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Post by
morginar
Of course. Though what need was there for these characters?
Why Khadgar when Rommath? Why Veressa when Sylvanas? Why Velen when Liadrin? Why no Saurfang?
Id find Sylvanas having more to do than Veressa, given Varimathras and dreadlords have history with her. Veressa... Has only a tie with Alleria, and that's something both windrunners have.
It just seems to focus on alliance characters, intentionally or not.
And I'd guess it's not. The evil faction doesn't have much to offer, just raidbosses... And the good faction turn neutral, and make neutral look very alliance from it.
Post by
Adamsm
I know it's the comparison...but Khadgar because he's the closest thing to a Guardian now a days, so it makes sense to have one of the most powerful magi there. Velen because it's Argus, the homeworld of the Draenei so if he's not there, what in the hell is going on type thing.
I can see why Sylvanas isn't there, even though she's the leader of the Horde...because of what she attempted in Stormheim; no one would trust her after those actions outside of the Forsaken/some of the Horde.
Vereesa is there because Windrunner...that's pretty much it, and the Void Elf thing, cause...yeah, why not.
But it's my point about the writing; over all Legion has good idea but they aren't well executed. Look at the Order Halls; there's a lot of over lap in the quests for the Artifact weapons.
Post by
Rankkor
As for the body thing...The Avatar; we've known for centuries that the Titans can make new bodies for themselves.
Nope.
They can make bodies, but not for themselves. No body can hold their cosmic might except their own. That's the main reason that prevented Sargeras from simply making a new body for himself all these years and why he's been disembodied all this time.
Sargeras sent his Avatar to Azeroth after all, and that was able to implant a
portion
of Sargeras into Agewynn to create Medivh, even though at the time he was formless due to the whole revised War of the Ancient thing.
The Titans shared a
portion
of themselves into the Watchers during the empowering of the Flights and the war against the Old Ones, so splitting themselves isn't that unexpected.
Key word both times: Portion. They can put a small part of themselves into artificial creations, or even other people, but to actually possess someone was completely unheard of because again, no mortal body could hold the entirety of their cosmic might. This is why they were so insistent on getting Illidan's body, because apparently, his body, and ONLY his body could serve as a vessel for ALL of sargeras, rather than just a portion of him.
These are beings who are at least Creator level Gods; the fact that they are still alive even after 'dying' means that there is something to them that makes them truly immortal, which is why they have to be imprisoned or they'll come back...which you know, we know is possible since the Demons did it all of the time, and those who were corrupted into demons gained that nifty power too, so why wouldn't the good guys have something similar?
If this is the case, then why stay dead all this time? So sargeras soloed the pantheon and killed them all. Why wait up until right now to suddenly and abruptly come back?
As for the leaders who are there....to be fair, out of them, only two are Alliance; the other three are Army of Light/Argus faction aligned. Vereesa is there because Alleria, and Velen is there because Argus.
Not really. Lets not fool ourselves here, Turalyon, Alleria, and Arator are all alliance. No ifs, no buts. On BfA all pretenses are dropped and they straight up rejoin the alliance and wage war against the horde. Just because we're putting emnities aside and working together for a common goal doesn't mean they're neutral.
I worked with Tyrande for much of Val'shara, but I'm not considering her neutral for even a split fraction of a second.
That's like saying for Draenor because Khadgar and Yrel were there the final thing with Archimonde was Alliance centric.
Big difference because there, the horde had representation in the form of Durotan. And even before that, the horde had representation in the story on the other zones. Durotan, Draka, Thrall, Drek'thar, Lady Liandrin, all of these played very big roles in the whole story. Much like how from the alliance's perspective, they had Yrel, Maraad, Khadgar, Maladaar, Nobundo, Akama, and several others to bump elbows with.
But if you look at all the major lore figures we interact with in legion, excluding the order hall stuff, ALL leaders are alliance. All of them. Sylvanas shows up for a small chunk of Stormheim but that's it. Saurfang shows up for literally two minutes in the warrior intro, and Thrall for the first 10 minutes of the shaman campaign (and only if you go enhancement). Liandrin shows up only for the second half of the suramar storyline and then promptly vanishes from the story.
Running around Antorus, I was accompanied by almost a dozen alliance figures (Including but not limited: Turalyon, Alleria, Khadgar, Magni) but not a single horde character was there. Even some that really should have been, like Liandrin, or Aethas, etc.
Also notice how I never said that WoD was alliance-centric. That expansion had a lot of problems, but faction representation was not one of them. MoP was problematic in faction representation because while the first half provided good material to both sides, nobody can deny the second half was pretty much a horde story, with the alliance clumsily tacked on.
Legion however is even worse in that regard, because both the first and second half are both entirely centered around the alliance, with almost zero representation for the horde at all.
And before someone draws a comparison between me saying that Turalyon, Alleria, and the Army of Light are alliance for things they'll do in BfA, to then say that by that token the Highmountain and Suramar stories are the horde representation..... not the same. Turalyon and Alleria are characters with a long long story who have been in the game since before wow was born, and have a rich and expanded history with the alliance. Whereas the Highmountan and Nightborne were created entirely for this expansion, and in this expansion they're neutral. They'll be horde in the future, but they're neutral here. Turalyon and Alleria however are alliance, always have been alliance, and are still alliance now, even if for the time being they are willing to work with the horde momentarily.
And its not just argus, as Morgrinar said himself, on the Tomb of Sargeras, again the entire cast of NPCs accompanying us through the place is alliance. And the Emerald Nightmare was a wrapup for an alliance villain.
Come on, think of how EPIC would have been to have Sylvanas on Antorus for when we fight Varimathras. If there was anyone with an axe to grind against him it was her.
because of what she attempted in Stormheim; no one would trust her after those actions outside of the Forsaken/some of the Horde.
And this seriously grinds my gears.
Never would I believe it that the day would come that I'd have to defend Sylvanas of all people (When I so desperately wanted her out of the horde ever since she pulled that crap in cataclysm) but what is it with her demonization here?
She gets attacked unprovoked by a warmonger holding a grudge, and all of the sudden SHE's the monster? seriously?
So she attacked Skol Adil, big frigging WHAT? those are hostile Vrykul. The alliance attacked them too. Half the artifacts we wield were gleefully plundered by sacred Vrykul burial grounds, villages, temples, and such. Its starting to feel like any action she does, regardless of what it is, is ethically and morally wrong only when SHE does it. If anyone else does it, its perfectly okay.
Odyn asks us to kill some Vrykul? pfft,that's fine. Wardens ask us to slay some valkyrs? bring'em on. Sylvanas DARES to attack vrykuls? omg, the fiend, we must never trust her, she's a monster that needs to die in fire.
X_X
Not one apology for the unwarranted attack by the alliance in stormheim, by Prince Sissy Biever.. Even when they're the aggressors, we're the jerkwads.
I'm telling ya, its not fair.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
Odyn asks us to kill some Vrykul? pfft,that's fine. Wardens ask us to slay some valkyrs? bring'em on. Sylvanas DARES to
attack vrykuls
try and enslave their goddess with a lantern bargained from vyrkul satan in order to force her to turn more vyrkul into valkyrs, in order to raise more dead people as Forsaken
? omg, the fiend, we must never trust her, she's a monster that needs to die in fire.
Fixed that for you.
Post by
morginar
Come on, think of how EPIC would have been to have Sylvanas on Antorus for when we fight Varimathras. If there was anyone with an axe to grind against him it was her.
Or a fight with the nathrezim council from wc3, Balnazzar, Detheroc and Varimathras. Alongside Sylvanas and Lothraxion. For plot twist ending Varimathras is spared so we get more horde characters (possibly open a door or something as a gesture of goodwill)
Odyn asks us to kill some Vrykul? pfft,that's fine. Wardens ask us to slay some valkyrs? bring'em on. Sylvanas DARES to
attack vrykuls
try and enslave their goddess with a lantern bargained from vyrkul satan in order to force her to turn more vyrkul into valkyrs, in order to raise more dead people as Forsaken
? omg, the fiend, we must never trust her, she's a monster that needs to die in fire.
Fixed that for you.
And that's fair. (even though satan figures sometimes are more just than god, arakkoa, light/void and even helya in chronicle)
Though the demonization (more common in other forums of wow lore with less respect than here) is that anything she does is for selfish and wickedly reasons. With the lamp it's on the lines of immortality. And Greymane get's whitewashed in turn. That he knew beforehand and was doing it all to be a god dog. (usually with linking the azsuna quest both sides get and the zones are non-linear...) Even though he states he doesn't know what she is up for and is only out for vengeance.
Even Vol'jin's death get the same treatment, Sylvanas was pulling a dragon age retreat and the horde could totes do eet. And sylvanas was behind the poison (somehow) and tricked the loa (that she curse in the book becouse of) to make her warchief.
The data mines have the same pattern on such forums. She is a evil witch of wickedness and some such.I know it's the comparison...but Khadgar because he's the closest thing to a Guardian now a days, so it makes sense to have one of the most powerful magi there. Velen because it's Argus, the homeworld of the Draenei so if he's not there, what in the hell is going on type thing.
I can see why Sylvanas isn't there, even though she's the leader of the Horde...because of what she attempted in Stormheim; no one would trust her after those actions outside of the Forsaken/some of the Horde.
Vereesa is there because Windrunner...that's pretty much it, and the Void Elf thing, cause...yeah, why not.
But it's my point about the writing; over all Legion has good idea but they aren't well executed. Look at the Order Halls; there's a lot of over lap in the quests for the Artifact weapons.
I can understand the choices, hence I think it's unintentional neglect. Meryl could take the roll of Khadgar as he is original tirisgarde and has meet Aegwynn. Khadgar doesn't have much guardian specific stuff in tombs (ghost lady takes that role, I don't complain about her) any mage that can portal could have taken the role. Rommath could deliver some lines to dying kil'j. Something about the suffering of belves or 2.4 stuff.
In my opinion, that makes her more fit. A lack of trust gives more story. A bit of drama and conflict.
And yea. I agree. Good idea. And even the order halls where mostly good. A minority did overlap and that made it a bit bland. But some where quite gems in uniqueness. Assassin rogue for example. The outlaw hidden appearance was also such a gem.
Post by
Adamsm
That's one of my issues with the Order Halls; because the Player is the 'leader' that means the champions sit around with their thumbs up their asses and do absolutely nothing in the world at large(the missions we send them on are never expanded on so we don't learn what they were doing). They should be out there waging war against the Demons; we should see people like Saurfang and Thrall fighting across the fronts...and we don't because Blizzard didn't want to spend the extra time doing so. They wanted a set of heroes finishing a storyline, so they picked the ones who from Warcraft 2 and 3 that had the most interaction with the demons. Yes it would have been better to have more, but then again, it seems like Blizzard doesn't care for their stories if some are left out...well, until BfA where they are making faction content a thing again and even that seems heavy handed and mehish.
Yes Graymane pushed the war, and yes he's doing it because, big surprise, the woman who destroyed his kingdom and killed his son was running around in Stormheim. Genn is an idiot for focusing on that over everything else. But at the same time: Sylvanas was attempting to forcibly take control of the entire Val'kyr race with that Lantern...you know, the same woman who has gone on and on about her people will never be slaves, decides she's going to make a race a slave. That's suppose to be excusable? Seriously, players talk about double standard, but this is one of the worse that came out of Legion with so many people excusing this.
As for the Titans/Sargeras; it's Warcraft, so nothing is set in stone and can change at any time imaginable with hand waves to previous things that just sorta of happened. Probably in the volume of the Chronicles that handles Legion, we'll get the full explanation on what mystical thing Sargeras did to re-embody everyone including himself, setting up the newest ret-con goodness.
Post by
Rankkor
Odyn asks us to kill some Vrykul? pfft,that's fine. Wardens ask us to slay some valkyrs? bring'em on. Sylvanas DARES to
attack vrykuls
try and enslave their goddess with a lantern bargained from vyrkul satan in order to force her to turn more vyrkul into valkyrs, in order to raise more dead people as Forsaken
? omg, the fiend, we must never trust her, she's a monster that needs to die in fire.
Fixed that for you.
At the time, they didn't know that. The attack was unprovoked. Its not like she was attacking alliance forces. And calling Helya "Vrykul Satan" is a stretch. Odyn is a WAY bigger A-hole than her, and basically pushed her into her role. Yes, she does horrible things, but he's every bit as bad as she is, and god-dammit why couldn't we kill him as well? >_>
That he's such a massive jerkwad yet in the end gets away with everything and gets everything he wanted, is one of the few bits of story that left a sour taste in my mouth.
To quote Yhatzee from Zero Punctuation: "If you're in the planet of the a-holes, in which one are you supposed to take shelter during a fart storm?". The whole conflict of Helya vs Odyn wasn't a case of white vs black, at the very best it was gray vs gray.
Besides, Adamsm said "after what she did in stormheim nobody would trust her ". Who is this "Nobody" because other than MAYBE Odyn and his forces, she never attacked anyone else, and the alliance attacked Odyn's forces too, so they're not 100% spotless either (Even if they weren't trying to enslave Eyir). So what reasons has she given the alliance to not trust her? They're the ones who attacked her first. And unprovoked I must repeat for the 10th time.
Post by
Adamsm
You just said it though; she was trying to enslave a race. Who in their right mind would trust someone who's shown herself willing to do that, especially if you are on the Alliance side and you know that when you human allies go down, Sylvanas could in theory rez them right back up as loyal Forsaken soldiers, and the fact that she was trying to expand the number of Valks under her control wouldn't sit well with the Alliance.
Post by
oneforthemoney
At the time, they didn't know that. The attack was unprovoked. Its not like she was attacking alliance forces. And calling Helya "Vrykul Satan" is a stretch. Odyn is a WAY bigger A-hole than her, and basically pushed her into her role. Yes, she does horrible things, but he's every bit as bad as she is, and god-dammit why couldn't we kill him as well? >_>
I'm not disagreeing with that. I think Stormheim did very well to show that the Alliance is not all hugs and kisses. There are people with serious chips on their shoulders involved with them, and Greymane has a major one.
I'm not so sure about not knowing about what she was trying to do later though. Greymane's words at the end of the cinematic when he smashed the lantern seemed to imply he knew what she was trying to do at that point. Hardly excuses attacking the fleet though.
As for Helya and Odyn, Odyn is indeed a ^&*!. But it's more an example of Blizz's failure to write a compelling villainous woman's narrative. Seriously. Every evil female in their rosters was turned to it by some outside force. Sylvanas, Kerrigan, Widowmaker, and now Helya. They were all forcefully transformed into what they are.
That said, doesn't really excuse Helya for stealing people's souls. At least, the ones who aren't vyrkul.
Post by
morginar
I'm not so sure about not knowing about what she was trying to do later though. Greymane's words at the end of the cinematic when he smashed the lantern seemed to imply he knew what she was trying to do at that point. Hardly excuses attacking the fleet though.
Thing is, in the quests before. He outright state that he doesn't know. And immortality is just as guess on his part. As the valk was for the forsaken, not sylvanas.
He does make his motivation clear though, vengeance because son and home and broken shore (how dare you use tactical retreat when it's valid and not die like dogs?)
Post by
Rankkor
You just said it though; she was trying to enslave a race. Who in their right mind would trust someone who's shown herself willing to do that
A race that the alliance itself had no problem attacking as well. Again, how does this demonstrates untrustworthiness? You don't trust someone when they go back on their word, when they betray pacts formed. She compromised the bulk of the horde forces to fighting the legion, and left her pursuit of getting new valkyr as a personal errand that she ran herself with a personal cadre of her closest forces because she knew that the priority was beating the legion.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Truthfully, Stormheim holds another treasure.
One that I will be pursuing by my own means.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I trust you are more than capable of handling whatever trials stand between you and the Aegis.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: When you set foot in Stormheim,
you shall have the full power of the Forsaken at your back.
She only asks the player for help with her personal matter AFTER she was forced into it by the alliance wrecking most of her forces. But up until that time, her priorities were clear: Beat Legion > Personal Errand.
Meanwhile, Greymane flat out disobeyed direct orders from his king (Who explicitly told him NOT to attack unless in self-defense) then lied about it ("We were on a scouting mission" my ass) and diverted the bulk of the alliance forces in the area to pursue a personal grudge, jeopardizing the main objective of the alliance in the broken isles, namely the defeat of the legion, because as far as he's concerned, the whole world can burn so long as he gets what he wants.
Which one of these two sounds more untrustworthy to you?
I'm not so sure about not knowing about what she was trying to do later though. Greymane's words at the end of the cinematic when he smashed the lantern seemed to imply he knew what she was trying to do at that point.
I'm talking about the initial attack. His orders were to escort the alliance heroes to stormheim and help secure one of the pillars of creation. You know, fighting the legion? saving the world? things that take priority over a personal grudge? Instead, not even five seconds after arriving on stormheim, he attacked the horde. Because, screw the world, vengeance takes priority.
He didn't know what she came to do in stormheim until later, and frankly, he didn't even cared. As soon as he saw her, he opened fire. Whatever her motivations, they served only as a convenient excuse for him to try to justify his actions later. She could as well be there picking flowers and it wouldn't have made a single difference, he would have shot her anyways, and rather than take a personal cadre of his own forces to pursue his own personal errand, he instead compromised every single alliance force in stormheim, including the flagship of the alliance.
Which is why I don't get how come SYLVANAS is the one ending up painted as the untrustworthy jerkwad here.
As for Helya and Odyn, Odyn is indeed a ^&*!. But it's more an example of Blizz's failure to write a compelling villainous woman's narrative. Seriously.
No kidding. I want to add one to that list too. Cordana. Think of the wasted potential. A warden willingly betraying her comrades to the legion. Instead, they went with the laziest plot device of all times. She's mind-controlled. Gul'dan just mind-controlled her, and she stayed that way.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Which is why I don't get how come SYLVANAS is the one ending up painted as the untrustworthy jerkwad here.
Probably because she still is. It doesn't excuse Greymane, but likewise, his actions don't validate hers. They were both wrong, but Greymane happened to be right for the wrong reason.
No kidding. I want to add one to that list too. Cordana. Think of the wasted potential. A warden willingly betraying her comrades to the legion. Instead, they went with the laziest plot device of all times. She's mind-controlled. Gul'dan just mind-controlled her, and she stayed that way.
Yeah. Which was a real shame because Khadgar and Gul'dan's story was pretty much the only compelling bit in Warlords. God knows the Iron Horde weren't much of a threat...
Another thing I really liked about Legion was how Elisande broke that mold. Yes, she was a villain, but she actually had a good reason for what she did. She screwed it up mind you, but she wasn't 'LoL evil!' like all the others, or controlled or corrupted.
Post by
morginar
Whispers from the Dark
Excellent. The puzzle is finally coming together.
We may not know why Sylvanas' forces are here, but I think we know where they are.
Shielded Secrets
It's obvious at this point that the Horde wants something in Skold-Ashil. Unfortunately we still don't know what they're after. We think the secret lies with the shieldmaidens here, so we need to find out more about them. Some early scouting revealed that they have a method of carving their shields to tell their stories. Go into the city and find as many of these shields as you can. With luck, we will find what Sylvanas seeks.
end quotes
He doesn't know what Sylavans wants, his motivations are not benevolent. His assertion of immortality is one he makes himself there. Because he can only see her as such. It is far more important what he shouts about himself there. "For king, country and son." and "I took your future." That is his motivation. And king, is part of his wrapped sense of reality. Just as immortality for sylvanas. (she already is immortal... Double immortality?)
Post by
Rankkor
Probably because she still is.
But why? What has she done to be deemed untrustworthy? Has she attacked the alliance unprovoked? Has she broken her word? betrayed her allies? The most one can say about her is that IN THE PAST she's done some truly awful stuff, but those were in a war that is now over and put behind us while we dealt with the legion.
How does her actions in Stormheim show her as untrustworthy to the army of light? or indeed anyone else? Because she tried to capture Eyir? Yeah, prick move, but its not like both the alliance and the horde weren't attacking the vrykul anyhows. By design mind you. Part of Odyn's tests wer about killing quite a few of his people, not just the one clan that sold out to the legion. Hers is just another drop in the bucket. Even Odyn sends us to flat out kill his own people long after we've passed all his trials, and he's their main god. That's just how their culture works.
As an aside, this is an offtopic note, but I am wondering just how canon are the alliance and horde death knights.
Because if you think about it, Death Knights have everything she wants. They can raise sapient undead, and not just humans, any race really, and they also have access to Valkyrs as well. Maybe that's why she was holding onto Koltiras, maybe she thought she could extract out of him the secrets behind the Death Knight's powers for herself.
Post by
morginar
I think sylvanas just forgot about kolitra.
Otherwise why would the ebon blade be welcome in horde cities?
I think it's because of the secret amnesia plague the ebon blade has, otherwise they would be hated after lights hope and the mount questline.
Post by
Rankkor
This makes me happy
The Kor'kron used to be a multi-racial tip of the spear elite organization of the horde, before garrosh happened and he turned them into an orc-only band of disposable cannon fodder to serve as state police.
Never thought I'd say the words myself, but Sylvanas really did good this time. By reviving the kor'kron once again as a multi-racial group to serve as the tip of the horde's spear.
Post by
morginar
I disagree. I think the kor'kron and the seventh legion are bad ideas. Because it nulls racial distinctions and puts a bunch of races orc/human armor and themes. I'm sure we can remember how annoying it was to see night elves in stormwind armor.
Don't want the same for the horde.
As you can see nightborne, pandaren undead etc, in orc armor. Where is my duskwatch shal'dorei?
Edit. Not saying it's bad that we see the races work together, but they shouldn't be treated as borg drones, they should have distinctiveness. Like in armor, themes and tactics.
Post by
Rankkor
I disagree. I think the kor'kron and the seventh legion are bad ideas. Because it nulls racial distinctions and puts a bunch of races orc/human armor and themes. I'm sure we can remember how annoying it was to see night elves in stormwind armor.
that's more the fault of not having an actual uniform for the 7th legion, than anything else though. That and overusing it.
I think we can all agree that the Kor'kron and the 7th Legion worked better as a concept when they were sporadically used. That's the idea of elite special forces. You don't just use them everywhere, but rather where it actually counts. Makes them more special and meaningful. The moment you start flooding every zone with them, they go from elite special forces, to......... well........... what the kor'kron became during the Battlefield: Barrens event and SoO. Simple generic mooks.
The 7th Legion and Kor'kron are good ideas, so long as they fulfill both of these conditions:
1: they need their own unique distinctive uniform. Not simply recycling the racial uniform of stormwind or orgrimmar. At least the Kor'kron have their own tabard, which is a start, but they really need their own brand of unique armor too. And while its hard to do from an artistic point of view, it would be nice if this unique uniform incorporated elements from each race into the design, as opposed to just being human or orcish armor.
2: And this is the most important part: they need to be used sparingly and must not eclipse the normal armies of the races.The 7th Legion must not act as a substitute for the Sentinels, Ironforge Mountaneers, Vindicators/Anchorites, etc. And the Kor'kron must not be a replacement for the Darkspear Headhunters, Silvermoon Blood Knights/Farstriders, Undercity Dreadstalkers, etc.
The other armies must be used as the standard guards in villages and bases, and be used for normal stuff, and reserve the elites for tackling on the hardest parts of the story.
So long as both of these are met, the 7th Legion and the Kor'kron can work as a concept.
Post by
morginar
And that's not something I trust blizzard to do.
As for the idea of armor, perhaps four sets? cloth, leather, mail and plate? And also they have a full set of weapons. I noticed for example, all use axes in that pic. Maybe have them in their heritage armor, should such be made (and kor'kron more a tabard and guildtag)
Post by
Adamsm
Feels like more recycling...except this time, to go with the 'Battle' theme of Azeroth, they are doing a throwback to Warcraft 2; hell, that's what the main
image
with the Orc vs Human seems like. So rather then going for more diversity, actually having the armed forces of both armies in actual racial costumes, it's like Blizzard is thinking 'nah, just stuff in them the regular stuff and leave it as is'.
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