This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Rankkor
The whole alliance vs horde thing is old, tierd and boring wc2.2
I agree.
Meanwhile,
Here is a map of Draenor
.
And one of the datamined conversations made me laugh, simply because its obviously a placeholder:
"
Khadgar
: Prepare to heroically CTRL-E through the portal with me!"
lol :P
Also:
More evidence of alliance and horde working together: On the Dark Portal event, Khadgar and Thrall are working side by side to secure it and seal it to protect Azeroth
Post by
Adamsm
Pity Khadgar is a neutral character(working with the Naaru in Shattrah) and not Alliance tied anymore /sigh
And since we're going back to Orcs vs Humans, we'll see the war reignite at some point.
Post by
Snake387
Yes it will if there is no war. Think about this for a second: Forsaken can't procreate. Forsaken are at war. Forsaken lose people during war. Forsaken need to replenish their numbers or else die out of attrition. War is over. Forsaken no longer lose people (Remember, they don't die of old age). Forsaken no longer need to raise more people to replace their lost people since they're no longer losing people.
Forsaken can still rot (something Sylvanas is somehow immune to...), and if they lose, say all of their limbs, or a head, they're not going to be much use to the forsaken.
The horde invaded gilneas to secure a breach into Silverpine Forest that could (And was) exploited by the alliance if they wanted to invade. Sylvanas' use of the plague and the valks were neither sanctioned, nor even known by the rest of the horde high command.
What, you mean apart from the Orc general in Gilneas when she used the plague, and the Orcs who aided Sylvanas ith their airship? I also recall no meaningful repercussions against the forsaken for using the plague and the valks.
Yes they will if they want the peace to stick. IF they refuse, the horde can simply cut off their support and then let the alliance exterminate them. Maybe even join the fray themselves and help the alliance finish them off, since the orcs are not exactly on friendly terms with the forsaken, both for the wrathgate, and other things they've done.
Exterminating the forsaken isn't a choice for the Horde, since they're back to the small band of survivors they were in Vanilla and need the Forsaken simply because of the Forsaken's numbers and thus military might. The rest of the Horde are rather few.
Tauren? They were almost extinct at the start of Vanilla and all of the wars could hardly have been good to their numbers.
Trolls? Again, they were always small to start with, but they were also relentlessly picked on in Garrosh's reign, being persecuted and killed, and were also a pretty big part of the Horde rebellion. And again, the wars could hardly have been good to their numbers, and their civil wars against the more wild trolls.
Goblins? Enough only escaped to fit on an isle and due to their explosive designs they have a high mortality rate. Although they do breed rather quickly.
Orcs? Garrosh's forces were made up entirely of Orcs save for a few token blood elves and goblins, and Garrosh's forces lost, so this would obviously have a rather large effect on their numbers. Not to mention, again, the wars they've been in, and that most of the Orcs on Garrosh's side were soldiers, and the rest of the soldiers completed the rebellion.
Blood Elves? They suffered
heavy
losses to the scourge, due to the 90% death percentage and then a percentage of that being taken to help the Alliance, which meant that their numbers weren't that big. Then, getting back the Sunwell, the Purge of Dalaran and exploitation of them as expedables by Garrosh not exactly helping their already few numbers.
Forsaken? They arguably made the most out of the war, raising most of the human Alliance soldiers who died in the Eastern Kingdoms so the Horde aren't exactly going to cut of all ties with them as that would just make them extremely vulnerable to the Alliance.
The whole alliance vs horde thing is old, tierd and boring wc2.2
Well the name of the game
is
World of
Warcraft
, not World of Becoming Neutral and Killing Orcs Without Plot Armor
Post by
morginar
And since we're going back to Orcs vs Humans, we'll see the war reignite at some point.
Going back? Did you miss Pandaria? It wasn't orc vs nelf or human vs undead (Vanilia conflicts). It was pure orc vs human (WC1-2).
Pity Khadgar is a neutral character(working with the Naaru in Shattrah) and not Alliance tied anymore /sighNot like he has a history with working with half-orcs no no. If anything he is tolerant of the horde becouse of Garona. Atleast he is alive compared to horde characters. Alliance go neutral while horde goes raid boss.
Well the name of the game is World of Warcraft, not World of Becoming Neutral and Killing Orcs Without Plot ArmorWorked in TBC.
Looks like there will be a underwater section of Zangar acording to the map. And there is a lot of Dreanei villages, probably a few neutral ones. Considering the only orc clan to be friendly is Frostwolf. And we horde do need our quest hubs. So the orc villages are presumbly hostile to both.
And throne of Kli'j is wierd...
And at the backside of the dark portal to be. Is that a Altar of Storms? I though they where demonic? And the name was just a referance to the stormreavers rather than a shamanistic storm.
Post by
Rankkor
Pity Khadgar is a neutral character(working with the Naaru in Shattrah) and not Alliance tied anymore /sigh
No he is not. Thrall was neutral during cata, and working with the Earthen Ring. Big frikking deal. Khadgar is still a member of the Kirin Tor, which is a part of Dalaran, which is a member of the alliance. In fact, he's the main alliance questgiver in WoD along with Maraad.(A fresh change of pace from the trifecta of Varian/Anduin/Jaina plot-centric stories)
And since we're going back to Orcs vs Humans, we'll see the war reignite at some point.
You got a source for that? Because WoD isn't Orcs vs Humans. its Humans and Orcs, vs Iron Orcs.
Forsaken can still rot (something Sylvanas is somehow immune to...), and if they lose, say all of their limbs, or a head, they're not going to be much use to the forsaken.
And they fight that with the shadow magic of the shadow priests. Forsaken are immortal, they wont die of old age, only when slain in battle. Also, Hecular lost his head. he's still just fine.
What, you mean apart from the Orc general in Gilneas when she used the plague, and the Orcs who aided Sylvanas ith their airship?
All of which were troops under her command. I'm talking about the horde high command. The warchief himself, and the other racial leaders. They all loaned troops to her for the Gilnean front and she used them as she pleased.
I also recall no meaningful repercussions against the forsaken for using the plague and the valks.
There wasn't enough time for any since there was a war going on, but Garrosh had made it clear to Sylvanas that her use of the Valkyr would warrant repercussions from him once the war was over (he wasn't gonna do it while he still needed them)
Also this made the forsaken lose a lot of support and sympathy with the rest of the horde, who condemned her actions, and caused the Frostwolves to refuse to aid the forsaken against the Stormpike invasion on Hillsbrad.
Exterminating the forsaken isn't a choice for the Horde, since they're back to the small band of survivors they were in Vanilla and need the Forsaken simply because of the Forsaken's numbers and thus military might. The rest of the Horde are rather few.
They don't need that if there's no war going on. Understand that the horde is in a pretty bad shape right now. If the forsaken antagonize the alliance, and the horde rally behind them, all they'll do is lose. If the alliance antagonizes the forsaken, then they'll defend their allies and go down fighting, but the rest of the horde isn't gonna go into an unnecessary war just because the forsaken can't keep their cool.
Well the name of the game is World of
Warcraft
And I hate it when people bring up this stupid argument. You can have a war in warcraft without it being between the horde and the alliance. The Third War was by far THE most devastating war the world had ever seen up to that point, and it made the first 2 wars look like a schoolyard fight. And it wasn't Horde vs Alliance. It was Alliance and Horde vs Legion.
You can have a war in world of warcraft without it being the same tired war between red vs blue.
Post by
Rankkor
And I swear on this day I shall make it my mission to obtain
this
weapon when the expansion goes live
Post by
morginar
And I hate it when people bring up this stupid argument. You can have a war in warcraft without it being between the horde and the alliance. The Third War was by far THE most devastating war the world had ever seen up to that point, and it made the first 2 wars look like a schoolyard fight. And it wasn't Horde vs Alliance. It was Alliance and Horde vs Legion.
Did you even play WC3? It was Alliance, Horde and Night elves (Powerfull enought to stand toe to toe with the other factions) Vs Burning Legion.
Post by
Rankkor
Did you even play WC3? It was Alliance, Horde and Night elves (Powerfull enought to stand toe to toe with the other factions) Vs Burning Legion.
dude :P I know. I was simplifying the argument because some people seem obsessed with thinking that WARcraft is only related to WAR when its Horde and Alliance killing each other. I pointed out that the Third War was pretty big, and it was Horde and Alliance (and other factions) joining together against a bigger foe. And it was awesome.
Post by
Adamsm
Khadgar is still a member of the Kirin Tor, which is a part of Dalaran, which is a member of the alliance. Only recently; up to 5.3, Dalaran was neutral, and Khadgar was neutral...and I doubt he's going to suddenly rejoin the Alliance, because the Alliance doesn't get the heroes back after they go neutral.
Edit: If he does come back I'll be pleasantly surprised though.
You got a source for that? Because WoD isn't Orcs vs Humans. its Humans and Orcs, vs Iron Orcs.You just said it yourself there Rank; Alliance vs Iron Orcs.
And I'm still hoping that there won't be any Horde/Alliance over lap, and let the Alliance have their own quest lines.
Post by
Rankkor
Khadgar is still a member of the Kirin Tor, which is a part of Dalaran, which is a member of the alliance. Only recently; up to 5.3, Dalaran was neutral, and Khadgar was neutral...and I doubt he's going to suddenly rejoin the Alliance, because the Alliance doesn't get the heroes back after they go neutral.
Dont take this the wrong way bro, you know I love you but: Oh for the love of god, cry me a river. At least your iconic figures are still alive and are still heroes. Look at our long list of iconic classing heroes........ wait no, never mind, they're all dead, gone after a massive villainous breakdown. Or on their way to becoming obvious villains later on (Sylvanas)
You got a source for that? Because WoD isn't Orcs vs Humans. its Humans and Orcs, vs Iron Orcs.You just said it yourself there Rank; Alliance vs Iron Orcs.
Actually I said Alliance AND Horde vs Iron Orcs.
That's a pretty big difference right there.
And I'm still hoping that there won't be any Horde/Alliance over lap, and let the Alliance have their own quest lines.
They can have their own questlines without having to go to war with the horde. Just because they join forces to battle a common foe doesn't mean they can't have separate stories each side.
Like I said on that scenario, its pretty obvious its an alliance story, and the horde are only there so horde players can experience it too (rather than resort to the "Narrator telling a tale" framing device used for the 5.1 and 5.3 scenarios in MoP)
Post by
Monday
At least your iconic figures are still alive and are still heroes. Look at our long list of iconic classing heroes........ wait no, never mind, they're all dead, gone after a massive villainous breakdown.
I was unaware that Thrall, Vol'jin and Saurfang were all dead or villains.
'cause then you look at the Alliance side:
Turalyon: Gone
Khadgar: Neutral
Arthas: Evil
Uther: Dead
Magni: Turned to stone
Alliera: Gone, most likely dead.
Dalaran: Entirety was neutral until recently.
Antonidas: Dead
And so on and so forth. Both sides have lost heroes, but God I hate it when one side or the other is like: YOUR SIDE HASN'T SUFFERED NEARLY AS BAD AS MINE.
Post by
Adamsm
The War will come back; that's the largest problem with having a game based on two factions, especially as one as mired in conflict like Warcraft is. After all, there are new battle grounds coming out in WoD, so some aspect of the war is still going on.
Post by
Rankkor
At least your iconic figures are still alive and are still heroes. Look at our long list of iconic classing heroes........ wait no, never mind, they're all dead, gone after a massive villainous breakdown.
I was unaware that Thrall, Vol'jin and Saurfang were all dead or villains.
'cause then you look at the Alliance side:
Turalyon: Gone
Khadgar: Neutral
Arthas: Evil
Uther: Dead
Magni: Turned to stone
Alliera: Gone, most likely dead.
Dalaran: Entirety was neutral until recently.
Antonidas: Dead
And so on and so forth. Both sides have lost heroes, but God I hate it when one side or the other is like: YOUR SIDE HASN'T SUFFERED NEARLY AS BAD AS MINE.
I said it once, and I'll say it again: Do you really wanna tally up how many heroes per side have died? cuz I'll do it. I may not like it but I'll do it, and you'll find that list to be not what you think it is.
The alliance has lost heroes, I'm not saying they haven't. But at least most of the heroes you "lose" are still alive as neutral. Meanwhile when we lose someone, its due to death, after undergoing massive villainification.
Also cute that you list Turalyon as "gone" when he's not anywhere near dead. He's still out there and when he returns, he's undoubtly gonna be alliance. Even if he's not, he's still alive. Unlike our iconic figures which are
DEAD
. And we're going back to re-kill them all again.
Post by
Monday
I said it once, and I'll say it again: Do you really wanna tally up how many heroes per side have died? cuz I'll do it. I may not like it but I'll do it, and you'll find that list to be not what you think it is.
Do it. Make sure the list is comprehensive.
The alliance has lost heroes, I'm not saying they haven't. But at least most of the heroes you "lose" are still alive as neutral.
Did you even read my list?
Meanwhile when we lose someone, its due to death, after undergoing massive villainification.
Like who? Garrosh? Ner'zhul and Gul'dan don't count, since they were always villains, as were people like Blackhand and Doomhammer.
Also cute that you list Turalyon as "gone" when he's not anywhere near dead.
He's still out there and when he returns, he's undoubtly gonna be alliance.
Even if he's not, he's still alive.
See above. Last we saw, he jumped through a portal on the collapsing Draenor. It's entirely possible that he died in the resulting planet he jumped into.
Unlike our iconic figures which are DEAD. And we're going back to re-kill them all again.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about heroes. Those old iconics that are back in Draenor? Most of them are
villains
. They were in Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 and will be again.
Post by
Adamsm
DoomhammerIs an anti-hero at best and anti-villain at worse, who without him, Thrall wouldn't have the sensor of honour and strength that he does. Doomhammer did invade Lordaeron, but he did so because he didn't really have a choice; his people were steadily going insane due to the Lust, and they couldn't return to their dying world. And of course, he helped to free his people alongside Thrall till he was stabbed in the back by Durnholde forces...literally, as one of them shoved a pike through his back and nearly had it burst out the front of his armour; and he still killed his killer and the other 4 men that had attacked him.
Post by
Monday
He also mercilessly slaughtered the draenei AND the citizenry of Stormwind, imprisoned and forced Alextrasza to be raped repeatedly, tortured Garona and burned the forests of Quel'thalas.
Post by
Rankkor
*sighs*
Benzene, I love you too little bro', I really do, but I think you need to take a small step back.
Did you even read my list?
Yes I did. Did you?
You listed dalaran in there, even though they're alliance. (If you wanna go about how they were neutral for a while, so what? so was Thrall. Our warchief. THE founder of the horde.)
You listed Khadgar in there, even though he's alive AND alliance. (he's leading the alliance into WoD!Draenor, and is the main alliance quest-giver for the entire expansion along with Maraad)
You listed Turalyon in there, even though his "death" is not confirmed.
You listed Alleria in there, even though her "death" is also not confirmed.
You listed Magni in there, even though his "death" is questionable at best.
Pretty much the only valid entries were Arthas, Antonidas, and Uther. Even then, Uther got to make a cameo in WoTLK from beyond the grave, and WITHOUT going evil, along with Terenas.
To those 3 I raise Nazgrim, Zul'jin, and Doomhammer. And I'm only adding 3 to be fair, I could just add 12 off the top of my head.
It's entirely possible that he died in the resulting planet he jumped into.
No its not. Blizzard doesn't make it a habit of killing off major characters offscreen. When they die (if they die) they do so in an overly dramatic way (only to have a 30/70 chance to come back alive, maybe sane, maybe insane)
I don't know what fate transpired to Alleria and Turalyon, and I also don't know what will they do when they return, but there are 2 things I am absolutely certain beyond shadow of any doubt:
1: they WILL return.
2: they WONT die offscreen.
Like who? Garrosh? Ner'zhul and Gul'dan don't count, since they were always villains, as were people like Blackhand and Doomhammer.
I'd address the doomhammer bit, but Adams already did it for me.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about heroes. Those old iconics that are back in Draenor? Most of them are villains. They were in Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 and will be again.
I was talking about Iconic Figures. Iconic figures for the alliance tend to be heroes, and tend to live, and tend to either stick to the alliance, or go neutral.
Iconic Figures for the horde tend to be villains, tend to die, and tend to either backstab the rest of the horde, or worse, drag us down with them.
Post by
Rankkor
Understand that I'm not whining about "blah blah, your side is treated better than mine". I'm countering Adams' point that he's sick and tired of his iconic figures going neutral.
I'm responding with: It could be worse. They could suffer the fate of OUR iconic figures. You think that's a better alternative?
Post by
Monday
Benzene, I love you to little bro', I really do, but I think you need to take a small step back.
I think we all do, but since nobody else follows this advice, I don't see why I should either.
Iconic Figures for the horde tend to be villains, tend to die, and tend to either backstab the rest of the horde, or worse, drag us down with them.
Because they started the first 3 games as villains (note: W3 they were both heroes and villains. I count Grom as a villain in that, even if he redeemed himself in the end).
You listed Turalyon in there, even though his "death" is not confirmed.
You listed Alleria in there, even though her "death" is also not confirmed.
You listed Magni in there, even though his "death" is questionable at best.
Turalyon and Alleria are gone and have been missing for almost 20 years now (IRL time. Beyond the Dark Portal was released in 1996). I count them as gone, and therefore no longer relevant.
Magni was turned to stone. He is no longer around to do anything, though supposedly his spirit may be hanging around Ironforge. Either way, his body is physically dead and he doesn't interact with anyone. He's gone.
He's also my favorite character, therefore I'm a little irritated that you just toss him aside like he's nothing.
To those 3 I raise Nazgrim, Zul'jin, and Doomhammer. And I'm only adding 3 to be fair, I could just add 12 off the top of my head.
Zul'jin was never really part of the Horde to begin with. Sure, he joined them, but only as a means to get land and to kill elves. His betrayal wasn't even really a betrayal. He only turned "evil" because he wanted to kill the elves (who were Alliance heroes that "turned evil" in their eyes, another to add to the list) and found them allied to the Horde.
And on that note, Tirion turned neutral, Darion turned neutral, Bolvar was murdered, Alexandros turned evil (as did all the Four Horseman, for that matter). Ner'zhul was specifically Alliance before turning evil, Sylvanas was originally nominally Alliance before going Forsaken and betraying them. The Scarlet Crusade turned evil after being specifically Alliance, etc.
There's a huge list of Alliance heroes and groups that have turned evil or died. There is also a huge Horde list. From what I've seen, neither is really bigger than the other. So let's all stop acting like it is (unless you actually provide the list like I asked).
I'm responding with: It could be worse. They could suffer the fate of OUR iconic figures. You think that's a better alternative?
But what is that fate? Most were introduced as villains back when the Horde WERE villains. Whining about that seems incredibly silly, since they were never mean to be heroes until the end of Warcraft 3.
Post by
Adamsm
He also mercilessly slaughtered the draenei AND the citizenry of Stormwind, imprisoned and forced Alextrasza to be raped repeatedly, tortured Garona and burned the forests of Quel'thalas.
Actually....not completely: He was part of the Dark Horde, but then again, you cannot name someone from the Dark Horde who
didn't
kill Draenei, even Durotan and the Frostwolves fell for the Legion trick. The Stormwind slaughtered started with Blackhand, who Doomhammer killed shortly after that; at that point, there was no way to get the fel-touched Dark Horde to stop the slaughter as they would have turned on him and tore him limb from limb. Deathwing and Zuluhead set that up; Doomhammer saw a weapon and went with it. Doomhammer did beat Garona, but that was shortly after the death of Llane and he did so to find out what the Shadow Council plan was; Gul'dan did far worse to her. But yes, he gave the order to torch the Forest.
Doomhammer is on the same level as Arthas in all honestly.
Edit: Magni was turned to stone. He is no longer around to do anything, though supposedly his spirit may be hanging around Ironforge. Either way, his body is physically dead and he doesn't interact with anyone. He's gone.
As of Dawn of the Aspects, we know he's still alive in some way, since Thrall sensed a massive power stirring in Dun Morogh, and it was in a protective way. At some point, we'll probably end up seeing him back and free of the Curse of the Mountain.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.