I can see constant, steady healing being a reasonably viable way to
heal
Twins (such that such healing best matches the constant ticking damage), I can't see it being the best way to
HPS
it.
He changes his definition of what "HPS" is to him based on how he feels it could be used in a sentence. Don't mind him. Sometimes he means, "Healing done", other times he means "Rate of healing", and still other times he means, "Doing more healing than normal". It's why I've given up trying. ... or have I?
Post by
MegaVolt
That's not true.
You list fights with other mechanics then persistent low raid damage. I was talking about fights that have aura type damage. What does your list have to do with my statement? And how is your list supposed to show that my statement is not true? And since you only quoted 2 lines out of my quite long post am I right to assume that you agree with everything else I wrote?
Again:
Twn Valks and Anub have persistent aura damage. I counted NRB as 1 encounter so ou tof 5 you got 2 with aura type damage. Even if you count NRB as 3 encounters you still got 2 out of 7 which is a lot.
And yes of course, in those fights the
tanks
will still need burst healing. After all the bosses hit hard. But seriously, what do the tanks have to do with this discussion? It's about raid healing. If you as a raid healer need to burst the tanks on a regular basis in a fight that has heavy raid damage then your tank healers need a smack on the head.
But even if we count tanks - they still only need
single target burst healing
, not AoE burst. As such it is completely and utterly irrelevant for the discussion we are having here.
Bottom line:
For the raid healer we have 2 encounters out of 5 (or out of 7, depending on how you count) in which there just is no heavy burst AoE damage but instead a constistent aura type damage.
Looking as HPS only in the form of burst HPS was quite valid in Ulduar but in ToC it has changed.
He changes his definition of what "HPS" is to him based on how he feels it could be used in a sentence. Don't mind him. Sometimes he means, "Healing done", other times he means "Rate of healing", and still other times he means, "Doing more healing than normal". It's why I've given up trying. ... or have I?
Are you trying to make this personal? Or are you just trying to prove that you are incapable of understanding very basic concepts?
HPS means healing per second. Of course this term can be used to describe multiple things. There simply is not one single "right" way. Everything that produces healing over any time falls into the category of HPS.
There are two main categories of HPS that are important:
We have the burst healing in which you try to maximize your healing output in a window of several seconds. This is what the OP is about, burst HPS. It of course is only relevant in fights that actually feature burst damage. This HPS number describes the biggest burst heal you can produce in a short timeframe.
But you also got the aura type fights I mentioned earlier. In those you do not have to produce extreme HPS within a 5 second window. Your healing strategy there should be to maximize your
long term
HPS, the HPS over the whole fight.
Both are naturally different, one is HPS in a timeframe of a few seconds, the other is HPS in a timeframe of a few minutes.
Both are important and which one is more important only depends on the encounter. Burst HPS is everything on Algolon (and generally most Ulduar encounters except Iron Council hard mode) while long term HPS is everything on Twin Valks.
Again: I'm only talking about raid healing here. Tank healing is a completely different thing (and AoE burst is of course irrelevant for tank healing anyway).
You can not deny the importance of either.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
It's why I've given up trying...
just stating the obvious hombre.
Post by
MegaVolt
Yes, because the way you phrased what you did, you were
implying
saying that they
didn't
have burst mechanics.
This is true. I said that they don't have (raid) burst mechanics.
Of course every fight has tank burst mechanics. Every single swing of a boss is a burst on the tank.
But neither Twin Valks nor Anub p3 have any sort of raid wide burst whatsoever.
Twin Valks has the aura damage and it has individual burst damage (single target, not raid wide) on people that eat the wrong orbs.
Anub has the life leech and it has the debuff which is more consistent (but a bit higher) raid damage, no burst.
So yes, in 2 out of 5 encounters raid wide burst damage is of absolutely no concern and consistent raid damage is what you have to worry about as raid healer.
I will say this only once: You will not get me replying with any substance to this kind of posturing. I respond to that to which I desire to respond. Infer what you like about that, but I imply nothing.
I will say this only once: I asked a simple question. I wanted to know if you agree with my other points (there are plenty of other things in that post) or not. If questions about the validity of arguments are a "kind of posturing" you do not respond to then this discussion really is pointless.
Post by
387103
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Post by
Braevia
I'm a little confused here. So the ideal situation being discussed is low, persistent AOE damage. In a raid of 10 or 25 people, wouldn't renewing all of them a) take a long time and b) cost more mana than simply using AOE heals when they get low enough?
Also, isn't it kind of a rosy picture to assume that people take an orderly amount of low raid damage? I've never been in a raid where nobody got caught in fire, pulled aggro for a moment, lost aggro for a moment, or some other minor disaster. Even good players can get caught by surprise, and sometimes there are just random factors.
Post by
91278
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Post by
387103
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Post by
450879
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Post by
OscarDivine
Except that he assumed that all uses of the term "HPS" really mean "instantaneous HPS" (or perhaps "burst HPS").
For the purposes of many boss fights what is more important is "sustained HPS" (or "average HPS").
Now if you just replace the letters "HPS" with the word "healing" I think it would be just fine...
Anything PER SECOND defines a rate. Perhaps we need to discuss "acceleration" or HPS^2 ;-)
Post by
105534
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Post by
MegaVolt
Now if you just replace the letters "HPS" with the word "healing" I think it would be just fine...
Why should he replace those letters when they describe the situation perfectly?
HPS averaged over the whole fight will in the end result in an accurate measure of total healing done. Both expressions (average HPS over the fight and total healing done) mean exactly the same. Both are accurate and it is valid to use either.
On a sidenote: What Recount shows as HPS is actually not the averaged HPS over the whole fight. Recount calculates engagement time into its DPS and HPS numbers so that in Recount HPS and healing done are in fact different. But that's not a problem with the expression "HPS", it's just a Recount problem.
Post by
karlusdavius
ya, now its recounts fault. dear god shut up.
i officially abandon the term HPS in anything and everything. People have played and still play without even a notion of HPS. Therefore, its really not as important as you think. nor, does it matter. As long as you play your class to the best of your ability, you and your group/raid will be fine, regardless of HPS or having a notion of it.
Post by
ZoraLink
Now if you just replace the letters "HPS" with the word "healing" I think it would be just fine...
Why should he replace those letters when they describe the situation perfectly?
HPS averaged over the whole fight will in the end result in an accurate measure of total healing done. Both expressions (average HPS over the fight and total healing done) mean exactly the same. Both are accurate and it is valid to use either.
On a sidenote: What Recount shows as HPS is actually not the averaged HPS over the whole fight. Recount calculates engagement time into its DPS and HPS numbers so that in Recount HPS and healing done are in fact different. But that's not a problem with the expression "HPS", it's just a Recount problem.
Please refer to how this argument turned out to learn how to STFU. Please and thank you.
Post by
cloudp
Why should he replace those letters when they describe the situation perfectly?
HPS averaged over the whole fight will in the end result in an accurate measure of total healing done. Both expressions (average HPS over the fight and total healing done) mean exactly the same. Both are accurate and it is valid to use either.
On a sidenote: What Recount shows as HPS is actually not the averaged HPS over the whole fight. Recount calculates engagement time into its DPS and HPS numbers so that in Recount HPS and healing done are in fact different. But that's not a problem with the expression "HPS", it's just a Recount problem.
HPS averaged is on itself a redundance. Healing
per second
on
average
?
Acurate measure of total healing... The whole point of this thread is to awaken people to the "People are alive? GJ healers. Ignore meters." kind of mindset. Healing Per Second disregards every kind of organised assignements and specific fight mechanics. While on a fight 1500 HPS by the end may seem low, if that occured to a 2s cast direct damage spell on a cooldown of 20 seconds, followed by a potential killshot in a shorter cooldown if people weren't topped, you essentially have a 5-6s window to cast and a 14-15s deadzone. Your HPS will never take this into account. That means, though HPS is obviously an average of your total healings, it is hardly an average of what you did or a test to your capacities, and much less a test to your throughput.
Edit: Taking the brilliant analogy of Velocity, it's the same to say you came from A to B in 60Km/h., and you took 3 hours. That is undoubtedly 180 Km, but not all roads have the same speed limits, you had to deal with traffic. You may say Velocity on average (our "HPS"), but you just know you weren't on a constant speed and that you can reach your destination and say "Phew, there wasn't much traffic, i got along smoothly" or "The road was a nightmare, it took forever to reach here". Does 60Km/h tell us anything of interesting and specific about your trip?
Post by
MegaVolt
HPS averaged is on itself a redundance. Healing
per second
on
average
?
Acurate measure of total healing... The whole point of this thread is to awaken people to the "People are alive? GJ healers. Ignore meters." kind of mindset. Healing Per Second disregards every kind of organised assignements and specific fight mechanics. While on a fight 1500 HPS by the end may seem low, if that occured to a 2s cast direct damage spell on a cooldown of 20 seconds, followed by a potential killshot in a shorter cooldown if people weren't topped, you essentially have a 5-6s window to cast and a 14-15s deadzone. Your HPS will never take this into account. That means, though HPS is obviously an average of your total healings, it is hardly an average of what you did or a test to your capacities, and much less a test to your throughput.
Edit: Taking the brilliant analogy of Velocity, it's the same to say you came from A to B in 60Km/h., and you took 3 hours. That is undoubtedly 180 Km, but not all roads have the same speed limits, you had to deal with traffic. You may say Velocity on average (our "HPS"), but you just know you weren't on a constant speed and that you can reach your destination and say "Phew, there wasn't much traffic, i got along smoothly" or "The road was a nightmare, it took forever to reach here". Does 60Km/h tell us anything of interesting and specific about your trip?
Welcome to page one of this topic ;)
That's why we distinguish between fights with burst mechanics (and look at burst hps there, hps in the short timeframe after the burst) and fights with aura type mechanics (and look at hps over the whole fight which equals total healing done there).
For a fight that combines both mechanics we of course have to look at both.
ya, now its recounts fault. dear god shut up.
Thanks for calling me god. I really appreciate it and I think the term is appropriate.
But you shall not demand your god to shut up! My eternal wrath be upon you!
Nothing is Recounts fault. It's just that Recount doesn't show the total healing done divided by the duration of the fight as HPS. That's actually a good thing because if you want that number you get it by looking at the healing done chart. But that's something people should be aware of so I think it's justified to mention this here.
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