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Post by
Rankkor
Which make no sense lol, since Thrall is younger then Garrosh :P
Age has nothing to do with it man, we seek the approval of the people we respect, regardless of whether they're older or younger than us.
Basic human psyche. You respect someone = You want that someone to also approve of you, respect you, love you, and be proud of what you've become.
You know, that entire fight scene reminds me A LOT of the fight between Tai Lung and Master Shifu on Kung Fu Panda (As seen
here
). Almost word by word :P
Post by
cephadex
but let's face it. That was not Blizzard's intention when they made Garrosh enemy #1. Like many other things in WoD, its a bit of a painful retcon.
This is what I was thinking.
Age has nothing to do with it man, we seek the approval of the people we respect, regardless of whether they're older or younger than us.
You're right, but you said
paternal figure
-- and I think that's more than just looking up to and respecting someone/wanting their approval. It almost implies Garrosh was deprived of admiration he might have had for a mentor specifically in his early years. And I agree that oddly you do get that sort of vibe from the cinematic.
I'm really sorry to keep picking on the Lords of War/Maraad issue, but think of what motivation Bliz would have to make these episodes: they're introducing an expansion centered largely on orcs, where they know most players don't know details of orc lore. To most people, you just have "orcs" as one group.
Bliz is probably aware players would complain it would be boring to have just orcs everywhere and not that many other races, so they probably want them to recognize there are different clans with different identities and stories, they want to make it flavorful and interesting. They want to bring out the aspects of orc lore and culture that are cool and exciting, and also to placate those players who have complained for years (and especially in MoP) that the game had strayed far from the themes it was originally about.
Looking at it this way, they're telling these stories to familiarize your average player with the major important figures in orc lore, while admirably attempting to make alliance players whine less than usual by including Varian and Maraad at the openings. What your average player will take home from this is that
this is the orc lore
; most players will not even be aware there's more than one version.
I think that even in the episodes where there are differences from the original, they aren't huge like some of the ones you encounter in-game (Orgrimm...) The biggest difference was shown very clearly in the trailer; I'm guessing Bliz just wants people to accept this as
the lore
. I'm sorry to keep on this, but doesn't feel like it's Maraad after he came back from alt Draenor, it feels like Maraad is telling old, "long ago" tales of how things once were. If he'd recently returned from alt Draenor, he'd probably be noticeably marveling to himself about the differences compared with what he remembers.
As for the Talador finale, I hope in real life in the military women doll themselves up with lipstick and plucked eyebrows too before going off to battle. You know, the battlefield is basically one big nightclub.
The Nagrand finale wasn't cool. No, it
wasn't
Thrall who made Garrosh what he is, it was Blizzard, and I never liked how they went about it; of course they'd have Thrall win.
Post by
Rankkor
Age has nothing to do with it man, we seek the approval of the people we respect, regardless of whether they're older or younger than us.
You're right, but you said
paternal figure
So? It still stands. Paternal Figure isn't a synonym with Father you know? Its just that, a figure we admire, and wish to emulate and wish to earn their respect. Everyone has a figure that we project ourselves onto, and in most cases, its our parents. When those are not around, we choose someone else, and while again, it usually is someone older than us, its not necessarily the case all the time. Thrall may have been younger than Garrosh, but he has accomplished more in his first 25 years, than garrosh did in his entire life before Thrall placed him as Overlord of the Warsong Offensive.
-- and I think that's more than just looking up to and respecting someone/wanting their approval. It almost implies Garrosh was deprived of admiration he might have had for a mentor specifically in his early years.
And he was. He grew up under the stigma that his father led to the downfall of the orc race, then was uplifted by Thrall who showed how Grom also saved the orcs. This is why Garrosh projected onto Thrall rather than the Greatmother.
As for the Talador finale, I hope in real life in the military women doll themselves up with lipstick and plucked eyebrows too before going off to battle. You know, the battlefield is basically one big nightclub.
Be fair: First off, Yrel doesn't have eyelashes which is what I take it you meant (You don't really pluck eyebrows). And Secondly, she's not wearing lipstick, her lips are naturally of that color. Its the same way for all draenei females, and night elves.
The Nagrand finale wasn't cool. No, it
wasn't
Thrall who made Garrosh what he is, it was Blizzard, and I never liked how they went about it;
of course they'd have Thrall win.
Well, let me ask you one sincere question: How else did you expected that little brawl to end? One warrior, vs a Shaman that has control over the very elements themselves? Come on, the outcome was practically decided before the fight even began. In SoO garrosh had the upper hand due to the Heart of the old god giving him power, but without that, he's not really that skilled as a warrior.
Practically everyone who's ever fought against garrosh has landed him squarely on his ass. He fought against Cairne and was getting his ass wiped until he managed to get a lucky scratch on Cairne's chest, which since his axe was poisoned by Magatha, finished off the old bull, but without that he would had died.
He got disarmed of Gorehowl, and kicked once more by Varian on Ashenvale in the Wolfheart novel.
He got his ass kicked by Thrall during their duel before WOTLK (The ingame version has garrosh gaining the upper hand, but the comic version, which is really the one I see as canon, has Thrall facing garrosh evenly without magic, then the scourge came, and BOOM, he swats him down effortlessly like a fly)
The only fights Garrosh has ever won, was when he had an unfair advantage over their opponents.
He won against Taran Zhu because the panda was heavily wounded following his battle against Shen Bu.
He won against Cairne (barely) because his axe was poisoned.
He won against Thrall in SoO because he stripped Thrall of his powers, and then used powers of his own thanks to the Old Gods.
But when fought on even grounds, with no BS advantages? Garrosh is always on the receiving end of an ass kicking. So why would you expect that duel to end in any other way? Only if garrosh had secured a suite of Power Armor like Blackhand did, or a machine-gun or something could he tip the odds back in his favor, but a pure brawl against a shaman when you have no powers of your own is little more than suicide.
And that cinematic was
extremely
cool for me. I am so glad I wont have to deal with Garrosh or his antics, or have to clean up his messes, ever again. I've had to endure that diseased piece of rat rectum for the past
seven years
. Enough is enough.
Ohh and his line of "You made me what I am" is also complete BS.
Thrall was never an overbearing, controlling, strict, or manipulative mentor. He took garrosh under his wing, gave him command over his armies, and then gave him complete carte blanche to do as he pleased, NOT ONCE overriding his authority, or undermining his command. He expressed his disapproval, but overall gave him freedom to do as he pleased.
Even after appointing him as Warchief, he allowed Garrosh to rule the horde as he saw fit, and not once tried to impose himself, his wishes, or his morals onto Garrosh. He gave Garrosh full freedom to be the orc he wanted to be. And it was Garrosh himself who chose his own path. He chose every single one of the horrible deeds that led to his downfall.
And at the end, as usual when things don't go his way, he lays blame for all his failures onto anyone, other than himself. He refused to see that his "True Horde" was broken the moment he alienated his own allies (Nobody did it for him, he did that all by his lonesome). He refused to see or acknowledge that he tried to bring an even worse form of enslavement over his own people than the legion. Old Gods, for crying out loud.
I'm
soooo
glad he's gone, and if blizzard ever even considers bringing him back, I honestly think that's gonna be the one straw that breaks the camel's back for me. I want a warcraft story free of that cancer.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually...It's not: Had Thrall never shown Garrosh the defeat of Mannoroth and the redemption of Grom, then Garrosh would not have been inspired to reach his father's heights. Had Thrall not been so focused on 'peace' and acting the complete opposite of how an orc should be(to Garrosh's view since Garrosh grew up as regular orc) Garrosh never would have worked so hard to remove the 'weakness' of the orcs under Thrall that he saw. So yes, Thrall did shape Garrosh into what he is today, but it's more of a taunt then anything else.
Post by
Rankkor
Meh, I disagree. If Gandalf hadn't taken Bilbo with him on "The Hobbit" he would had been a completely different person. But would you go as far as saying that Gandalf "molded" bilbo into who he is? Nope. Bilbo was his own person during the entire journey, all his decisions, he made them himself, and at many points he had the opportunity to turn back, to just go home, and forget this adventuring nonsense. But he didn't. He
chose
his path. And those choices led to who he is. He was never forced to do anything he didn't wanted to.
Same goes for Thrall. He freed Garrosh from his depression, but then gave him total freedom to do whatever he wanted, and not once stood in his way. Garrosh himself made all the choices that led to who he is today. Not one of them was forced on him by Thrall.
To say "I did this, because you did that" is nothing more than a cop out. An excuse.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
See now you can't say that; Thrall is who he is because of the people who influenced him...such as Blackmoore. While Garrosh went 'evil', he did so because of what Thrall had done: His entire 'True' Horde stance is that Thrall screwed up and was dragging the orcs away from their past and honour. Yes, Thrall is responsible for Garrosh and as you said, he just stood by and did nothing until the very end. But even if he had stepped in sooner, it would have just made Garrosh more certain that of his stance.
Post by
Rankkor
See now you can't say that; Thrall is who he is because of the people who influenced him...such as Blackmoore.
Not the same, because Blackmoore literally shaped Thrall into who he was. He never gave Thrall a choice, he never gave thrall a say in the matter. He said "Study strategy" and thrall did. He said "become a warrior" and Thrall obeyed. Because disobedience was not an option.
You're comparing oranges to apples bro'.
Thrall never applied Blackmoore's approach to his mentoring of garrosh, he allowed garrosh to do whatever he wanted to, and it was garrosh himself who picked his course of action every single time.
If I give you a set of Kitchen Knives as a birthday present, so you can prepare better meals, and then you go and use one to murder 20 people, is it really "my" fault? I just gave them to you, but it was you, who chose to use them for something bad. I never forced you to do it, nor did I manipulated you into it. I just put it in your hands as a gift, and you made the choice to put them to use.
Yes, Thrall is responsible for Garrosh and as you said, he just stood by and did nothing until the very end.
In that regard, its true that Thrall is responsible for Garrosh's actions, and why he felt it was his duty to correct his mistake. But it was
because
he did nothing, that garrosh can't use as an excuse "you made me what I am". Thrall did nothing, so it was garrosh himself who made him what he became.
If Thrall had been a tyrannical and controlling master like Blackmoore was, and enforced his will onto garrosh at every point, one could very well make the accurate assessment that Thrall made Garrosh into what he is, the same way you can say that if I torture a guy for 20 years and then set him free and he murders a lot of people, it was me, who made him that way. But if I just gave him a gift, and it was him who made the choice to misuse my gift for evil, how exactly it was me who made him like that? I may be partly responsible for his actions, since I facilitated the tools he used, but I never "made him that way".
come on man that doesn't make sense.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Alright, let's try this a different way.
Garrosh sees the ultimate example of Might is Right as his father destroys Mannoroth. Now, rather then tell him what Grom's might got him, Thrall allows Garrosh to believe that. Thrall then puts Garrosh into a position of power of Northrend, where he has success and ends up a hero to the new generation of orcs...and Thrall gives him his father's weapon and the position of Warchief. Thrall leaves and seems to not care at all what Garrosh does as Garrosh creates a Horde based on the Strength is all and honour is the most important thing...but only in regards to the orcs.
Had Thrall taken the time to actually be a true authority figure to Garrosh it wouldn't have happened: The fact that Thrall stood aside and did nothing as Garrosh committed atrocity after atrocity more or less showed that Garrosh stance is right.
Thrall let the monster out of the bottle; had he manned up at least once and slapped Garrosh down multiple times, he may not have turned out to be such a massive pain in the ass...but he didn't; Thrall failed miserably. He created the Garrosh we know and loathe(well some of us), so Garrosh is correct, Thrall made him into what he is because he never did anything to try to stop it until it was too late.
Post by
Rankkor
Alright, let's try this a different way.
Garrosh sees the ultimate example of Might is Right as his father destroys Mannoroth. Now, rather then tell him what Grom's might got him, Thrall allows Garrosh to believe that. Thrall then puts Garrosh into a position of power of Northrend, where he has success and ends up a hero to the new generation of orcs...and Thrall gives him his father's weapon and the position of Warchief. Thrall leaves and seems to not care at all what Garrosh does as Garrosh creates a Horde based on the Strength is all and honour is the most important thing...but only in regards to the orcs.
Had Thrall taken the time to actually be a true authority figure to Garrosh it wouldn't have happened: The fact that Thrall stood aside and did nothing as Garrosh committed atrocity after atrocity more or less showed that Garrosh stance is right.
I think you're mixing concepts here.
I'm not implying that Thrall is blameless for what happened. He isn't. This entire mess with Garrosh is
totally
his fault. His alone. He put him in a position of power, and when he saw the horrible things garrosh was doing, he chose to not intervene. He was so blinded by his respect of Grom that he failed to see that Garrosh is
nothing
like his father, and when his bad action started to pile on top of each other, he still continued doing nothing to stop him. So this entire mess is his fault, I'm not arguing that.
But what garrosh became, was a creation of Gary himself.
That's the point I'm trying to debate here. Being responsible for his actions, and actively shaping him towards evil are two completely different things.
had he manned up at least once and slapped Garrosh down multiple times, he may not have turned out to be such a massive pain in the ass
If that had happened, THEN you can say that Thrall made Garrosh into who he is, Because in this scenario, Thrall would had actually intervened, and shape garrosh into a more positive direction. He would had done
something
. By doing "something" he is actively taking a stance in shaping Garrosh as a person.
By doing "nothing" all the shaping is being done by Garrosh himself.
So while Thrall is responsible for how things turned out, he didn't "made garrosh that way". Gary himself did that.
He created the Garrosh we know and loathe(well some of us), so Garrosh is correct, Thrall made him into what he is because he never did anything to try to stop it until it was too late.
Incorrect. Thrall did nothing to stop it until it was too late, but what happened was by Garrosh's own choosing. It wasn't enemies, it wasn't even old gods, or legion, or scourge that shaped garrosh into what he became. He did all of that himself. Thrall did nothing to steer him into a better direction, but that doesn't mean Thrall led Garrosh into the path of the warmongering criminal.
That's as silly as saying that because we did nothing to stop Pinochet from doing the things he did, we "made him". No, if we had the position to stop him, and did nothing, then we're partly responsible for all his horrible actions, but we didn't "made him", that part came from an entirely different source.
Post by
Adamsm
/sigh
Okay, one more try: Thrall made the current Garrosh because of his actions...or lack of them. Garrosh modeled his Horde on the old ways as a way to show how weak Thrall's Horde(at least the orcs) were. Thrall is one the main influences on Garrosh's stance and helped to shape and mold his thoughts and beliefs in making the True Horde superior in every way shape and form compared to Thrall's. So, Garrosh is correct in what he says; without Thrall, he would not have turned out the way he did.
Post by
Rankkor
Meh, I've stated three times now why I disagree. To do so again would be going in circles.
Post by
oneforthemoney
The thing about Garrosh is that it's actually rather hard to get a good grip on his character because we have so many conflicting and glossed over aspects of him. We have Garrosh in the books and Garrosh in the games, what we are told he did and didn't do, what we've seen him do, but then you get into the conflicting areas of what is canon between games and books. In game we see him punch a dragon and doom his own fleet, in game we are also told he masterminded the Horde offensive in Northrend, in the books we are told about his duel with Cairne and later see him in War Crimes seemingly certain his escape is already masterminded.
Garrosh is...just a mess, really.
Post by
Rankkor
Garrosh is...just a mess, really.
Which is why I'm so glad he's removed from the game. He's a cancer to the story, and I hope they never bring him back again.
Varian suffered from the same syndrome (Inconsistent characterization) but thankfully he's gotten a bit better.
Post by
oneforthemoney
The worst part about him was that you got a feeling Blizzard was trying to do
something
with Garrosh, but they either didn't know precisely what and blindly flailed about until it was too late, or they weren't sure how to do it, so we have the mess we ended up with.
Post by
Rankkor
I got the feeling like they were just tossing darts blindly at the wall and see what sticks and what didn't. Which is why he suddenly is all noble and honorable in Stonetalon, but then has absolutely no problem in doing StonetalonX10 on Theramoore.
Eventually they just saw that he was a a lost cause that nobody would ever like, and decided to throw him face first to the villain ball in MoP in the most over-the-top way possible.
In War Crimes the only thing missing about him is the mustache-twirling and the machiavellic laugh.
Post by
Adamsm
In War Crimes the only thing missing about him is the mustache-twirling and the machiavellic laugh.
He's still the most enjoyable thing in that book though.
Post by
Adamsm
Anyways, walking away from Garrosh.
I like the new Eastern Kingdom's loading screen...but I find it amusing that Genn is shown in his bad ass grandpa human form rather then his worgen one; wonder what the reasoning behind that was.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Probably so people would recognize him more easily. Not many know what he looks like in worgen form, which is really a bit of an oversight on Blizz's part. Genn needs more screen time.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I just find it funny how Gazlowe looks nothing like he does in Heroes of the Storm. It's like they forget somewhere or something.
Don't you mean Gallywix? Gazlowe is the architect hired to build orgrimmar.
Horde-side there's a lot of mistakes.
For starters there's Gallywix, who not only is still nowhere in the world (Seriously how hard could it be to just add him on his mansion in Azshara? seriously?) but also doesn't have a unique model to reflect how he really looks (AKA: fat)
But the most glaring one is that on the loading screen for Kalimdor, representing the orcs is Thrall, even though Kosak has blatantly stated that Thrall
is not
the leader of the orcs. So who is? and why isn't that person whoever it is, on the loading screen?
They vaguely hinted at Saurfang or Eitrigg being the new Orc Leader, which makes absolutely no sense. Both are too old, and secondly, both are just soldiers, they have no experience in politics, or diplomatic leadership. Furthermore, neither have children of their own (Eitrigg has one, but he dies on the Tanaan Intro)
Just give in, and say Thrall is the new Orc Chieftain and problem solved. But
noooooooo
they just have to be stubborn.
And this looks frikking badass. Why can't we actually have armor like this in the game? As much as I dislike "armorkini" sets, this one specifically (combined with the weapons) just looks amazing.
(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
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