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Post by
Monday
Doomhammer is on the same level as Arthas in all honestly.
Aka a villain.
Actually....not completely: He was part of the Dark Horde, but then again, you cannot name someone from the Dark Horde who didn't kill Draenei, even Durotan and the Frostwolves fell for the Legion trick.
Also, I hate to be the one that Godwins this thread, but that's what the Reserve Police Battalion 101 of Hamburg, Germany said when they were ordered to massacre the Jewish population. You know what happened to their leader, Major Wilhelm Trapp?
He was executed as a war criminal. Funny, that.
As of Dawn of the Aspects, we know he's still alive in some way, since Thrall sensed a massive power stirring in Dun Morogh, and it was in a protective way. At some point, we'll probably end up seeing him back and free of the Curse of the Mountain.
though supposedly his spirit may be hanging around Ironforge.
Edit: Also, I'd like to preface my posts, now that I think about it. I sound a lot more angry than I actually am. I kinda debate everyone the same way, so I'm not mad at you guys or anything.
Post by
Adamsm
As I said, I see Doomhammer as an Anti-Hero; out of all of the Dark Horde, he's the only one who tried his best with what was he was given to keep his people alive.
The point though, is that all of the Dark Horde are 'war criminals' for fighting that war. That includes people such as the Saurfang brothers, Grom, Tirion's good friend Etrigg, and many others.
And that wouldn't leave out the soldiers of Lordaeron who went along with Arthas purge of Stratholme as well.
Post by
Rankkor
Because they started the first 3 games as villains
And when the horde was no longer a villain faction, they died, rather than be redeemed. See what I'm telling you? Old Iconic figures = Dead.
Old Iconic Figures for alliance = most are actually alive. Sure SOME of them are no longer alliance, but they're alive.
Turalyon and Alleria are gone and have been missing for almost 20 years now (IRL time. Beyond the Dark Portal was released in 1996). I count them as gone, and therefore no longer relevant.
Different points of view. Where you count them as "gone" (which would imply they will never ever ever EVER have anything to do with the game EVER again, which is what a DEAD figure usually does) I count them as "waiting to be added". Its undeniable that they'll be back one way or another. And because they have the potential to come back, they are in a better spot than the iconic horde figures that we KNOW are NEVER gonna come back, and in the unlikely case they do, its only so we can kill them again.
So I ask you, what do you think is more irritating? have a favorite character waiting to make an appearance later on? or have a favorite character GONE FOREVER with the caveat that in the unlikely case he does come back its only so we can re-kill them again.
Come on man =(
Magni was turned to stone. He is no longer around to do anything, though supposedly his spirit may be hanging around Ironforge. Either way, his body is physically dead and he doesn't interact with anyone. He's gone.
Once more different points of view. IF they wanted to kill him, they would had just killed him, not turn him to diamond. I bet you he's gonna be back later on, its not like we haven't seen dwarves made of stone, metal, ice, and earth before. What's to stop us from seeing Diamond Dwarfs in the future?
He's also my favorite character, therefore I'm a little irritated that you just toss him aside like he's nothing.
I can understand that, but you also need to understand how irritating it is for me to get attached to a horde character only to see him go evil, and die. That is ALWAYS worse than going neutral, because if they are neutral, they at least have SOME role to play in future stories, given that they are ALIVE. Dead is dead, and it means their role in the story is over for good. And if they come back, if they're horde, its only so they can die again.
THAT is irritating for me lil' bro.
Tirion turned neutral, Darion turned neutral
Neutral > Dead. At least neutral people can still be a part of the story, and they can still go back to their old factions, as proven with Thrall's brief neutrality.
Ner'zhul was specifically Alliance before turning evil
O_o what? dude, ner'zhul was an orc. When did an orc ever was a part of the alliance? Arthas was Alliance, but not Ner'zhul.
Sylvanas was originally nominally Alliance before going Forsaken and betraying them.
its not like she hasn't screwed us over or anything....... wait a second..........DAMMIT!!!........ >_<
To soothe tensions, here's an olive branch: Come on
create your own ogre.
Edit: Also, I'd like to preface my posts, now that I think about it. I sound a lot more angry than I actually am. I kinda debate everyone the same way, so I'm not mad at you guys or anything.
I can understand this. I often sound way passionate about this stuff too, often to the point where I sometimes offend people without meaning to. If you say you're not angry I believe you bro =)
Post by
Monday
And that wouldn't leave out the soldiers of Lordaeron who went along with Arthas purge of Stratholme as well.
I don't deny that. 'course, they all died in Northrend and were raised up as Scourge (and probably killed again), so it's kind of a moot point.
As I said, I see Doomhammer as an Anti-Hero; out of all of the Dark Horde, he's the only one who tried his best with what was he was given to keep his people alive.
The point though, is that all of the Dark Horde are 'war criminals' for fighting that war.
Sure. Let me expound on the story of Trapp a little bit: He was the leader of the Reserve 101 Police Battalion. He was well loved by his men, who referred to him as "Papa Trapp." By all accounts, he was a kind, generous fellow. Middle ages, had a family back home.
However, his unit was used as one of the functionaries of the Holocaust. They were sent around to various cities within their precinct, where they cleared the ghettos of any Jews and shot them all. They did this in multiple cities.
Now, Trapp hated what he had to do. Absolutely hated it. He broke down the first time they had to clear out a city (nearly 2,000 people shot, if I remember right). He let any officers who didn't want to participate in this atrocity go and do other things, like guard the marketplace. He also stopped his junior officers from persecuting anyone who shirked duty when forced to kill Jews.
He did the best with what he had.
He was also, by all definitions, a villain and a monster, who was killed for the slaughter of thousands of innocents.
I hope you can see the parallel.
Old Iconic Figures for alliance = most are actually alive. Sure SOME of them are no longer alliance, but they're alive.
Like who? Honestly, which iconic figures from the first three games, barring Jaina, are still alive (and around)?
O_o what? dude, ner'zhul was an orc. When did an orc ever was a part of the alliance? Arthas was Alliance, but not Ner'zhul.
Whoops. Meant Kel'thuzad.
Post by
Adamsm
There is a parallel to it of course. But then again, we are talking about a fictional character here, and one who did 'redeem' himself at a later date. And was part of the redemption for the Orcs; yes you can just look at the evil acts, and decide to label them one way, but he felt remorse for what was done while the Legion were under the sway of the Legion.
Post by
Monday
This is my whole point though: they're not complete monsters. They're people. They're people with hopes and dreams and loves that did absolutely terrible things and should be labeled "villains" because that's what they are.
Post by
Adamsm
All depends on perspective then; Doomhammer is a hero to the Horde after all.
Post by
Rankkor
Like who? Honestly, which iconic figures from the first three games, barring Jaina, are still alive?
Khadgar. Alleria*. Turalyon*. Dannath. Khurdran. Varian. Greymane. Jaina's Brother*. Tyrande. Malfurion. Vereesa. Tirion^. Modera. Darion^. Want me to go on?
(*) These figures are missing, but NOT confirmed dead. Until they are, they still have a role to play in the story. Unlike someone who's dead, whom we KNOW has no more role to play in the story. And in case they come back, if they were horde, 99.99% is just so they can die again.
(^) These figures are neutral, but NOT dead, and so still have a potential role to play in the story. Plus as seen before with former-neutral figures, just because they are neutral TODAY doesn't negate the always present-posibility of going back sometime tomorrow.
Now you name me iconic figures of the horde in the first 3 games that are still alive.
Post by
morginar
Like who? Honestly, which iconic figures from the first three games, barring Jaina, are still alive?
Tyrande, Malfurion, Maiev, Shandris, Muradin bronzebeard, mr Trollbane, Khadgar, Dwarf dude in shadowmoon, Medivh (arguably).
Horde dead heroes:
Keal'thas (leader of sin'dorei, a horde race), Grom, Gul'dan, Doomhammer, Cho'gall, Deathwing, Sen'jin, One eyed amani, More orc warlords... Did I miss anyone from WC-1-2?
Post by
Rankkor
Like who? Honestly, which iconic figures from the first three games, barring Jaina, are still alive?
Tyrande, Malfurion,
Maiev
, Shandris,
Muradin bronzebeard
, mr Trollbane, Khadgar, Dwarf dude in shadowmoon, Medivh (arguably).
@bolded part: I didn't included Maiev because she's effectively gone villain now. She's no longer a part of the alliance, and no longer neutral. IF we ever see her again, its gonna be to put her down.
@Underlined Part: I can't believe I forgot about Mister Beard himself T_T SHAME ON ME!!!!!.
Post by
Adamsm
You know, thinking on Zul'jin...I honestly can't blame him for what he attempted in BC for the original ZA. After all, the Dark Horde found him captured by High Elves, who were intending to kill him at that point. And then, he was captured again, and held prisoner for some time; during that time, the High Elves tortured him repeatedly and burned out his eye. He chopped off his arm to escape and it wouldn't grow back. And he turned on the Horde because they failed him too.
Also being a troll, you just kinda have to feel bad about him in general.
Post by
Monday
Jaina's Brother*
Uh, last I checked he was burned to a crisp by some orcish dragon riders.
Modera
...did she actually do anything? She wasn't from any of the games, that I can tell (which is what I'm referring to).
Now you name me iconic figures of the horde in the first 3 games that are still alive.
Thrall, Vol'jin, Drek'thar, Rexxar, Baine (who was around in Frozen Throne), Rokhan, Garona, Teron Gorefiend, Eitrigg, Bovan, Sylvanas, the entirety of everyone in WoD...
Edit: Medivh (arguably).
Uh, he sort of opened the Dark Portal. I don't think the Alliance likes him very much.
Post by
morginar
Like who? Honestly, which iconic figures from the first three games, barring Jaina, are still alive?
Tyrande, Malfurion,
Maiev
, Shandris,
Muradin bronzebeard
, mr Trollbane, Khadgar, Dwarf dude in shadowmoon, Medivh (arguably).
@bolded part: I didn't included Maiev because she's effectively gone villain now. She's no longer a part of the alliance, and no longer neutral. IF we ever see her again, its gonna be to put her down.
@Underlined Part: I can't believe I forgot about Mister Beard himself T_T SHAME ON ME!.
Though beards survival was cliche derp,
And Maiev might return to kill a metzhenoid sue. And be a saviour of elvenkin. Realy hope some elves start badmouthing mister chicken wings.
Post by
Adamsm
She has two brothers Funden; the one who died during the Second War which is what set off the Admiral....but Tandred is still alive and well in Kul Tiras, ruling the lands.
Maiev went insane and started to kill the Highborne Night Elves; her brother turned on her, so she'll only return when it's time to kill her off.
Post by
Monday
She has two brothers Funden; the one who died during the Second War which is what set off the Admiral....but Tandred is still alive and well in Kul Tiras, ruling the lands.
Ah, I see.
Post by
Rankkor
Jaina's Brother*
Uh, last I checked he was burned to a crisp by some orcish dragon riders.
Was he? I wasn't aware of that.
Modera
...did she actually do anything? She wasn't from any of the games, that I can tell (which is what I'm referring to).
Fair enough. Though whether or not she did anything is irrelevant, she's still an alliance character dating back to the second war that is still alive, and still a part of the alliance.
Now you name me iconic figures of the horde in the first 3 games that are still alive.
Thrall, Vol'jin, Drek'thar, Rexxar, Baine (who was around in Frozen Throne), Rokhan, Garona, Eitrigg, Sylvanas.
Fair enough. Do notice however that save for 2, EVERYONE in that list is from Warcraft 3. From the first 2 games we have nobody. Can you say the same?
Teron Gorefiend
2 things.
1: he's dead. Why are you including him, I have no idea.
2: even when he wasn't dead, he was not horde, and he was not neutral, he was a villain, he was with the Illidari in the black temple.
Bovan
Who the hell is that?
the entirety of everyone in WoD...
Those are not part of the horde, and they're not neutral, in case you forgot, we're going back to KILL THEM ALL.
And if you wanna include them, I'll say that you get A LOT of people from WoD back too. Except in your case we're NOT gonna kill them, and they are going to join your side (including people like Raastalan, Akama, Nobundo, and SEVERAL more). From our side, we barely have the members of the Frostwolf Tribe. Which other than Drek'thar, Draka, and Durotar, the rest are new nobodies.
Post by
Monday
Fair enough. Do notice however that save for 2, EVERYONE in that list is from Warcraft 3. From the first 2 games we have nobody. Can you say the same?
Right, because the first two games were made with the Old Horde specifically as villains. They weren't redeemed until the Third War. I don't see why this is an issue.
2: even when he wasn't dead, he was not horde, and he was not neutral, he was a villain, he was with the Illidari in the black temple.
That's right, he was a boss. I forgot.
But he WAS Horde. He joined the Illidari, sure, but he started as the leader of the Horde's death knights. He worked specifically for Gul'dan.
Who the hell is that?
He helped Rexxar rescue Baine in TFT.
Though whether or not she did anything is irrelevant, she's still an alliance character dating back to the second war that is still alive, and still a part of the alliance.
In that case, let me add: Fenris Wolfbrother, Varok Saurfang, Nazgrel, Rehgar Earthfury, Rommath, Lor'themar Theron, Koltira Deathweaver and Lady Liadrin.
Post by
morginar
How about making a list of the hero characters from WC1-3 abd list their faction and their status?
For example:
Keal'thas horde dead
Muradin alliance alive
And then a head count in the end.
Just to make all happy.
Post by
Rankkor
But he
WAS
Horde. He joined the Illidari, sure, but he started as the leader of the Horde's death knights. He worked specifically for Gul'dan.
Was. Then he wasn't and we killed him. If you look closely that's a pattern that repeats annoyingly often for Horde characters. And while its known to happen to the alliance too (Arthas, Benedictus, Maiev) its NOWHERE near as common. When the alliance "loses" a character its usually due to that character going neutral, rather than going villain and dying.
In that case, let me add: Fenris Wolfbrother, Varok Saurfang, Nazgrel, Rehgar Earthfury, Rommath, Lor'themar Theron, Koltira Deathweaver and Lady Liadrin.
Hey I wasn't done, there were quite a lot of low-class schmucks in the alliance dating back to the second war that are all still alive today.
Also, I'm kinda fuzzy about you including the blood elves on that list. Sure they're horde characters now, but those were all alliance characters during the first and second war.
Right, because the first two games were made with the Old Horde specifically as villains. They weren't redeemed until the Third War. I don't see why this is an issue.
It may not be an issue for you but it is for me. Hence why I said we had different perspectives. All I'm saying (and this is what originated this debate) is that the supposedly dreadful fate of losing alliance iconic figures to neutrality, while annoying, is not as bad as the all too frequent fate of iconic horde figures to simply die off.
At least yours can still be a part of the story, or even go back from neutrality. But what can you do with someone who's dead? Kill him again?
Post by
Monday
Hey I wasn't done, there were quite a lot of low-class schmucks in the alliance dating back to the second war that are all still alive today.
I didn't know any of those guys I just listed were "low class shmucks."
Also, I'm kinda fuzzy about you including the blood elves on that list. Sure they're horde characters now, but those were all alliance characters during the first and second war.
Then
he wasn't
they weren't and we kill
ed him
them.
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