This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Snake387
Still not their fault in that mind set, since Grom took the blood a second time to help 'protect' his people from the ravages of the Night Elves and the Demi-God Cenarius.
But Grommash knew that he was taking the demon blood, did it out of his own choice when he could have used other means or just retreated and was even warned by a guy saying, "I don't want to be a slave to the Burning Legion again."
My point is, the Council of Nobles have always been a bunch of @#$%s; Onyxia just played up their own selfish desires/thoughts, which is what caused them to renege on paying off the Stonemasons, touching off the riots and the death of the Queen of Stormwind.
You seem to forget the Stonemasons who kept asking for more money and extravagant prices and to be paid right at that moment, not even being able to wait. And the Alliance paid good to their promise by paying those who didn't join the Defias after Onyxia died.
Post by
Adamsm
But Grommash knew that he was taking the demon blood, did it out of his own choice when he could have used other means or just retreated and was even warned by a guy saying, "I don't want to be a slave to the Burning Legion again."Retreat where exactly? They were on a new continent, their people were being picked off by barely seen archers in the shadows of the forest, and then a massive 13 foot half man/elf half deer shows up and starts slaughtering his people.
Um...No not even close
. The masons just wanted to be paid; the Nobles refused outright to pay them.
Post by
Skreeran
It's actually a bit funny. They never did end up paying any of them. They killed or imprisoned all of the Defias and never gave as much as even a public apology.
Post by
Adamsm
It's actually a bit funny. They never did end up paying any of them. They killed or imprisoned all of the Defias and never gave as much as even a public apology.
There's this too.
Post by
Lordplatypus
The defias already tried to destroy stormwind. Considering all they done, I'm suprised they weren't all put to the sword.
More importantly, drinking demon blood after commiting genocide and then getting high off it so you decide to commit genocide again is comparable to not negotiating because YOU WERE UNDER MIND CONTROL.
Yeah, the horde got what's basically a drunken idiot spree, the House of Nobles was under dierect mind control.
There's a damn difference.
Post by
Adamsm
the House of Nobles was under dierect mind control.No they weren't; Onyxia played them like fools, but considering how they already felt about the 'lesser' people, she merely increased their hatred/egos and all the rest.
Onyxia only made a situation worse; the only person she actively controlled was Wrynn....after setting up the Nobles vs the Stonemasons.
Post by
Rankkor
the House of Nobles was under dierect mind control.
Its funny how you keep bringing that excuse up when its an alliance figure under said mind-control, but when its a horde figure under mind-control, somehow they don't count.
And besides, why get so upset about it? the alliance had no money to pay the stonemasons, big effing deal, they had just barely survived a massive war, massive reconstruction efforts, funded a massive expedition that yielded absolutely no profits whatsoever, manned the construction of the biggest military fortress in history, manned the construction of the largest series of prisons in history, and on top of that there's all the expenses DURING the war.
Is it so surprising that they had no money to pay the stonemasons? why must you insist so much in white-washing it as "Ohhh they did had money, they just didn't gave any cuz they were under mind control"
And for the record, the only person onyxia was mind-controlling was varian. And even then she couldn't make him do whatever she wanted, she's not deathwing after all. All she could do was make him apathetic and do nothing as his kingdom crumbled under his feet.
She simply stirred the pot, playing the outrage of the stonemasons and the arrogance of the house of nobles to pit them against one another.
Would it kill you to admit just once that the alliance CAN make mistakes?
Post by
Snake387
Yeah, the horde got what's basically a drunken idiot spree, the House of Nobles was under dierect mind control.
No, they weren't under DIRECT mind control. Just suggestive mind control. Essentially, she used her influence to make them not want to pay the Stonemasons enough, and did the same to make the Stonemasons demand extravagant sums.
They killed or imprisoned all of the Defias and never gave as much as even a public apology.
I doubt anyone would be in the mood to give a bunch of terrorists (because that's what they essentially are) an apology. And they paid
this bloke.
Post by
Skreeran
Except not really. Onyxia really only politically manipulated the House of Nobles. She didn't mind control them.
She had to get Bolvar to wear a necklace to mind control him, and she was able to influence Varian because of his depression after Tiffin's death. Once he started to get over his depression, she had him split into two personalities and kept the gullible one to manipulate while the other half was kept in slavery.
If she had the power to mind control the entire House of Nobles, one would think that just controlling Varian would have been a little bit easier, mm?
She mainly used politics. Also, politics is a lot less dumb sounding of an excuse than mind control.
Post by
Snake387
Except not really. Onyxia really only politically manipulated the House of Nobles. She didn't mind control them.
That's why I said suggestive mind control, not real mind control but she was just suggestive to both the stonemasons and the House of Nobles and effectively mind controlled them. Sure, she didn't actually force them to do it, but the result was mostly the same as it would be if she did.
Post by
Skreeran
Except it wasn't really anymore suggestive mind control than real life political manipulation. You could make the same argument that the Soviets suggestively mind controlled North Vietnam into forming as a communist state and invading the south.
She didn't need to use magic when she could just exploit the greed and classism that was already there.
Post by
Snake387
Except it wasn't really anymore suggestive mind control than real life political manipulation. You could make the same argument that the Soviets suggestively mind controlled North Vietnam into forming as a communist state and invading the south.
She didn't need to use magic when she could just exploit the greed and classism that was already there.
Well, I count suggestive mind control a lot like brainwashing and other mind tricks, not actual , real, paranormal mind control. And she exploited the greed in both the House of Nobles and the Stonemasons which is what I want to make clear. It wasn't solely the House of Nobles fault, it was the Stonemason's as well.
Post by
Rankkor
If she had the power to mind control the entire House of Nobles, one would think that just controlling Varian would have been a little bit easier, mm?
Exactly. Like I said, she's not deathwing.
Deathwing really did had almost every king in the alliance dancing on his lap, as he flat out told Terenas his plans for world domination, and then used his mind-control to make the king agree with it. But Onyxia had a lot of difficulties just keeping ONE man under control, it was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond her power to keep the entire house of nobles (Which numbers in the hundreds) as well as the entire stonemason guild (Which numbers in the thousands) permanently and constantly under a spell.
Nefarian had the same difficulties, as he wasn't mind-controlling Rend and the Dark Horde, he simply played up the ambitions of Rend and made him think he'd get to rule the world after he conquered it, when in reality Nefarian was just using rend as a pawn.
No different than what Gul'dan was doing to Blackhand (Making him believe he was the leader of the horde, when in reality Blackhand was just a public figurehead), which also WAS NOT mind-control, just typical manipulation.
Classical manipulation can be just as subtle and as efficient as real mind control when the individual you're trying to manipulate is ambitious or egotistical enough.
Post by
Adamsm
And she exploited the greed in both the House of Nobles and the Stonemasons which is what I want to make clear. It wasn't solely the House of Nobles fault, it was the Stonemason's as well.No it wasn't;
Um...No not even close
.
The Stonemasons just wanted to be paid, they did not try to increase the price at all. The entire problem was the House of the Nobles and the fact that they thought they could get away with screwing over the Stonemasons after they did all of that work for them.
Post by
Snake387
The Stonemasons just wanted to be paid, they did not try to increase the price at all. The entire problem was the House of the Nobles and the fact that they thought they could get away with screwing over the Stonemasons after they did all of that work for them.
Since you don't want to read my proof, I'll quote a line for you:
with the House of Nobles only offering meager compensation while the Stonemasons continued to demand extravagant sums
Post by
Adamsm
And since you didn't read the link, let me quote it for you:The Stonemasons Guild was a guild of artisans and builders, similar to the dwarven Royal Stonecutters Union, with Edwin VanCleef as their guildmaster. They built Nethergarde Keep and were later contracted by the Stormwind House of Nobles to rebuild Stormwind City after the Second War. W
hen the building was completed, the nobles refused to pay the workers and ordered the Guild disbanded,
so many left with Edwin VanCleef and formed the Defias Brotherhood.
Edit: In other words, and this is from the comic as well: There isn't any sign that the Stonemasons were attempting to gouge the upper crust of Stormwind, but lots and lots and lots of signs/proof/showing that the Nobles were being arrogant egomaniac arse hats about the fact that they needed to pay.
If you look at it, the Nobles are nearly as bad as the Defias they created, since a large majority cared nothing at all for the 'common' people of Stormwind, and only wanted to increase their own power and wealth...and if that meant screwing over a thousand loyal workers of the Stormwind Stone Mason guild, well so be it.
Seen in the comics, in the quests, in other Lore material.
Post by
Snake387
Well since your article is unsourced, and mine is, I'd say my proof is more trustworthy. For all we know, that article could have been written by any old person who hates the Stonemasons.
the Nobles were being arrogant egomaniac arse hats about the fact that they needed to pay.
After a war that cost money? A lot of money? And that article that I quoted is sourced by a person who read the comic, and unless you want every single page number as proof, that's as sourced as Wowpedia gets.
Post by
Adamsm
Hm...well then:
Defias Brotherhood
from the history section:
The construction was overseen by the House of Nobles, who accepted the help of many artisans and specialists from across the Eastern Kingdoms. The spirit of restoration, hope, and prosperity struck many who decided to volunteer for the great work. Other laborers considered the opportunity of rebuilding as a lucrative government contract; a chance to prove their craftsmanship and start anew. Eager to forge new lives, these craftsmen traveled to Stormwind, many bringing their families at great expense. After the reconstruction was complete, VanCleef met with the nobles. What happened is somewhat unclear; the nobles claim that VanCleef demanded more money than was originally agreed upon, while the Stonemasons maintain that the nobles refused to pay them the promised amount. What is known for sure is that the Stonemasons started a riot that resulted in the accidental death of Queen Tiffin Wrynn and their expulsion from the city. Years later, it would be revealed that the black dragon Onyxia had manipulated both parties in order to turn them against each other.
However..if you notice the last line there: Onyxia had a hand in manipulating them, but the fact is, no matter where you look at it, be it quests, comics or other lore material, they all agree on the same thing: The Nobles were asses. They screwed over the Stone Masons, and they created their own enemy, the Defias. Had they just manned up and paid them, the riot wouldn't have happened, Tiffin would more then likely be alive, and there may not have been almost a decade where Varian did nothing.
Post by
Snake387
Well in that whole text that you quoted (that has no sourcing btw), it doesn't outright say that the House of Nobles were meanies and just says what both sides view to be the truth, nothing about the House of Nobles definitely screwing over the stonemasons.
And if you're going by the Westfall quests, I doubt you'd get a fair viewpoint of things, since most of the people there are hobos who resent the Alliance (not including the soldiers).
Post by
Adamsm
The Nobles are the most corrupt Human group in the game that is not allied with the enemies. They care nothing about themselves, their wealth and their power; everyone else can go jump in a lake. They are a part of the reason come Cata, that there are so many homeless out and about, because they weren't willing to offer assistance.
And Snake, go look at the House of Nobles page; there is quite a bit there about their corruption. Then, check Varian's page and go down to the Nobles section...oh look, more comments about their corruption. Next, go and read the Last Guardian book, where you see that even with the threat of the Horde coming at them, the Nobles could not take time away from their petty squabbles and power grabs. After that, check the comics...since again, their corruption is there. Finally, take a walk through old Wowhead, check the original quest lines regarding the Defias; there are people there who spoke out against the Nobles.
They are, without a doubt, the absolute worst of the Human populace in the land of Azeroth.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.